Here is my opinion (take it for what it is worth). If you want high quality wine, grow wine (vinifera) grapes. If you want the best eating grapes, grow ones specifically bred for that purpose. The problem is that in wine grapes you are looking for small berries with thick skins and ripe, brown seeds. Table grapes are best when large with thin, tender skin and usually preferred without seeds. That's why I grow both.

That being said, decent wine can be made with table grapes, even seedless grapes. You are not likely to get a $30+ bottle from table grapes, but you can definitely make a good, enjoyable wine from any kind of grape. I've even had wine made from rhubarb of all things that was pretty good. A skilled wine maker will have no problem making good wine from any kind of grape, but high quality wine comes from high quality grapes bred for that purpose.

So if you tried eating a Pinot Noir grape it would taste like garbage? Its my favorite wine.

No, I am not saying that wine grapes don't taste good. In fact, most of them are delicious and usually have more concentrated flavor and sugar than table grapes. Pinot Noir tastes very good fresh and has thinner skins than most wine grapes. I just find wine grapes not as enjoyable for fresh eating because most have thick skins, seeds, and small berries. Some (such as Cab and Syrah) can leave your mouth feeling dry if you eat very many of them because of the tannins in the skin and seeds.

If I were looking for a dual purpose grape, I'd lean towards one that I enjoy eating and then try making wine with it.

I was actually shocked the first time mine had any grapes at just how TINY these things are. Much, much smaller than a Concord or Niagra. Basically, about the same size as the wild grapes that grow here in Michigan (I believe the species is V. riparia) -- about the size of a pea.

If i put in some wine grape vines, i'd catch my mother-in-law thinning them late at night...

Might be interesting to try some. I know that vineyards exist here in Wisconsin and we have a few state wineries...so some wine grapes must be able to cope with our climate. What i like is my grape vine (Reliance) has very little insect pressure and i may have room for another after clearing out some stuff.

I don't think you'll have much luck with vinifera, but check out the French-American hybrids, there are many that can easily survive zone5. I really don't know anything about them, I don't know anyone that grows them around here. You can find TONS of info about growing grapes on the winepress forums, even very useful for table grapes.

I found wine grapes very good for cooking jam etc: much more flavor. But most of them are not very exciting for eating. I would say Cayuga White is one grape which is good for both, it is a nice tasty grape fresh (though with seeds), and makes a nice white wine. Muscadines may also be good for both.

Personally I find the $5 a bottle wine I can get locally is better than what I could make so winemaking is not worth it. You spend a huge amount of time and more money to get worse wine. Maybe if you did it on a shoestring budget you could be cheaper, or if you used the same supplies year after year, but it costs $250-$500 to get set up. You also need to put a lot of time into winemaking if you want to beat the $5 bottle. Recently the cheaper wines have gotten a great deal better due to all the accumulated knowledge on grapes, chemistry etc, plus a huge glut of fruit meaning you can get surplus juice thats very good for next to nothing. Thats why the $5 bottle is so much better these days and why its a lot of work for backyard makers to beat it. If you want to make wine I would just buy juice, thats the cheapest way now given the global glut.

Scott

I completely agree with you backyardener. Thank you for your tips. I do agree that wine grapes are always best when it comes to making wine, whereas table grapes are best for raw eating.

To everyone else, there actually are wine grapes which can be eaten raw and table grapes which can be used to make wine but they don't taste as good. But they're good enough though :) So if you plan on growing grape vines, choose wisely whether you will grow wine grapes or table grapes.

I like to eat all wine grapes. They are good tasting. Veeblanc is a good table variety and hardy too. A guy in Canada has a vineyard and sells the cuttings of a lot of these cold hardy varieties. Bert Dunn is his name if people want to know.

I've been growing this for two years now....vigorous but no grapes yet. Anyone have feedback on it's taste for eating, since we are on the subject?

I too agree that most vinifera taste good, and even some of the hybrids, such as Foch, which is also my favorite wine grape for food. Franktank, in WI you have to use hybrids, no vinifera. Even last year, terrible summer and all, Frontenac made it to full ripening.

I think the hybrids are interesting grapes, with more fruit than vinifera, but more difficult to make into nice wine. As a matter of fact for wine I prefer Frontenac, but only if mixed with some CA grapes for tannins. But the hybrids will generally shine in blends, which is what I do.

Scott, if you get organized, a really nice bottle of homemade wine can be had for less than $3. My blends are typically 60% MI -40% CA. CA may be $1/lb for the grapes,
and MI, $60/lb (at least locally). So the wine for one 720 ml bottle comes to about $2.30 a bottle. You have to buy from someone who will destem them for you, so you take home just the juice. You have to have friends who will do it with you. Alone, it is a drag. You have to keep track of your bottles so you can reuse them over and over. I use 22 oz. beer bottles with beer caps, which I got from the refund bins. And you have to find a press at a garage sale for $10, though I have seen a number on craigslist for $100 or so. Plus spent grapes make great compost, the one I usually give to the tomatoes.

The easiest way to make good wine is to ignore the cultivar and go for the ripest, highest Brix grapes. In the old days, when California Grape in Detroit had the crates outside, it was easy enough: you'd just buy the grapes with the most flies and wasps on. With ripe grapes, it is easy to make good wine, far easier than to make good beer.

Gotta go with Scott- you can buy better wine in a five liter box than any home made I've ever had. On the other hand, I have never found any table grapes at any farmers market, fruit stand, grocery store etc. that were within a million miles of what I grow at home. You decide where the opportunity lies.

I'm a little surprised by the negative comments. I have had home made wine that is pretty bad, but I've also had some that was very good. I think it depends on the wine maker, the grapes, and what kind of equipment and techniques are used. As Scott mentioned, it can be a little expensive up front for a good setup. If you are happy with wine that comes in a box or even the sub $5 a bottle garbage, then it is a waste of time to try to make your own for less money.

Here in the wine country of the Napa valley, almost every home owner aspires to make his own "namesake" wine. When you invite someone to dinner he may bring his own private label wine. Under no circumstances serve his wine! It is very difficult to taste a really bad wine without your face showing how bad it is. It is fun to make your own wine, but it is best enjoyed by the winemaker. Al

I am too amazed at the negative comments. My wine is better than any $5 bottle from the store, and costs a lot less. It also has no sulfites. And really, making wine is easy compared to making beer. I dare say that making wine is easier than growing a perfect tomato.

I can't grow grapes. I pulled them out. I grow blackberries and make wine from it.

Also making mead, plum wine, hard cider, blueberry wine, strawberry wine, raisin wine. Don't know how any of it will turn out.

Using old time country wine recipe of fruit, water, sugar and natural yeast. I met a guy in his 90's that learned wine making from his father and he passed down the recipes to me.

Will let you know nesxt year how it all turned out.

Try Seneca.......a most delicious table grape. It also makes a very pleasant white wine.It's an old variety but I don't know the origin. It appears nearly vinifera in character. Only hardy to zone 6 though and very susceptible to mildews. It grows vigorously though and in dry summers, sprays may not be needed. It is my favorite table grape. I was very successful with it when I lived in Jersey (warm zone 6) but I can't grow it in New York (zone 5)
..............Dutchess 12545

keepitlow -- any update on how your fruit wines turned out?