Pinetree: Did you try to explain all of this to me once before? I am not sure, but I remember we had a discussion of the summer shoot growth on one of my very fast growing (a lot of growth each year) white pines. I thought it was some growth that developed from a new bud, like an oak tree that puts out a second flush of growth after the initial spring growth. And I think you explained that this growth with the pine tree was different--that it was a summer elongation of the base of the bud that would be the basis for the growth of the following years shoot. Do I remember right? And is this what is properly called "lammas" growth? I think we also had some discussion of the "free growth" that I thought I saw on some NS trees after weevil attacks (maybe), and on some very young seedlings that seemed to put out new needles at the apex of their shoots without any evidence that I could see that it was an unfolding and extension of a shoot that came from any bud, whether that formed the previous summer/fall or had formed earlier in the summer. I can't remember exactly what you said about this kind of growth. I think you may have expressed some doubts about how I understood and/or described what I saw. Now what I was trying to describe in the post above, and incorrectly calling "lammas shoots", and what gnome posted a picture of, seems to me to be something different from the "free growth" I am describing in the previous paragraph. Now my question is, well, two things: first, is this growth that gnome pictures, and which I describe having seen on my own NS trees a few times, similar to what you described as happening with my special white pine tree (and a few others as well)--a premature extension of the basal elements of the terminal bud that would be the basis of the next year's growth, or is it something different? I think you are clearly saying it is something different. And if it is different, I think I understood from our previous discussion of white pine, that this kind of growth can't happen with white pine. And my second question is: if it is different, could it also be different from what I am calling "free growth." It seems different to me in that the free growth I have observed, at least in young NS seedlings, is continuous with the initial shoot growth--there does not seem to be any stage where the growth seems to have stopped and then resumed. It is more like how a tuliptree grows, unfolding one leaf at a time, than how an oak tree grows when it sends out a new flush of growth from a new bud after the elements in the initial bud have fully extended themselves. To summarize what I am trying to get at here--just how many kinds of, or sources of, summer growth are there, "technically" speaking? I am guessing there are three: Lammas shoots, free growth, and what gnome pictured and I described above--growth coming from the full extension of a new growth bud, like with an oak tree's second growth flush, followed by the formation of a completely new bud for the next year's growth. Well, when I started this reply I had no intention of making it so long. Forgive me, but I have a streak of curiosity about such things, but at the same time don't want to make a pest of myself trying to delve into technical issues. Generally I am a man who hates "delving," in any of the metaphorical senses this term may have. I am happy to delve under the surface of the soil to plant a tree. But as for "delving," in the more general metaphorical sense, I know am best off when I remain satisfied with very superficial understandings of things. "Delving," if that means penetrating the surface to gain a deeper understanding, has proven to be a frightening activity for me and has generally lead to confusion. So I do my best, usually, to avoid it when I can. --Spruce

I just did a search for P. pinea & ended up here..........any of you still around? I live in South Australia & have been around P.pinea all my life. We have one planted when I was a kid & it is now a big tree which dominates the skyline from a distance off. We get no nuts anymore as the cockatoos eat them all before they ripen. In about 2004-5 a friend & I gathered 10 gal of nuts from under a tree in the Adelaide plains & have been eating & germinating them ever since. I last germinated some from this hoard about 5 years ago. I am going to plant a couple of pounds of them this season to see if they'll still germinate.....will be amazing if they do as not many conifers will stay viable for that long. The nuts still taste fine & the embryo is still white & not dry & brittle....we'll see. P.pinea is an amazing species. I have grafted many species on it & all grew well. I have put P.mazimartinezii on potted plants & P.torreyana & P.sabiniana on 10' tall trees in the ground which healed smoothly & made strong sound unions. This is more amazing as P. pinea is supposed to be the most 'unrelated' species to any other pines. Here is a picture of about 2 gall of them:

Hi Bluegirl: Thank you for joining me here in Organic Roses Forum, much appreciated. Yesterday I almost ripped my arm carrying buckets of concrete clay, thanks to my mixing peat moss (pH 4) last year with my pH 7.7 clay. Fine particles like peat moss and alfalfa meal glue-up with clay into concrete blocks. Pine fines also glued up, once decomposed. Wood chips takes longer to glue up, due to larger size. The place where I layered coarse sand with clay ... still nice and fluffy after a decade. Coarse sand is inorganic, doesn't decompose, thus stay separated from clay. University of California Extension chart below listed 1 ton of gypsum as equivalent to 5.38 ton of sulfur. It also listed 1.09 ton of Ferric Sulfate as equivalent to 5.85 ton of sulfur. I already killed 2 rhododendrons with iron sulfate ... that stuff burns root fast. See link below: http://vric.ucdavis.edu/pdf/Soil/ChangingpHinSoil.pdf If your soil is acidic, hold off the gypsum. That stuff is great for alkaline soil and water .... but there are better sources of calcium for acidic soil, like bone meal and dolomitic, see link below "Types of calcium for best bloom formation". Gypsum provides 22% calcium, 17% sulfur, with salt index of 8.1, used to de-salt sodic soil, also to neutralize bicarbonates (calcium hydroxide) in alkaline tap water. Gypsum is great in breaking up clay at the bottom of the hole. Sulfur is slow-acting, but gypsum is fast-acting ... 1 ton of gypsum is equivalent to 5.38 ton of sulfur. Gypsum is also cheap at $7 for 40 lbs. bag at the feed store, versus $6 for 1 lb. bag of sulfur. I made the mistake of dumping gypsum on top ... made the surface soil acidic, great for fungal germination. My Evelyn rose broke out in rust and black spots. Plus the scent went away, thanks to too much calcium. That's why folks put lime in bagged soil to deodorize. Too much gypsum also made Evelyn's blooms almost white. Since I already over-dosed on gypsum, I'll use sulfate of potash to neutralize my alkaline tap water. I like its effect better: shiny glossy leaves, deeper color, bigger blooms ... thanks to the potassium. Bluegirl, I am more impressed with the instant-green-up of soluble sulfate of potash (aka potassium sulfate) at 23% sulfur and 20% potassium. Sulfate of potash exists naturally, just like gypsum ... both are mined products. Below is bouquet with Evelyn rose (big pink) and Crimson Glory (red). Evelyn was fertilized with high potassium cocoa mulch NPK 3-1-4, high potassium horse manure, plus soluble gypsum & sulfate of potash. Deep purple rose is in the middle, made small by my failed experiment of dumping high phosphorus (bone meal) on top and burnt the plant .. I haven't learned my lesson after burning geraniums that hot summer with bone meal. Here is a link that might be useful: Types of calcium for best bloom formation This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Jan 16, 14 at 13:06

9 days later, those buds have lengthened to about 3.5" for the top one, and around 2" for those below, with small leaves unfolding quite nicely However, the presumptive "leader", The bud on the upper left, is still growing straight out at a 40 degree angle and showing no signs of curving upward yet. Will it continue growing this way for a while or will it start to turn up before the growth hardens off? Most other trees I have done a heading back cut on, the new leader starts curving upward almost immediately.