Hello Jane..nice to see a new poster. :-)
So are you still in the midst of getting the trees out? You mean you had 5 mature trees and the weather effected all five? Can you tell us, how much sun will this new planting area receive? Are you trying to screen the street from the house?

pm2

Hi PM2,

Thanks for responding, PM2. Ill try to get pictures posted worth 1,000 words. This corner faces directly south, but pretty much receives sun all day. The area is about 55 long. The thought of not having these pines is still heart-wrenching to me. Regretfully, years ago, someone topped the pines, so none have a leader except the one hemlock at the beginning of the line. One pine is half a tree with one limb, having lost its top to heavy snow years ago. Many times over the years weve had them trimmed (to keep out of the power lines) sprayed, removed wild grape vines, etc. In 1953 Im sure the owner thought 15 from the house was an okay place to plant trees that could reach 150 high, then again, maybe the trees were free and 1984 and 2000 were just George Orwell creations. Nonetheless, here they are today (hopefully pictured below) and are scheduled to be felled this month. My home owner practical side says its the right thing to do, especially considering the liability of 85 tall breaking pines. My nature-loving side is weak and may need a short whiskey to get through the felling.

Yes, we want a border, but because of all those roots, planting or continuing the 120 of white picket fence will be difficult. And, its still a deer trail, so no arborvitae - they already ate 10 in my backyard Emerald var. with tags that stated "Deer Resistant". Uh-huh. There is a bird-dropped, wind-sown variety of things growing underneath the pines; maybe there is an answer under the snow! Anyone else ever have this situation? Thanks for your time.

Kindly,
Jane
Tough time getting pictures in here!

I have a somewhat similar situations. The pines were put in in the sixties as a privacy screen for the backyard (corner lot). Since they weren't really pruned, they are now about 80 ft tall, and have no branches on the lower 10 ft. Right now there are about 3 big branches underneath them that have fallen off during the heavy snows.

If I had to replace them this spring, and I might just decide to, I think the current choice would be some sort of small willow. I've thought through evergreens, which I'd prefer, but finding the right combination of size, hardiness and deer resistance has been hard.

Trying hard to get pics in here. Hope this works
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Hi Jane, and welcome to the forum.

You have a staggering number of plants to choose from, since you have full sun, even with the deer problem. There are links on this forum to sites that list the most deer-resistant shrubs and trees, or you can google that. To narrow down your choices further, you should think about the ultimate size of the plants and decide if you want evergreen or deciduous plants, or a mix. Also we need to know the extent to which you want to screen the house from the road.

It may be that once the pines are gone you will see the space in a new light and your decisions about screening will change, but it's worth thinking about these things from the start.

Assuming that you are looking for a solid screen, the first thing I'd want to know is what height trees/shrubs would be tall enough to screen the house from the cars going by; i.e. are you trying to screen the upper windows or just the first floor?

To determine the height you need, have someone stand out there with a two by four (marked at 1' intervals from the end that's on the ground, and get an actual height measurement by looking out the windows you want to screen.

The height you need does depend directly on where you plant the new things between the house and road. How much actual space is available, from the foundation to the road's shoulder? Presumably there is at least 24', since you say "15 ft. away from the house, about 9 ft. in from a road" but I'm just not sure if you actually have more than 24' since I don't know if you measured from the trunk or from the outer edges of the pines. If you're going to plant something narrower, you will not need to be right on the line where these stumps are, you can plant a staggered double row of shrubs or small trees. This will make the digging much easier, since even when the trunks are ground down the roots will be everywhere and make digging impossible near the old trunks.

I don't live in an area where there are deer, but I've heard that deer will eat anything if they're hungry enough. Young plants are especially tempting and may need to be protected with a ring of heavy "poultry wire" for a few years; that can protect the main stems and branches, and the plants will recover from a little nibbling on the tips.

If you're going with a picket fence, you can use spiked fence post holders that can be hammered into the ground just about anywhere. They are available at most big home centers; we've used them to support lightweight fence panels and they work fine. They probably would not do well with a solid board fence like a stockade fence, though.

I feel sorry for your loss of the pines, and think the best way to recover from it is to tackle the new planting challenge wholeheartedly. This is an opportunity to start fresh in this part of your garden and to fix a mistake made by another gardener long ago.

Please keep us posted!

Rhododendrons grow nicely under dense pine stands around here. House height bushes is not too uncommon. I don't know if that helps or not.

Hello Jane... :-)

I feel your pain. We had a neighbor who took down a full grown perfect specimen of a Sugar Maple that was in a direct line with our kitchen window, without any notice at all. I just looked up from the kitchen sink one day and it was gone. The tears were just streaming down my face and I still find myself feeling annoyed that the pool they put in to replace this wonderful tree, is rarely used. :-( So to lose so many trees between your house and the street..well, I can only imagine how you feel. One shot of whiskey may not be enough when they come to take them down. [g]

Pines do seem to be prone to winter damage. Every winter another neighbor loses more branches of a White Pine that is pretty pathetic looking now.

I agree with what DtD had to say. You will have to grieve the loss of your pines, but unlike my situation, where I cannot go over to the neighbor's yard and plant something else I like in place of the Sugar Maple, you will have the opportunity to try something new that you may end up loving even more than what you started with.

As you are thinking it through and what you might like to see there, keep posting and I am sure you will get more ideas.

pm2

Ooops! I forgot to tell you..have you ever tried www.tinypic.com? I use it all the time to post photos here. Also have you had a fence company come out and evaluate whether they can extend that fence for you? You have a lovely site there and lots of potential!

pm2

Gosh, what a nice group of gardeners! Thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond.

Well, my tree guy just called tomorrow is the day. Any chance you could all come over for the wake? Oh, God, this hurts. Im such a wimp when it comes to trees. Unlike your neighbor PM2, I asked my neighbors what they thought. Everybody said the same thing; okay trees if you look up 40, otherwise we look right through them and it really is a good thing nobody was killed when the big branch came down and covered the street. Most noted that they are not the right trees for the site. Looking on the brighter side, I am trying to consider this slaughter as a new landscaping challenge and think I would like both evergreens and shorter flowering trees, e.g., boxwood up to 6 or so with a couple of pink crabapple trees as a canopy. That way, there would be year-round interest and in the hot summer, the boxwood would perhaps have a bit of shade from the crabapple canopy. Boxwood is poisonous to deer so they know not to eat it (ref. Natl Arboretum). So far they have not touched my dwarf boxwood even though they devoured the hollyhocks a foot away.

Lisa, I have considered raising all of them up 20, but then theyd look like green lollipops and the breakage problem from the top would not be solved. Another branch came down from the top during the last snow and just missed the power lines. If only the trees hadnt been topped. Also, as Lisa suggested, could one remain?alas, they were planted too close together and the interior of each is bare. What I do know is this: the border will be a mixture of something like boxwood and crabapple and the size of each new shrub and tree will be determined after checking my oracle the checkbook. If the oracle has a clear day, perhaps after stump grinding a couple loads of soil would raise the whole planting site. Boxwood has fairly shallow, spreading roots, so that might work. Next to this line of pines are 3 rhododendron now appearing as one "ball", daddymem, 30 yrs old and about 12-14 high. Rhodys are a consideration as well. Almost everything that can be planted in acidic soil is under consideration.

It is truly nice and yes, comforting to find a pleasant, knowledgeable group of folks who offer such good suggestions and in this case, empathy. Many thanks. Ill try to cheer us up by looking at the backyard with some border pines before my piney soap opera gets more dramatic! (hope I get these pics in :) )

Last day
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Up and coming pines on back border...there's hope!
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I'm planning on a pine hedge at my house. Take small white pine saplings that I can find plenty of around here (2-4' tall) plant them in a bit dense (looks like you have a few saplings there now). Fertilize the second year after planting and pick a height to keep trimming them at. I've seen it done and they get really thick and hedge-like. I love the second shot, looks like a slice of heaven.

Jane, your idea of crabapple trees with boxwood, sound lovely. Gorgeous spring bloom and then all the berries that the birds just love! Plus they have some great varieties these days. I just added a very young green mountain boxwood last fall and that is supposed to be taller and narrower than most. I found the boxwood at Bluestone Perennials and when they had their 50% off sale at some point, they were very reasonable. Come to think of it, I saw some boxwoods at another website...in 4" containers for $5. each somewhere. If you are interested, I will try to find it. Certainly not an instant landscape, but some of my boxwood have grown really fast.
That is one gorgeous photo with the light shining through the trees. Great that you will still have pines in the back and hopefully, they are better situated and can grow to their true potential. Nice tree trunk in the foreground, nice fence. Zinnias?

I think you just have to get from the day they take out the pines out front, to the day you have the new plants in place. Since it is only January, you will have all winter to figure out what to put there. I hope you will treat yourself and go out to dinner tonight to your favorite restaurant to take the sting out of the day, maybe?

Hang in there, Jane!!
:-)
pm2

Yes, that does sound like a nice design. I admire your restraint, if it were me I'd be thinking of how many different and completely unrelated species I could cram into the space. I haven't grown crabapples, for some reason I assume they need a lot of spraying to look their best, but that might not be true.

I have quite a bit of boxwood and do like it; if I were starting over though I think I'd use the native holly, Ilex glabra, in its place. It has a slightly more informal look, and as a native it always looks at home (no spikes on the leaves, like other evergreen hollies). Then again, it might be deer candy. My only pests are rabbits, and they seem to leave it alone.

That photo is really wonderful!

Hello!

I am awfully fond of the 'songbird hedge' that the Brooklyn Botanic Garden website describes (link below). It is a beautiful, 4-season combination of native plants, both deciduous and evergreen, that will thrive in sun, give you flowers, fruits and fall colors, and feed the birds. Of course, they don't talk about deer....

Like DtD, I haven't planted any crabs out of concern over susceptibility to a host of diseases.

Keep us posted.

Best,
ML

Thanks, ML, that's a great link.

Well, its over. Theyre gone and the tears are dried. And yes, I had that drink! Thanks, PM2. I have never seen so much sunlight in this house before and weve been here for 33 years. The cat needs sunglasses half way down the hallway. I am grateful to all of you who have followed this new thread and truly thankful for your input.

I am trying to plan properly. This I know already: I loathe the nakedness left in the wake of these felled trees. The house is too bare for us to bear; therefore, we will be putting in mature shrubs and trees, (read ka-ching). Plus, our mature years need mature plants if we are to see them reach an acceptable border height. The area is 55 long and 15 wide from inside the fence line. For many years excess clippings and leaf mulch from the front lawn was put under the pines, so the soil is fairly neutral according to the arborist because of the variety of undergrowth that remains. We have 3 wild dogwood trees, cherry, beech, maple, hews, shagbark hickory and assorted things Ive never heard of before. The dogwood will be saved and was tagged. No white pine saplings and very few pine cones are evident. Any green you see in the picture below, is yew, which the deer use as a palette cleanser. Diggin, I like holly very much and agree with you. Unfortunately, the deer like them even better. They ate 4 American hollies within four years. There is no such thing as a "free" deer sighting in my yard, lol.

It just gets better. As the last pine was being felled and the tree guy was aloft in his bucket, he stopped to examine the swamp maples next to the pines. Theyre dying from the top down. No buds, dark, broken bark and branches, etc. So, in a few weeks, the maples will come down. Suddenly, it seems like everything around here is aged and dying. Two swamp maples will come down, but a new red maple will go in the general area. Cannot remove two trees and not plant a new one! Ei yi yianother adventure.

I think when the yard is done in May, we should all meet here and raise a glass to the love and challenges of gardening! Oh, how could I forget? The tree man has a 6 kousa dogwood that a client stuck him with last fall. Hes giving it to me because I like dogwood. Its a start!

Kindly,

Jane

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Huge hole in landscape
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When they were shorter and full in back of rhodys
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Hello Jane...Wow to the photos! Well, it is winter too, so things are going to look bare. I love the last photo of your house before the removal. Lovely cape and lovely lot. We have a cape too but don't have the dormers which are really a plus. Your rhododendron is very effective in that position and looks very well cared for. I am sorry to hear that you had to take out the swamp maples, too. That must have been a shock. I am sure it will be difficult to look at all the holes in the yard the rest of the winter, but January is just about over all ready. :-) I agree with you, that mature years..equals..mature trees. Sounds right to definitely spend the money if possible to get the larger sizes.

On the plus side...having more sun in the house, although a change that you will have to get used to, may turn out to be more to your liking. 33 years of a shady hall to full sun is a lot of change! Certainly healthier for the home though to have sunlight coming in. You can also probably grow more variety of houseplants than you could before too.

Where are you planning on purchasing your plant material? Have you ever looked at Broken Arrow Nursery? I was thinking that if I had that much renovating I might try consulting with someone knowledgeable at one of my favorite nurseries for ideas about what and where to plant. That was nice of the tree man to give you the Kousa.

Thank you for sharing your adventure with us Jane! It will be fun to see what you finally decide on and to see all the changes. Look forward to seeing the finished job! You seem to be a very decisive person...to already have it planned to be planted by the end of May. You do get right to things! Love it!

Good job Jane... :-)
pm2

Thank you, PM2. Is that Broken Arrow in Hamden, CT?

This morning I called and emailed a fellow in Storrs, CT who moves trees up to 40' tall. Will investigate moving the rhododendrons from the corner to the side. They're the right height, width, and evergreen, plus we own them! Holy cow, the price of mature boxwood! Also, the tree mover has an inventory of mature trees. This will be an adventure for sure, but that war zone will be beautified!! Come h*** or high water, lol.

Jane

LOL...love your determination, Jane!

Yes, Broken Arrow is in Hamden CT. I am in MA, so I am not familiar with many of the CT nurseries, but this is one that I have bought plants from and found their material to be healthy and the prices to be reasonable. They also carry more natives then some other nurseries. I have also heard lots of good things about them from others. If you are looking for more to choose from, have you ever tried Garden Watchdog? They have a great data base of garden related companies that gardeners post reviews and experiences that they have. They have a great search function and you could probably do a search for CT or use one of their categories...like Trees, Shrubs.

pm2

Hi Jane, I've been following this thread and just wanted to add a little sympathy for your plight. So sorry about your trees! :( It is like losing old friends.

I had a couple of large Norway maples (Acer platanoides) removed from the yard in November. Another 2 Norways were topped and assorted branches trimmed from other trees. I dislike Norway Maples since they are a noxious non-native invasive and monopolize a site and they are also nearly impossible to grow underneath. Yet I still suffered a little trauma when they were removed. Suddenly there are large gaps where the trees used to be. It takes some getting used to.

I'm thrilled now - it was the right thing to do. Now I can plant a new native shrub border along the side (mixed evergreen and deciduous), and large new gardens in the back yard without the dense shade and thirsty allelopathic roots of the Norways. Not to mention the 10 million seedlings they create!

And in your case, it sounds like it was the right thing to do too. It never fails to amaze me the places people plant Eastern White Pine (Pinus strobus), like 5 feet away from a sidewalk. They are the largest tree that grows in Eastern North America and can reach 150-200 feet tall (although in cultivation, they are generally shorter)! If they are not sited properly, eventually they must be removed.

The only thing I might suggest, is that you could start creating lasagne beds where you wish to plant in the future where the trees used to be. A very thick mulch of leaves, compost, etc. would work too. Let those decompose for a bit, and plant (I wait 6 months-year). It will smother whatever else may try to grow, create extra humus for your beds, and make dealing with the leftover roots a little easier.

I am so thankful for the folks who have posted here! Not one bad idea in the lot! Also, Im thankful for age, patience, and thats it isnt May. Everyone is right need time to decide what will be planted on "Destruction Avenue". I got Bitners Conifer Encyclopedia from the library and found a conifer that bears my name! So much for ego, it grows to 75 and I will not do that to the tree or the next owner of this house. We sorely miss green outside the windows. Next Tuesday a landscaper will come to view the area and two other landscapers associated with big nurseries have been contacted. Naturally, theyre grounds are closed until early March.

Every morning the ideas change. It doesnt have to be a straight line. It can be slightly curved with intermediate growth conifers and two flowering trees inside to form a nook sort of an English garden style. I like the look of cypress Cupressus arizonica 'Blue Pyramid', but were on the zone 5-6 line and these trees are indigenous to the southwest even though people are planting them here. My blood belongs in New England, so I wouldnt be happy planted in Phoenix. Blue spruce, Fat Albert grows to 15 and deer dont like them, so Ive read. Boxwood to 10 is still in the picture. So many choices, but few native to Connecticut that deer dont eat. According to the UCONN data base, Juniper is considered native, but is palatable to deer and the birds like the berries if I didnt make gin out of them first!

I tried to count the rings on one of the pine stumps and lost track after 48. A while back I wrote a book titled The Rings of My Tree and as I counted the pines rings, I again thought, love of land and gardening helps to teach us who we are. I am a circular, globular person who colors outside the lines and somehow, this new border will grow into an evergreen, friendly place to visit. It cannot be a linear, columnar line that says, "Keep out". It has to be natural, soft, colorful and suit the site and the rest of the property. One of my backyard gardens has a hand-carved sign that reads, "The Philosophy Garden", and at one time it had 112 Stella doro lilies. Jung said, "Life is in the rhizome", so that gives you an idea of where I am! Oh, romantics who are gardeners may have a tougher time finding just the right plants, but I bet everyone who has posted here wouldnt miss the journey for anything!

Onward,

Jane

P.S. Like the Brooklyn Botanical site, Maya, thanks. Harvard has an arboretum site as well as the online tour at the Natl Arborteum. I could cancel cable, but not Internet!

Jane, I just checked out a book from the library called..

Gardening with Conifers by Adrian Bloom.

I have to add in a few evergreens in the spring so I am on a search mission. [g] The author is in England, which I didn't notice until I got the book home. I usually dislike getting books from English gardeners, because it is so frustrating to try to find the plants suggested here. So I will probably check out a few more over the winter, but I did write down a few names from the book that I really liked and that would fit my property. Haven't tried locating them yet. :-( His photos of his property with 25+ yr old conifers is great inspiration.

Glad to hear you are in good spirits. Sounds like thinking about the new possibilities are lifting the gloom.

:-)
pm2

I haven't posted since I remember all too well how I felt when I had to take down mature trees - pines and oaks - to make room for construction of my addition.

Have you considered, as a healing gesture, planting some dwarf white pines among other plantings? There are some real beauties.

plug in Pinus then strobus for list of cultivars at American Conifer Society site

Claire

Thank you, Claire, for the suggestion and link: Its a good one. Perhaps PM2 and I will become conifer junkies by the end of spring. It wasnt until after searching through the conifer encyclopedia that I considered a multi level assortment of dwarf and intermediates. Then along you came with the suggestion right after PM2 got her book from the library. Ah, interconnectedness. Youre both right there is so much to choose from. Im partial to the blue/silver/green needles and soft ones at that. The soft needle pine types, for me, have an advantage over the sharper needled spruce inasmuch I have to trim around them. Monrovia lists a 10high blue moss cypress, Chamaecyparis pisifera Boulevard and also Picea pungens glauca Fat Albert up to 15 tall, but with sharper needles. They list them as hearty up through zone 4. The beauty of doing multiple species is that if one type becomes unhappy and quits, I will not have lost an entire border of the same species.

The idea of combining varying shades of evergreens is appealing with the blue/grey/green being the larger specimens in the background. This mornings idea was to put winterberry in with conifers. Ideas change daily. Much to consider. Im going back to the library soon for a couple of Gordon Haywards books which I think I saw recommended by diggininthedirt on her Cape Cod blog. Your House, Your Garden: A Foolproof Approach to Garden Design . It looks like a good book (and its a good blog) and now that more than 55 of the border is involved (maples to be felled add on another 30 plus theres a 12 gate in the fence to consider. Sigh. Have you ever done just a touch-up paint job to a piece of baseboard where the vacuum whacked it and then ended up painting the whole room? Well, I have and thats the way this is beginning to feel.

Still open to all kind suggestions,

Jane

(thanks)

I was thinking about suggesting Osmanthus heterophyllus and wondered about deer-resistance, so I did a google search and found this link from Rutgers:

Landscape Plants Rated by Deer Resistance

I have a big old osmanthus and several little Goshiki's, but I'm in a bit warmer zone than you, so hardiness would be iffy. A great shrub though.

Claire

I can barely write this message. Insult to injury. Late yesterday afternoon the town tree warden came to my door. The town wants to take down the rhododendrons (pictured above) because the snow plow driver complained that they are in his way. The plow driver for more than 30 years has piled snow in that corner. Each time he plows he comes down the side street, puts a pile of snow in the middle of the road, backs his truck down the street and comes up at an angle and pushes the pile directly onto the corner. His problem? Seems that at another intersection in town, a snow plow driver was doing the same driving maneuvers and a cop gave the snow plow driver a ticket. Now the guy who plows our street is afraid of getting a ticket and thinks that if the rhododendrons were gone somehow he might not have to back up and risk getting a ticket. Thats the story as I understand it. Im still shaking my head in disbelief. The tree warden also said that the rhodys could be sighted as a "sightline obstruction" and the town has the right to take them down. They do overhang onto town property.

This is an old New England town with many, many trees. I cant back out of my driveway without having to stop and carefully look through 6 100+ years old oaks. Never in almost 33 years of living here have I asked the town to remove them because of "sightline obstruction".

The tree warden was nice and I was nice. He is giving me time and will help me locate someone to move the trees at our expense, of course. On the net I discovered that rhododendrons (except the yellow ones) can live for hundreds of years.

Three questions: Is it me or is the world off its rocker? Has anyone ever successfully moved a group of 30 years old rhododendrons? Any knowledge or feelings about the success of them living IF they are moved?

Getting desperate.

Jane

The world is off its rocker. The tree warden should be pruned.

You might try posting in the

Azalea and Rhododendron forum

There's a thread there now on

Transplanting rhododendron...

Good luck,

Claire

Oh, that's the worst tree warden story I've heard so far, and there are a lot of awful ones. Personally, I'd fight it.

Maybe try for a compromise, with cutting some of them back; but not removal, and not transplanting, at least not without the town providing the bobcat and operator, under your supervision.

You have my sympathy!

When it rains it pours. What timing too!?!
I agree with DtD, that perhaps there is someone else in the local town government that might give you some support in trying to find a more acceptable solution. I am very unfamiliar with anything 'town government' related, so I can't give you more experienced suggestions. I would think there is some hope there, that if the shrub is not on their property and is simply hanging over it, that a professional pruning might be another option. The town does have equipment that could be used and in the good weather, an hour or two of their help could do the trick, if it came to that. I would imagine if moving it turns out to be the best solution, you could negotiate a little by offering to agree without resistance if they provide the help to make the move.

I hope you can get more advice on the Rhododendron forum about the chances of success in moving it. One of my concerns would be how to allow for privacy in that location without obstructing the sight lines? It woud seem that corner needs something and if it is going to have to be something there, why not fight to keep the rhodie and trim it back. It might not be as full as you like but someone talented in pruning might be able to do something with it that would be acceptable. If not, maybe you could just move it back far enough away from the property line to make everybody happy, with their equipment, IF the experts feel the shrub has a good chance of surviving the move.
Very discouraging. So sorry, Jane. Hang in there, it will all work out in the end. :-)

pm2

It's not a rhododendron, but in the fall of 2004 I had to move an old osmanthus, at least 10 ft tall and probably 30 to 40 years old. It was in the way of construction.

It is multi-trunked and turned out to be shallow-rooted, like a rhododendron. The osmanthus survived the move very well and has flowered well since then.

Claire

Ugghh. How perfectly awful. I am also with DtD. I think the town should compromise and help bear the expense, too. Also, FWIW, I have moved large rhodies and they have been just fine. In fact, I had better luck with the ones we moved than with new ones I've been trying to establish. I keep killing the new ones, but the old ones did fine.... Yours will be fine, too.
Good luck!

So sorry Jane! You are certainly being hit hard. I can't add a lot to what the other posters have suggested, but I think you might have a chance with a Rhody IF it must be moved because they do have relatively shallow roots.

With the right equipment they can move amazingly large trees/shrubs with success! I am a property manager for a commercial office building and a couple years ago I watched a crew dig up pretty large Crimson maples from the commercial property next door. They had this ENORMOUS machine with four big blades that digs out the rootball in a large cone shape. Somebody paid thousands of dollars to both the owner and the tree company to remove these trees and transplant them to another property.

You people are wonderful!! Thanks so much for your comments. Youre just going to love this. As of this morning, with a tarp under me, I lay down on the front lawn and took pictures of the mile/mire stone marker in relationship to the rhodys trunks. I photographed them from every perspective in four directions and they are definitely on my land. I put the photos into an email, sent them to the tree warden (still a good guy trying to play fairly as I am trying to) and while on the phone with him, we both examined the photos. He said it certainly does look as though the plants are on my property and he further said that as the land owner I have every right to tell the town - forget it you cant touch them. Now heres the deal: I asked for clarification on site versus sight line obstruction, and he said the snow plow driver (the only complaint maker) said he cant see over/around the rhodys when he needs to take a right to go into the street in front of my house because he sits so far back in the truck when the plow is extended. So, the tree warden has asked the town surveyor to come out and make sure the plants are not on town property and then said that he would like to bring the snow plow truck here and have me ride in the truck to see what the snow plow driver sees and make sure that this chap isnt making something out of nothing. Those were the tree wardens words. Like every story when youre hearing it 3rd party, something falls through the cracks. Not sure how backing the truck up got involved, but that apparently is not the issue.

I will certainly climb into the snow plow truck and if I see that the rhodys height is a problem, I will conservatively prune them to aid the truck driver. By nature, I am not a trouble maker. I like peace and plenty in the garden of life, but I am Irish you fill in the blanks. When all is said and done, if the snow plow driver is paranoid, and I see it differently from the truck drivers seat, I will offer him therapy and charge the town a slightly discounted rate.

Busy morning the landscaper came. Long story made short, we like the way the border use to look. So, no red bud trees, no heather bun (Chamaecyparis thyoides). I will be going to the wholesale nursery(ies) with the landscaper and selecting 14-18 tall Intermediate growth pinus something-er-ruthers to again create the border we thought was majestic. We like the softness and fullness of pine, but this time it will be a tighter branched pine to reduce snow/ice breakage and mature height up to 20-25. All depends on what the nurseries have available. Where the 2 maples came out, a tall cornus florida (white dogwood) will go in near where the maples stood. Another dogwood will be planted next to the deck. I am the first customer in line, so this will be done by mid-May.

Truly, when all of this over, I think all of you should come here (central CT) and help us celebrate living with new life on the border!

To be cont.

Thanks for everything,
Jane

Could you come back and report what you end up with? I'd love to come up with a pine that stays that small, but about the only thing I've come up with is a Pinus strobus 'Nana'. White Flower Farm has a gorgeous one that I'd like to make about six copies of and steal all of them. However, reasonable sized ones aren't cheap because of the time getting them that size.

Full sized mugoes have also looked interesting, but I don't know anybody who is selling clones, just seedlings that might turn out to be anything. They also tend to splat open after a while.

I find conifers very difficult to plan for because they don't have a 'mature size'. They have a growth rate, and keep at it until they die. So evergreen screens in my neighborhood that were gorgeous ten years ago, are now hopelessly overgrown. And you start pruning them back and they get ugly. That's why I'm very close to punting and going with something deciduous that I understand the spacing of much better.

Sounds very hopeful, Jane! The key to dealing with the town, as you seem to know very well, is to be very, very, nice and cooperative and very, very understanding of the predicament of the poor dear snow plow driver.

Just find a solution that will save his pathetic face, along with the tree warden's, and leave your rhododendrons in place.

Claire (who used to work for a municipal agency)

Just know that you are not alone... we had a magnificent row of white pines (on our property but overhanging the street) butchered by a town employee, riding in the bucket of a front-end loader with a chainsaw. As they raised the bucket, crawling down my curb, he cut a line straight up to about 12 feet. All to accommodate the snowplow, which had not in all the previous years ever bothered to plow all the way to the curb anyway, but which all of a sudden was (so we were told) "endangered" by the white pine branches (I personally have never met a white pine branch that was any match for a multi-ton snowplow, but there you are...)

Needless to say, this resulted in many letters, many complaints, intervention by the first selectman and a reprimand for the "nonprofessional" "pruning" by the town. The reprimand must have REALLY ticked off the Public Works director, because next thing I knew (literally -- 8 am the VERY next DAY!), he sics the power company on my trees. Says his crew saw "plain evidence of arc-ing" (which if true, would be dangerous, I agree): of course, the power company themselves had "pruned" (i.e., topped!) the trees less than a year before. Pure retribution as far as I could tell!

One more tree story: In that same line of trees lining the street (and forming, when we bought our house, a virtually solid privacy wall!) was a magnificent elm. A real, American elm. We spent a fortune injecting it to protect it against Dutch elm disease, and it was flourishing (not necessarily because of that, of course, since we subsequently learned that there was significant question about the merit of such treatments. Nonetheless, we did them and they weren't cheap!) Then the power company's tree guy came to the door on one of their many visits to butcher (ooops, "prune") the white pines, to ask my permission, as they must. I said (reluctantly) okay, but prune as lightly as possible and leave the elm alone (since I didn't think any of its branches were impacting power lines and I didn't want any unnecessary pruning of this beautiful specimen). We walked out together, he agreed with me, and told (while I stood there) the crew to leave it alone. I looked at about two hours later to see them lifting the bucket up to the elm. I RACED down the drive, planted myself at the base of their truck, and shouted up to the guy in the bucket: "SORRY GUYS -- You're DONE here!" (Further discussion ensued, of course, but in the end, they left, grumbling about "people like you, lady...")

And as for line-of-sight, don't even ASK about my magnificent forsythia that the town wanted to remove. Even when a police officer came by and agreed it did not impede line of sight, they still sent someone out to "prune" it back. So a lovely old fountain of gold that never bothered anyone was turned in five minutes into a round little gumdrop. The public works guy -- when I confronted him in tears -- said "gee, lady, it looks MUCH better don't you think??" -- to which I (sobbing) said "take it OUT! if you're going to do that to it!!" (To which HE said "I can't take it out, I'm not authorized to do that..."

Your tax dollars at work...

Which is all just to say that I SO feel your pain! The irony is that two years after we moved from that house, a former neighbor told me that ALL those big white pines (which DID lose branches like mad every storm!!) had been taken out by the town! The reason: the roots were growing into the sewer lines in the street. Thank goodness I wasn't still living there -- they'd have had to lock me up for the duration!

Final bizarre note: After the front-end loader butchering incident, the town offered, in response to my squawks, to "underplant" the trees they had butchered the lower 10 feet of, to try to fill in and restore some of our privacy. So in their infinite wisdom, what do they suggest they are willing to plant UNDER these troublesome white pines that are apparently destroying their snowplows?

WHITE PINE SEEDLINGS!!!!!

Update on Town vs. Me

The morning after the town surveyor came out, I asked a surveyor-neighbor to measure the corner where the rhodys are planted. He said 2 of the group of 3 are definitely on my property, one was 10"-12" on town property. I emailed the tree warden and asked for the town surveyors finding not mentioning that I had had it surveyed; 2 weeks no reply. Last Tues. I went to the library to get Dirrs Encyclopedia and whilst I was gone, the tree warden called. Bottom line: never mind about moving them, the snowplow driver said he can see okay. Theres a little more to it, but why muddy this website? Externally, I kept my cool. After many expletives over the past month bouncing off the walls of my house, I witnessed said snowplow driver 4 times cruising around the corner in 2nd gear; so much for the stop sign and rhododendron sight line obstruction.

Trying to make a long story shorter, now it is MY choice to move them out of harms way because they are still growing wider and taller and instinct says this problem may surface again. After checking with the Am. Rhododendron Soc., CT chapter, Nancy Debrule at Natureworks, Broken Arrow Nursery, and an experienced CT gardener who has moved large rhododendrons, everybody said "Yes, its okay to move them". They will be professionally treated before and after the move to limit shock, etc. The move from the corner to the middle of my now empty space will save many dollars in new plants, give me the immediate 15 height and 21 length I want to fill and, (heres the tricky thinking) allow me more space on MY property to plant more cornus florida trees. Now, instead of a 50 long rectangular border, with the rhodys in the middle, I can make a slight curve onto the front lawn and plant an entire border of: cornus florida, Amelanchier Canadensis (Apple Serviceberry), the Rhododendron maximum- Rosebay Rhododendron, and assorted smaller evergreen azaleas with various blooming times. Along the fence to the backyard, alternate dogwood and serviceberry. That way, when my old fence falls over, a natural border will already be in place. This border structure will hopefully give me not only the privacy, but create a feeling of the house being embraced by a woodland-like border. Already have a landscaper who has done this before and his price for moving the rhody and clearing the new area is quite acceptable. I want it to be as natural and native as possible. Birds and people should be happy with this border, I think. Have I missed anything?...Lord knows I value all of the opinions written under this thread. You probably will never really know just how grateful I am to each of you. So, do you think this plant selection will work where the pines once stood and as an understory to 3 swamp maples (backyard next to fence)?

Best to each of you,

Jane

What great news - 2 problems added together to form a solution. Congratulations on your creative approach, it sounds wonderful.

Personally, I've had bad luck with both Cornus florida and Amelanchier Canadensis; dogwood blight on the one and fireblight and extensive insect damage on the other. Since you're in a different part of NE, though, you may have much better results. I agree that these are lovely when they're happy; I'm almost ready for another try with Amelanchier, it's such a valuable wildlife plant.

You have made some excellent lemonade from the lemons dumped on you!

I really like the idea of curving the border into the lawn to embrace the house. Early on you mentioned you were considering winterberries (Ilex verticillata) with conifers. Have you decided against the winterberries?

When do the experts recommend moving the rhododendrons - very soon while they're still dormant, ASAP after bloom this spring, or wait until fall?

Claire

Thanks, Dtd and Claire, I hope the plan works. We have 7 wild dogwoods on the other side of the property that have remained healthy for the 33 years weve been here, and two hybrids that have done well for the past 12 years, so dogwood was a natural choice. When we moved here the street was literally lined with wild dogwood and in places it almost arched across the street. Much has been lost to the power company and people not to disease from what I have seen. Id like to replenish it as much as I can.

The rhododendron experts have said to move them in April, definitely before May 1st. So, the ground will be prepared with 30 yards of new soil which will be incorporated with the old to maintain an even acidity (Ill test old site and new) and their roots will be soaked 24 hrs. prior to moving. The arborist and the landscaper will confer and treat the rhodys systemically to reduce shock and also give them a booster shot for healthy growth. (dont remember the names of the products)

Claire, the reason I chose the amelanchier over the Ilex verticillata is solely based on Broken Arrow Nurserys availability list based on height. Their winterberry is smaller right now (36") and I want height. Their serviceberry clumps are up to 12. As long as the birds eat and the space is filled with native shrubs, it works for me. I like both; actually, I like just about everything without thorns and that isnt orange!

PM2 was right on target when she noted the amount of sunlight coming into the house now could be of benefit. Weve always had the pine border and never thought about removing it before the major boughs broke. The amount of sun pouring in yesterday afternoon raised the temp on the south side by 8.7°. It was 76.7° at 2:30p.m. without the furnace running; hence, deciduous tree canopy with evergreen understory shrubs for privacy.

This whole story should be titled "When the Bough Breaks the Bank Will Fall". Im going to finalize the budget today, she said with a deep sigh.

Best to you,

Jane

Jane, what good news! Sounds like you have a plan. :-) Decidious for height with the evergreens lower for privacy sounds great on your south side. Glad you are enjoying your sunshine dividend..lol.

You are very lucky that cornus do well for you there. I have had the same problem as dtd, the one cornus rutgers that I planted just two years ago, had some sort of borer in the trunk and I am sure I am going to have to replace it soon. I do have a wonderful cornus racemosa shrub that is a native and has a horizontal branching structure and grew really fast and looks very healthy. I enjoyed it so much, I went looking for another, but the second one labeled 'racemosa' looks different than the first, so now I don't know what I have. [g] Whatever they are, they are cornus and a great addition to the garden.

My amelanchier has not been so lucky. It also developed some health problem and after a very exciting start, when the first two summers the tree was full of birds stripping the tree of berries, it has declined very quickly and consistently so that there was barely a berry on it last spring and I am preparing to take it out this year. I do have another shrub like amelanchier in the garden, and I am hoping for better results.

My local library hired an organic landscaper and they have a line of three amelanchier shrubs that are just gorgeous every time I go. The branching structure is very pretty.

Ah, yes, the budget! Hope it doesn't cut too deep, Jane. :-)

Take a lot of before and after photos!

pm2

OK. I'm close to being over the edge. This morning the town tree triming crews were heading toward my corner and I stood my ground. Seems that despite what the tree warden said, the crew boss still had the rhododendrons on his list as a sightline obstruction. Some angel of grace stopped me from going beserk, but I stopped them from touching them and then called the tree warden who was not in his office. Message left: "DO NOT TOUCH THEM! They're going to be moved." Then called Broken Arrow Nursery for appointment next week. Recommendation: Amelanchier x grandiflora and 2
Stewartia pseudocamellia. Can barely type. Don't these town idiots know better than tick off older women!?!?! Anybody have 500 acres for sale in the middle of nowhere?

Jane, you certainly are being tried! Hang in there - it's just lucky you were there when the tree trimming crew showed up. Try to get the tree warden's cell phone number if you can. Maybe put caution tape up by the rhody's with a sign saying "Under Construction"' or something similar.

Claire

Yes, you ARE lucky you were there! (I've been known to race down my driveway in a robe and slippers when the crews arrived early -- nothing stops them in their tracks faster than seeing a moderately hysterical woman approaching them in a bathrobe! ;)

We had the same issue with forsythia ... first the town said in the sight line, then the town police agreed it wasn't and reported to public works that it was fine ... then public works arrived to prune it to a tiny ball anyway. I just feel for folks who don't work from home (as I do) and come home at the end of the day to find such carnage. Must happen more than we think based on Jane's and my experiences...

(One side effect of years of dealing with this: whenever I hear a truck -- ANY kind of truck! -- or a chainsaw or other potentially destructive tool, I head outside immediately to determine the source (direction of sound, etc.) I think my husband considers it a mild case of clinical paranoia ... which I readily admit it is! But heck, I've learned from painful experience that if I don't look out for my property -- no one else will!

Good luck, Jane -- sounds as if you've got a great plan! (just want to second some qualms about the shadblow -- we have Amelanchier Grandiflora "Autumn Brilliance" and it can look REALLY ratty by mid-summer; starts out great, and the goldfinches LOVE it, but it is definitely NOT the most attractive tree as the season wears on. Definitely insect prone, so just be aware of that potential when you place it.