Sorry for Typos, I meant JMs. JP is a friend.

Yah probably a bad idea .. #1 they are all fairly slow growing ( even the "faster ones are slow compared to other stuff you could plant) which leads nicely into #2 they are expensive unless you want twigs which leads into #3 small twigs that will take 10 years to reach that height if then #4 the taller varieties tend to be less bushy creating less of a screen #5 ideally for screening you want plants that don't reqire alot of trimming and and depending on variety most would to keep to right heigh... This mantra of "darkness" could go on and on!!!! ;>)
I think there are a bizzion other bushes or tree/bushes that would be better... Nanking cherry bushes grow FAST are are really nice and do ok in shade also ginnala maples for a bit larger bush/ tree...I personally love bridal wreath spirea an "old" variety ( van houten) nice all year round that grow 5+ feet they are my favorite bush but are poo pood by snobs wanting "fancy" spireas and I have probably a dozen differnt spireas and like them best Also mock orange bushes are cheap and really nice and will take shade are available in single or double flower...The list goes on and on. You have SO many choices that choosing JM's seems a bit of a stretch...yes it can be done but it begs the question WHY??? David

I might add these suggested hedge plants are ones that do well in my area and I haven't checked their adaptability for yours but there hardiness in hot summers and cold winters dought and flooding conditions would seem to imply they would work for you ..I did leave off one especially fast growing thick beautiful plant I have had good luck with in screaning areas ...The American high bush cranberry... it's a really versitle plant but can get really big if left alone untrimmed ... also there are numerous viburnums that will work well for you ...David

Thank you for enumerating the errors of my ways. I was trying to find a shrub with really good foliage. I rely on perennials and lesser shrubs for flowers but needed something that was going to make one sit up and notice the foliage the way the verigated red twigged dogwoods have in the past. (Plus foliage lasts longer than flowers, so I wanted the good stuff.) I was thinking of something like than JM with the rounded leaves, something moon I beleive it is called.

But I also agree with all your objections.

I like some of the viburnum foliage, but haven't really found one with much winter interest as the berries are pretty much gone by now, leaving 4 months bear. If the bed weren't so near my sewer system, I'd try some of the willow shrubs.

Thanks again for helping me think this through.

Philip

If you are looking for year round stuff and want to stay away from boring ever green firs etc and none of my other ideas "hit" ya might I suggest grasses. There are several varieties that are not invasive and can be kept in a specific area easily ...mine are mostly 3- 4 years old and grow about 6 ft and are really neat in summer in their "live" state ... have beautiful seed heads and flowing brown stems and "leaves" in winter...In the spring I just cut them down and about one month later they are 4-6 ft tall again. I have never had any problem with any of my varieties speading they all seem to clump.Sorry i don't remember the varieties but I think one is zebra grass not sure.Pompas grass is nice but doesn't overwinter here . WHATEVER you do stay away from bamboo unless you like to live dangerously. Once established you will NEVER ( trust me on this ) be able to control it( clumping varieties are Ok but are slow growers small and nothing to write home to "mom" about) I HATE BAMBOO it is Gods gift to hell!!!!Anyone wanting to know about my anti bamboo prejudices please email me directly as the GW doesn't allow for the comlpete expression of my hatred for it ...David

There is a cutleaf elder, Sambucus racemosa 'Sutherland Golden', that might work for that area that has cool foliage. I have not grown it so I don't know how much it suckers or how the yellow foliage holds up, etc. If you are looking for berries and fall color you can try black chockeberry, but those might need to be underplanted with stuff to make them look better. Winterberries also might work for that site's conditions and have good berries if you have a polinator.

While there may be error to your ways, that has never stopped anyone in gardening before. Sure you can for a dense screen with many other plants, but how many screens or hedge/tree borders have you seen constructed with Japanese maples.

I think if you shift your goal just a bit from screen to border you have many options. The end product may not be as dense as some shrubs or evergreens, but the impact will be stunning.

Think of the various heights that maples grow to; some plants are mounding some are busy some are small trees. They can be upright and dense or spreading and dense and you have numerous leaf textures and colors to work with.

If you combine maples that compliment and contrast with eachother in size, shape and color, you might be surprised. Some will be a bit tall, some a bit shorted, but the end product will be many times more impressive than a uniform hedge-row. Even better if you have say 10 or so feet of depth to work with you can stagger the plantings to give texture and depth. Now we are talking!!

If this meets your needs, I will continue with some suggestions. Otherwise Vibrunum opulus makes a nice screen with seasonal interest--clusters or balls of white flowers and nice red fall color. We moved to a place that has some of these and at first I thought they might be a maple of sorts.

MJH

MJH,

That is a truely inspired idea. Buying more plants remaking a whole bed. Buying more plants. What more could a garden guy want?

I have three coral barks and 2 weeping threadleaf that I could donate to this effort.

The space is about 25 by 10. It is close to to the neighbors house so I do not want anything that gets too tall or too wide. One end of the bed is anchored by a willow oak. The other by some skip cherry laurel and a rhodo, but some pine branches overhang.

The only practical requirement is to create some informal light screening. Other than that imagination reigns.

I'd have to learn a bit more about the JM family of plants. Any thoughts as to which JMs I should consider? Also sources for info or good books. I have the 2005 Forest Farm catalog which sadly lacks photos. But I really do not know the range of plants that well.

Philip

Er... maple forum?

Sure JMs are expensive and/or slow growing. But, can't these attributes to be considered pros rather than cons? I just ripped out a lilac to make a potential shirashwanum site so that another maple could get stuffed into my paltry little yard. And, there's a peach tree in the back corner that better perform next year or he's out of here, too!

I would die for more spots with morning sun and afternoon shade, like you have. Maples are second to none.

YES maple forum and NO ONE said a hedge of JM's is not do-able ...you could use one as a chritmas tree too ...thats not the point. Is it practical, cost effecient and how long do you want to wait to have adequate screening... If money and time and space are NOT a consideration then go for it.*( I personally have a fairly large area 10x20feet screened off with a GROUPING of 5-6 spaced bloodgoods all are now about 10- 12 feet tall but it took TEN YEARS!!! and totally shades the area) I also don't agree with MJH... what she has proposed to me is a group planting like I have ( but with differnt varieties) NOT a hedge. Group garden plantings are used by many and are really beautiful but this is not IMHO a hedge or screen and will take up much more space like mine...maybe that's not a problem either.If folks think it's correct to give info out in a rah rah fashion cause we are a maple forum I guess thats ok but lets be honest here ...if Phillip loves JM's, has the space time and money to do it ...go for it ...MY point is that if he wants primarily a screen there are a multitude of better alternatives that are cheaper , faster, and take up less space...David

David-
No offense intended toward your ideas, but if Philip was truly in love with the idea of using the maple, then I certainly wanted to give my opinon as to the usefulness of the species in the proposed application.
You might view page 49 "Acer palmatum line a pathway" in the vertrees 3rd edition as well as the subsequent pages, incluing pg. 60 where low growing dissectums are used. If we alter the graft height on the dissectum border and use staked or tall standard grafts the 4-6 feet is quickly attainable.

So, my self taught expertise is with maples and is limited when it comes to other plants. I'll stick with what I know.

There is now doubt the expense will be significant if large plants are purchased and if Philip uses small ones the wait could be 10-15 years. Now, I suppose we have to evaluate the time and expense Philip will go to.

I think with the 3 Sango kaku and the dissectums would be a great start with little expense. Then I might consider adding a dwarf or two in the foreground. In lieu of a dissectum many of the matsumarae and deeply divided maples have long pendulous branches (Kinran, Oregon Sunset, Azuma murasaki). Those can fill in quite tall in time.

A nice dense and somewhat strict upright is the Tromley's Red Sentinel for a red effect that will not sprall. A good sized Shaina or Pixie will grow to 6-8 feet with little pruning. Either the dissectums Philip has or a tall staked Waterfall/Virids and Crimson Queen would be easy to find and work well.

We can use Kiyohime or Mikawa yatsubusa in the foreground or someting like that. Maybe even anchor the bed with an upright variegate like Butterfly or Mausugae. I would love to see a big Ruby Ridge in there or a reticualted form tucked away-Shigitasu sawa, First or Sister Ghost, Aka shigitasu sawa. Find plants that already of upright tendencies.

Many other species of maples will work just fine too.

Phillip--use the attached link to find photos of maples. Also consider a couple maples and some other shurbs or conifers. We all have limited garden space for the most part, so I hope you don't mind that I have converted you hedge to a mixed border/screen. Unless you really don't like the neighbors, I would opt for the combination planting.

You decide.
Michael

Here is a link that might be useful: Esveld Gallery

Guys,

I think both are right. Viewed strictly as a hedge, Japanese maples are not the most effective tool in the plantsman quiver. (Mix that metaphor!) But if we redefine the project then they become an attractive option.

When prodded to think about it, I realized that I would prefer to redo the whole bed, rather than simply replace a declining hedge with a new one. So both are right.

I am old enough and now that the girls have finished college (financially anyway), that I would probably substitute money for time and buy some big specimens, especially if I could reuse existing material.

Michael I will study the list you provided. I have not a clue as to what all the JMs you mention looked like. My dissectums are very short (1 meter or so after 10-15 years) so I doubt I'll need more dwarfs.

I looked up some shirashwanum that the earlier poster had mentioned. I really liked the Golden full moon at ForestFarms.com, where I got my Sango Kaku. Has anyone any experience with that one? The Fullmoon maple had the right proportions (Maybe a tad big) and I thought a golden version would probably be smaller.

The neighbors, by the way, are dear friends---I even have a special path through the border just for them. Part of the reason I wanted good foliage was to ensure that they got a good show when they ate on their screened porch right next to the bed. The screen is to give them privacy when they eat, so they do not feel on stage. They had really liked the verigated red twigged dogwood before it began its decline.

Viewed strictly as a hedge, Japanese maples are not the most effective tool in the plantsman quiver. (Mix that metaphor!) But if we redefine the project then they become an attractive option.

When prodded to think about it, I realized that I would prefer to redo the whole bed, rather than simply replace a declining hedge with a new one.

NOW YOUR TALKIN' TURKEY!!!! ...GO FOR IT!!! AND THE DESIGNING SHOULD BE A BLAST BTW ...DAVID

Once you get going on this project, you might look locally as your money will be better spent on plants than shipping.

The only nursery I am very familiar with is Eastwood Nurseries in Wasington, VA. They do mailorder, but have many larger specimens on sight. I suspect if you call them you might be able to find recommendations for other specialty growers in your area.

For larger staked and tall grafted dissectums keep and eye out at the big box garden centers for Acer plamatum Red Dragon, Tamukeyama, Crimson Queen, Ever Red, Inabe shidare, Virids, Waterfall--all dissectums. They usually are about 3ft tall when they come in, but can be taller. Money well spent.

Then I would hit the road this spring and see some plants about 2-4 weeks after they begin to leaf out. Call ahead to the nursery to make sure the plants are in-leaf. From now until then, you can do some research and ask about plants here in the forum to narrow things down. I would try to find out what you have access to there on the east coast if you are going to have plants shipped. Forest Farms has everything you would need, but there are a good number of Nurseries in Virgina and south to southwest of there. Much less shipping.

Acer japonicum 'Aureum' (Golden full moon maple) is a nice plant. For a selection just a bit more hardy and vigorous, look at Acer japonicum 'Autum Moon'--a seedling section from 'Auruem'.

MJH

Here is a link that might be useful: Eastwood Nurseries

Philip,

You'll soon find that common names for JMs can lead to an awful lot of confusion. And, in some cases, even the "experts" can disagree about the growth and size attributes of individual cultivars.

For example, Michael evidently believes that your reference to "Golden full moon" translates to 'Aureum', a cultivar often categorized as Acer shirasawanum (e.g. Gregory in Vertrees 3rd ed. and van Gelderen in Maples for Gardens). I'm guessing that he is correct. You also infer that the "Fullmoon maple" was larger than the golden version? I'm not sure what tree "Fullmoon maple" would translate to, so I have no idea if your suspicions are likely true, or not.

My point is that you're going to have to be careful when researching and shopping for your trees to make certain of what it is that you are buying and how it will ultimately perform for you. I've been led to believe that Acer shirasawanum 'Aureum' can be a very difficult tree, while Acer shirasawanum 'Autumn Moon' is an easier choice, as Michael suggests. I guess I'm going to find out because I just purchased an 'Aureum' last month. As I always say, why take the easy road when there is a tough one in front of me? :)

To see more of 'Aureum', you can also refer to the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: UBC Gallery

There is a picture of a maple hedge, and a small how to on Guy Maillot's site. The text is in French, but the picture 'international'. Here is the link:
http://www.maillot-erable.com/tailles.php

Aother option with similar effect would be the use of some Fagus cultivars. I have thought that the use of Fagus Sylvatica Ansorgii for a small hedge. It to would be spectacular, though it would take a long time.

For maples what about Shishigashira, it is dense and somewhat upright and would need little pruning. Koto No ito would be much more open but again somewhat upright and would not need much shaping. Several of those with laceleafs or dwarfs mixed in at the base would be very attractive.
David

I think the photo of a palmatum hedge posted by schcsch illustrates my point. Its nice but unspectacular and in fact rather ordinary IMHO . It does NOT do justice to the beauty and uniqueness of the JM and in fact I think trivializes it !! It looks identical to the ginalla maples I planted along a wire fence to act as a screen...except my ginalla's cost 3-5$$ each and grew from 24" to 5-6 feet in two to three years with NO winter dieback. I think the idea of a group planting using the whole area with a few larger trees towards the back and smaller dissectums up front is a KEEPER. I would suggest contacting Della at JD's Nursery for larger trees she's tops and her prices are exteemly reasonable for the size of tree you get and offers 4+ year old varieties..at http://nurserygirl1.tripod.com/index.html... she's not far from you so you could pick up ( day trip) or have shipped pretty cheap. Eastwoods is a good place too but good luck EVER getting your emails answered ( one of my pet peaves BTW!!! David

Philip

Sorry for replying so late on this, I forgot my sign in name. I think that your idea is a good idea and not as difficult to accomplish as some have stated. I do agree with Michael in that this would be more of border uses as a screen rather than just a screen and by using maples you will not have a screen in the winter.

I realized after reading your post that one of the areas of my garden acts as a Japanese Maple screen most of the year. This garden is approximately 120 feet long and varies in dept from 4 to 12 feet and is in almost full sun. This was not intended to be a screen and has evolved and grown over 10 years. For me this was just an area to increase my maple collection. It started out as a mixed border of Japanese maple, dwarf conifers and perennials. The dwarf conifers have been relocated and now the only perennials are hostas. The remaining plants are 22 maples. This bed started with 5 or 6 larger plants in the six-foot range and other small 1 to 2 gallon plants filling in. There were over 30 maples originally used in the bed and I continue move plants as the garden matures. The garden had an arborvite hedge on my neighborÂs property about 4 to 6 feet tall and 90 feet long along the west border. This past year the neighbors approached me to ask if I would mind if the removed the arborvite hedge so that they could enjoy the beauty of the maples. The view of the maples from their house is even better than from my side. I will post a picture of about 1/3 of the maples in the gallery so you can better see the effect. This photo is from 1999 and the garden has grown and changes over time. In the last year I have removed many of the lower branches to create a more open design. The hostas die back completely in winter and this makes for easy cleanup and a low maintenance design. This mulched bed now produces thousands of seedlings each year and is one of my favorite spots to observe in the spring. I have updated photos of the garden that are way too large to post to the garden web gallery but I would be glad to email if you would like to see.

I can provide the plant list if you would like.

Ed

I didn't read through all of this thread, but isn't the obvious answer here Acer campestre, the hedge maple?

Having said (asked) that, I have never actually seen a hedge maple hedge. I believe it is most commonly used for this purpose in England. Has anyone seen a good hedge maple hedge here in North America? Does it work here?

Scott

Thanks for all the thoughts. This project is much more exciting than I initially thought it would be. I'll definitely be making some road trips. Since they don't answer email, I guess I'll make some phone calls. Something for this empty nester to do on weekends.

I really like the idea of some interesting uprights in back with dwarfs in front. And the lack of winter screening isn't a problem. They do not use their screen porch in the winter much and I don't go out into the yard much anyway.

I guess I'll have to see if my library has Vertrees to get a color scheme going. I noticed that the Washington, VA folks have a $30 JM photo album. I wonder if that would be a good investment.

Thanks for the insights & keep them coming. And I rather liked the french photo of the hedge.

Philip-

I love the enthusiasm. While it seems quite logical when we start to talk it out--the mixed plantings, so few of us, myself included, know enought about the maturing growth habits of the many varities of maples to pull things together. It is an experiement in learning as we look at online photo galleries and books to learn how the plant might grow for us.

I would not spend the money on that CD right now, but use the links from my page, M & M Maples. I have been working on the site and the gallery, but you will find the links will contain much more mature specimens than I grow.

Pay special attention to Esveld and Ganshukutei. The French site of Maillot Bonsai is o.k. but does not show many "tree" photos, but pictures of leaves. You will also find that many of the trees on the Maillot and Ganshukutei sites are not available here.

You can use the tree finder at MountainMaples.com as well as their descriptions and make sure to search the UBC forums and this site for the trees you are interested in and for details.

When going to the library, look for the Vertrees "Japanese Maples," 2nd edition. This edtion has the trees grouped by type or growth habit. It will allow you to see similar varieties grouped together. The 3rd edtion is alphabetical and it is hard to see the similarities.

I may poke around some tonight and tomorrow and see if I can add some links to my website, so check in a day or so. There is a great photography site out there that has some outstanding photos of maples that I need to relink. The link I used to have died on me.

Anyway, enough for now. If you go to the links page, lick on Iseli Nursery--the display garden is quite spectacular.
Another spectacular garden can be seen here:
http://www.bloomriver.com/reFrame.asp?page=/root/viewPlants.asp?ID=14

I visited in 2004 and quite enjoyed it.

MJH

Here is a link that might be useful: M & M Maples

Philip:

Here is a simple solution if you have the room. Viburnum x pragense, Viburnum rhytidophylloides, and Viburnum x rhytidophyllum would all be mostly evergreen in your climate(there might be others too that I cant grow and you could--you should check). Anyway, make your hedge out of them ,and use the evergreen backdrop to display a number of interesting maples.

I was going to point out the photo of a Japanese maple hedge in the Vertrees book, but someone else beat me to it. Personally, I think it could look nice, assuming you don't need or want an evergreen hedge as a screen. As many of us have yards of limited size, a hedge could be a way to find another spot to plant some maples! There are plenty of other deciduos shrubs that are sometimes used as hedges, such as forsythias, burning bush, crepe myrtles, etc.

On a related note, one of the most effective plantings of Japanese maples I have seen is in Washington DC. In front of a building off Pennsylvania Ave (sorry, can't remember which one), there is a group of red dissectum Japanese maples planted together in a cluster. It's perhaps 3-5 individual trees. Don't know the exact variety, but they all appear to be the same. Anyway, it looks like a miniature grove of trees -- not unlike some bonsais -- and is very effective. I wouldn't mind trying it myself, except my yard is not large enough.

The one JM I can think of that I have actually seen in a hedge formation is Kotohime. Relatively strong growing and dense when young, but doesn't continue to the sky.

Or possibly consider a "hedge maple" -- Acer campestre. The cultivar 'Compactum', sometimes also known as 'Nanum' is slow growing to 6 feet tall and 8 feet wide, hardy to zone 5.

"It's perhaps 3-5 individual trees. Don't know the exact variety, but they all appear to be the same. Anyway, it looks like a miniature grove of trees -- not unlike some bonsais -- and is very effective. I wouldn't mind trying it myself, except my yard is not large enough."

That is how I have done it...it looks great in all but winter but nothing in life is perfect ...mine are all bloodgoods (alledgely)... If I can ever figure out this site for posting photos (it sucks IMHO) I will post last fall's colors of this "grove"It should be noted when you do this eventually the lower branches will die off from shade...reiterating the need for smaller weeping dissectums or dwarfs or other small specimens up front..I unfortunatly don't have much up front space w/out entering my yard area... so I will have to live with nice trunks flowing upwards with their beautifully leafed branches

"it sucks IMHO"...

No kidding. You would think that GW could take some of the money they make from annoying pop-up ads and upgrade their forum software to something designed in this century.

Now, where did I leave that DOS manual...

I am torn whether to be the disciplined landscaper and put in several of the same JM for a unified look. Or whether to be the self indulgent "stamp collector" and get one of each.

Actually there is some benefit to being self indulgent and that is since I am bound to err---being a novice at JMs---if I buy several types of JMs only part of the screen will be "wrong," however so defined.

I think a compromise of having tiers of 2 (maybe 3) different types might work in satisfying both proclivites (Unified Look and stamp collecting). (And then of course the additional ones in front for low coverage.)

The more I thought about it, I am unlikely to move my dwarf dissectums. They have been in the same location maybe 10 years or possibly more. Moving them just seems like inviting heartache.

I also thought that for screening purposes mid-sized upright varieties that get 8-12 feet after 15 years might accomplish the task of providing screening in a timely manner---given that these are JMs the word "timely" is subject to loose interpretation---yet not overwelm the site when they get mature. I also want to avoid trees: I want bushy shrubs for screening. While I am attracted to pendulous, they really don't seem to screen. Do those criteria seem like good selection criteria as I go through Vertrees and whatever other material I can gather?

I think you are on the right track... Most folks posted, me included, think a mixture is best ...but thats not the same as suggesting a hogde podge !!! If it were me i would have a couple of larger upright in back of the same kind ( as many as needed to make a screen) but if more than two or three are needed I'd put two of a kind in the middle and two similar shape but differnt types on the ends ...Then I would put several smaller dissectums ( preferred) or dwarfs up front again in pairs to give it some symetry. You can then pick what spring summer and fall leaf colors you like and design it from there. But that's just me if you like a more cluttered noah's arch look who am I to critisize but i do think having all the same trees in a row is not the best choice...But it's your planting... One thing for sure DON'T move your older plants unless they are in the wrong place and you hate em there!!! I tried that this spring with a smallish blood good type and even though mine weren't dwarfs don't belive everything you here about SMALL jm root systems ...I gave up and stopped before dropping dead from exhaustion or getting out my chain saw. I ended up trimming the trees around it and didn't have to go to the emergency ward;>)... Even if yours are movable the strress on an old adjusted tree probably wouldn't be good... good luck ...MY TWO CENTS PLUS WORTH....David