Thanks for all the info on this thread. I'm not interested in spraying things to death so I guess avoiding vinifera is a good idea as initially planned. I agree there are a ton of awesome tasting fruit you can grow easier anyway. Some are completely new to my palette like the paw paw and I really enjoy them. But one of the only fruit new to me that I haven't been able to appreciate its flavor is the muscadine--I really haven't like it at all the two times I've had it so far--but it must have been suboptimal fruit in terms of ripeness. What muscadine varieties are you enjoying? I heard there are sweets and sours... I think I must have had an unripe sour!!! I might be able to do with the skin and the pits if the flesh was nice--but mine was all bad inside and out. Do you spit the skin? PS You wouldn't even recommend those two vinifera Muscats you like? Even those are big spraying headaches and you don't get much fruit?

I too agree that most vinifera taste good, and even some of the hybrids, such as Foch, which is also my favorite wine grape for food. Franktank, in WI you have to use hybrids, no vinifera. Even last year, terrible summer and all, Frontenac made it to full ripening. I think the hybrids are interesting grapes, with more fruit than vinifera, but more difficult to make into nice wine. As a matter of fact for wine I prefer Frontenac, but only if mixed with some CA grapes for tannins. But the hybrids will generally shine in blends, which is what I do. Scott, if you get organized, a really nice bottle of homemade wine can be had for less than $3. My blends are typically 60% MI -40% CA. CA may be $1/lb for the grapes, and MI, $60/lb (at least locally). So the wine for one 720 ml bottle comes to about $2.30 a bottle. You have to buy from someone who will destem them for you, so you take home just the juice. You have to have friends who will do it with you. Alone, it is a drag. You have to keep track of your bottles so you can reuse them over and over. I use 22 oz. beer bottles with beer caps, which I got from the refund bins. And you have to find a press at a garage sale for $10, though I have seen a number on craigslist for $100 or so. Plus spent grapes make great compost, the one I usually give to the tomatoes. The easiest way to make good wine is to ignore the cultivar and go for the ripest, highest Brix grapes. In the old days, when California Grape in Detroit had the crates outside, it was easy enough: you'd just buy the grapes with the most flies and wasps on. With ripe grapes, it is easy to make good wine, far easier than to make good beer.

No, I made the controlled cross and grew out the seedlings. Late to answer, sorry.

I have an interest in breeding hybrid grapes. I'm from England, we get a lot of hybrids here but too many American ones with labrusca in. I do not consider labrusca much better for cool summers than vinifera. I believe the key to making cool summer tolerant grapes is to cross amurensis with vinifera. Amurensis ripens early and the area has cool to warmish summers and unbeatable cold hardiness. It comes from the Russian far east, not too far from Vitis coignetiae actually. Ivan Michurin's institute developed a lot of grapes from amurensis crosses and they all perform well in Scandinavia, the Baltic states and British Isles. We don't have to worry so much about winter cold here, ripening is the issue but amurensis is very hardy anyway. Amurensis x (labrusca x vinifera) is another potential one Why have you chosen Vitis coignetiae may I ask? It's not usually used to make hybrids (not sure if it just hasn't been tested for such or doesn't make good crosses). Good luck anyway, I hope to start my own project this year.