http://s189.photobucket.com/albums/z49/jk4000z/?uploadtab=video

These are from last month.

Strange things happen indeed. The only possible explanation I would offer you is this.....
Who of us is absolutely sure we have a Nikko? Soooo many plants are labeled (and look like) Nikko in error that even Dirr doesn't know which is the real Nikko. There are many out in the midwest (where ES was discovered...hmmmm) that claim their Nikkos bloom reliably in zone 5 and those in zone 7 who claim theirs are not reliable. Do they all have the same plant? I doubt it. Oakhill, Decatur Blue.....I bet many who think they have Nikkos, actually have one of these remontants instead. Would explain why some think Nikko is remontant and others don't. It seems as though when all attempts to identify a hydrangea fail, they just label it a Nikko. If it walks like a duck..well...you know.....yg

Maybe that is the reason yellowgirl? I did buy them at my local supermarket and they had a pretty generic paper sticker on rhe pot which read, "Hydrangea Nikko". Last year they had nice blue flowers so I have assumed they were Nikkos. I guess I'll see how they perform over the years.

There is a recent thread "Crazy Nikkos" where someone in zone 4/5 just reported flower buds on new wood their Nikko. So...plants do the darnd'est things.

That's quite possible YG. However my original Nikko purchased in 1996 bloomed reliably every year in coastal Maine. That one was purchased from a reputable local nursery.

Now this fella that I got from Walmart last year could be a fake Nikko. =)

I think there are a lot of plants out there called "Nikko" that are perhaps really Endless Summers or one of the other ones like Oakhill. I bought some "Nikkos" a few years ago and I just bet you anything they're really Endless Summers.

That's one possibility. Nikkos are not all the same.

But I suspect that another possibility is that you're not really seeing "remontant" blooms or even "blooms on new wood". Basically because it's too early for either one of these to apply. Any blooms you're seeing right now are, I'm betting, formed from an "old bud", ie. "old wood", and are no different than the other blooms you're seeing.

Are you thinking that this is "new wood" because you're seeing the growth come from the crown? I think that happens a lot and it's really from an old bud.....

Hay

TOTALLY AGREE...I read many posters claiming to be getting blooms on "new wood" but I think very few really understand what "new wood" is. If the bud was formed last fall, no matter where on the plant it was formed, ie; way down in the crown, or when it happens to open, it's still "old wood". I think many confuse 'new wood' with 'new stems'......yg

Ok Hay and Yellowgirl, let me understand this better since this is my first year on Hydrangeas.

Very early this spring after the winters cold I took a good look at all my plants. I noted that this Nikko had died back to the ground and all I saw were some gray, brittle, weathered twigs devoid of anything resembling a bud or a sprout. These twigs were smooth and weathered, just like the ones on my ES which were unprotected. This I think is the old wood.

All of the stems and green growth came from the ground up and kept growing and is now almost 2 ft high and in diameter. It is from this "new growth" that I see some flower buds which is near the top of the plant. At first they are 1/2 inch in diameter and keep growing larger. About the same as the young ES I have which have more profuse flower buds.

Please correct me here. My older Nikkos have always died back to the ground and I have never had any kind of growth on the previous years canes until I protected them this past winter. This should hold true for my newer Nikko? Eh? Cheers, Jack

Hi, Jack.

This is what I think is going on.

If you watch Hydrangeas in the fall, the "Nikko" type, you'll notice that some of the buds, especially those at the very tip of the cane, but also especially those in the leaf aaxils near the tips will begin to swell up. During the Summer, those leaf axil buds may be barely visible, but, in the Fall, they will swell up to the size of a pea or small bean. This is the source of next year's bloom. In the Spring, God willing, those buds will have survived the winter and you'll get a stem with maybe 6 or 7 sets of leaves and a flower at the tip.

I think this is the typical flowering cycle. It would be really easy for someone who is not familiar with the cycle to see this new growth with a stem with several sets of new leaves and a flower at the tip to think this is really from new wood. Afterall, there is maybe a foot or more of new stem with leaves all up and down it, and a flower on the tip end. Isn't that "new wood"? No. That's what we mean by the term "old wood".

What makes it an "old wood" bloom is that the BUD that generated this new growth and a flower at the end was set last Fall.

What I'm saying is that this same process can occur at the crown level of your plant. If you had carefully observed your plant last Fall, I'm betting that there was a bud in the crown that went through the same process as the buds at the tip of the canes last Fall. This crown bud got a signal from the plant to do whatever it does to get ready to become a stem and a flower next year, just like the ones at the tips of the canes. You would have seen it as a swelling bud last Fall.

(Keep in mind that I've had one Botany course in my life)

Take some newly formed stem. Cut off the tip to induce REAL new growth from a real new bud in the axils. That's REAL "new wood". That's possible with Endless Summer. I'll call that "new wood". But that's not what you're seeing. Why? It's too early.

Hay

Exactly...since Hay is more articulate and knowledgable in these matters, I was hoping he would answer first!!

I would add as a reference, that it takes approx 8 to 12 weeks for a 'newly' set bud to become a bloom. Why is that important? Well timing is everything as this discussion goes.

Lets say for example that I have an ES (truely remontant) whose old wood/buds survive the winter in tact. April comes in Florida and those buds begin to bloom. By the end of June those blooms are looking pretty tired so I deadhead them down to the next opposite set of leaf buds. Those leaf buds will form two new stems which supposedly will bloom this season.(NOW we're talking 'new wood' here.)If it takes 8-12 weeks for newly set buds to become blooms, then theoretically, I should see another round of blooms sometime around September. (not a guarantee however, but we'll cross that bridge later)
Now let's say I live in a northern zone. None of my old stems or buds survive winter. My ES has to start making new stems from scratch when it breaks dormancy around May (??) New stems have to grow up from the ground and set new buds. Now, since we already know that it takes 8-12 weeks for those buds to hatch, is it possible to have blooms on 'new wood' before July? and will your season be long enough to see a second set of blooms? No way.

Now to illustrate the difference between a 'remontant' hydrangea like ES and a 'reblooming' or sometimes referred to as 'free flowering' hydrangea like Nikko, Mde Emile, Gen Vicomtesse, etc., let's exchange the ES in the previous example, for a Nikko.

In April/May in Florida, I will have blooms on my Nikkos just as on ES. In late June I deadhead. I am MORE likely to get another flush of blooms (and sooner) from the Nikkos than the ES. Why? Because the new flush of blooms from the Nikkos will come from buds further down the stem or on the crown of 'old wood' and will not need another 8 to 12 weeks to develope.

In the north, my Nikkos die back to the ground and there are no surviving buds on the crown either. I get zero flowers period. Why? Because my Nikko is NOT 'remontant' and although it will grow new stems and leaves, it will not set new buds until fall and so it will NOT have time to bloom before next season.

Now I am starting to confuse myself, so I digress. Keep in mind that I have had "0" years of Botany training so I am trying to pass on in laymen terms things that I observe but don't necessarily totally understand.

Hope I haven't confused the heck out of you too......yg

I don't claim to have a complete understanding of the flowering and I think I'm not alone.

In line with what YG is saying, ( I think?) I think the promis e of Dooley, for instance, was that even though the Spring frost killed off the topmost flowering part of the cane, the buds from lower on the cane would then be induced to bloom or something like that.

And I think I've seen Dirr say that the Georgia growers will go out in some ridiculous month like February and cut off the tops of the hydrangeas so that they'd be getting more compact plants for the market that would still flower. I'm saying, huh?

And I think Dirr has said, if I remember correctly, that some homeowners would just throw leaves around the base of the plant and the top part would die over winter and still there'd be flowers.

Dirr has had some plants named Nikko DNA tested and found they're not all the same. I think there may be just a little difference in some of the ones that behave like Endless Summer.

And I've seen Madame Emile get cut back to the crown in the fall and put away in a greenhouse and still flower.

I've cut some to the ground (Nikko, All Summer, Dooley, I don't remember)in the fall and overwintered them and some would flower profusely and some not at all.

The point is that if it were simple and understood, we wouldn't all be gathered round talking about it all the time. It's not so simple as "new wood", "old wood". That much seems clear.

Hay

Thank you Hay and Yellowgirl I think I am getting a bit more clear on Nikko/ES; expect the unexpected.

This 1 winter unprotected 2 yr Nikko has 3-4 small flower buds/pods about 1 inch in diameter up near the top of the plant; which is very similiar to my winter unprotected ES.

The 2 flat-box protected Nikkos now also have similiar buds/pods growing, albiet smaller in size. Overall the protected ones are at this moment a bit behind the unprotected one in development. Probably I should have removed the protection a week or 2 earlier?

I was also very surprised by 1 nearby ES I planted last spring. Last month I saw a small flower developing very low on the plant, few inches above the ground. It has been in bloom for the last 2 weeks and is about 6 inches in diameter. The other flowers near the top are much slower and are still green and growing. So this 1 ES is far ahead in producing blooms than my others which all seem to be in sync with each other.

I also protected 1 ES to see what would happen and it has about 24 green flowers growing in varying sizes from 1/2 to 4 inches. My unprotected ES only have 4-6 smaller flowers developing.

I also noted that the National Arbor Foundation has changed my zone from 4 to 5 due to weather during the last decade.

Still don't know just what my 2 protected old Nikkos will do. First year with any green growth on the old canes and maybe I'll get a few flowers too. Cheerio, Jack

Hay and Yellowgirl,

I am certain that you are correct about Nikkos not really being Nikkos. All Nikkos are not equal. That 1 young, unprotected Nikko---it is really NOT a real Nikko at all. It is behaving more like an ES. Or some other remontant. I looked closely at it today and it now has about 8 large(7-9") flowers near the bottom, middle, and top. And strangely it is ahead of and outperforming the 2 young Nikkos I protected and bought at the same time, same place, planted in the same garden.

Must be something in the DNA, Cheers, JK

ps: I guess the best way for me to be sure is to not protect these 3 young Nikkos overwinter and see what happens next summer?

Somewhow I overlook this particular thread where a lot my own thoughts on a subject "Nikko is no Nikko" was expressed.
Coincidently, just yesterday in a '2007 Banner Year...' thread I wrote two fairly lenghty posts on a subject.
Just copying them here,

Posted by ego45 6bCT (My Page) on Thu, Jul 19, 07 at 10:35

"Katy,
I certainly respect your opinion and I'm myself having some 'issues' with Nikko, however would like to say a few (actualy not just a few [g] ) words in its defence.
First and foremost, exactly in a same way as PG become a common name for all paniculatas for non-gardening public ( or Xerox for any brand of copy machine, Jeep for SUV etc), Nikko Blue name for many years was and for the general public is an equivalent of a 'blue mophead hydrangea'.
Not a very long ago, before current hydrangea cultivars craze took a place, Nikko or Nikko-alike hydrangeas were the only choice for the most homeowners. Given its name recognition and ease of propagation/growing to commercial size mass growers even didn't want to bother with ordering new name tags or marketing efforts.
That is how market become saturated with generic 'me-too-like-Nikko' mopheads all bearing the same NB name.
Add to this a fact that if you sell your house new owners wouldn't remember (even if they'll be interested to even ask you the names of hydrangeas) neither name Dooley or Altona or any other names you grow except one, NIKKO.
It's a brand name. Period.
What is sold under this name is a different story.
I'm writing this for so long just to make a point that there is a Nikko and there are a Nikko-types.
My guess is that to find and identify 'true' NB in a sea of N-types is a job for high professionals or CSI.
I'm myself grow 8 plants that could be named NB based on a first glance appearance, but I suspect that only 2 of them are true NB.
This one (about 20 y.old and inherited with a house)

Posted by ego45 6bCT (My Page) on Fri, Jul 20, 07 at 0:35

"I'm probably beating the dead horse here, but still want to add a few things regarding the Nikko.
What are those so-called remontant hydrangeas, Dooley, Penny Mac, All Summer Beauty, ES etc?

They are SELECTIONS.
That's right, they were not discovered in a wild and brought to you 'as is', nor they are the product of many years of hybridization efforts.
They were simply SELECTED for their specific treat-ability to bloom from a secondary buds along the stem or on completely new wood. In another words they are NATURALY occured variances of the existing plants.
The only questions is how the owners called them before they were SELECTED, RENAMED and commercionalized?
I'm 100% sure, answer is - Nikko Blue, as it was and still is a generic name for a generic mophead.
I hope you noticed that all so-called Nikkos are not equal, neither in size, habit, form, color and size of the leaves nor in a color, density and size of the flowerheads.
That is because they are propagated from the different parent plants. And those parents were propagated from the different parents and so on so on. Some parents had all necessary attributes of the 'original' Nikko, but some kept only part of them and as generations of vegetative propagation went by some attributes were lost as unnecessary for the plant, but name stayed the same.
On an opposite side, some qualities were naturaly enhanced as plants were adopting themselves to the new growing and harsher conditions.
That is why we have some Nikkos that are not blooming in z7 CT and ES (formerly Nikko Blue according to my theory) that is blooming in z4/5 MN."

And another coincident, in another thread someone from z5/MA posted this with a picture of a perfect dk.blue hydrangea.
Posted by littleonefb z5MA (My Page) on Thu, Jul 19, 07 at 23:54

"My neighbors voted 2 pics of standouts and they have been this way for a couple of weeks.
This one of a blue hydrangea which gets darker as the flowers fully open with the nasturtium underneath them. I have no idea what kind of hydrangea it is. Hubby gave them to me about 26 years ago around Easter time. He bought them in the market because they where blue and he knows I love blue flowers.
I took the chance that they would be hardy to this area and planted them in the bed under the front picture window and held my breath till the following spring. Sure enough they have been there every year and blooming away, except the summer following that bitter cold winter we had. Only 3 blooms that year. The stems readily root right through the mulch when held down by a rock, so now I have the 2 original plants that I keep cutting back as they get to large, 2 others from rooted stems and my neighbor has 6 of them that I rooted for her.
If anyone can give me an idea of what kind it is, I'd love to know. I never see anyone else growing a blue hydrangea with flowers this deep a blue."

Can't be a one warm winter fluke, 26 years of continuous bloom says something or not?

Oh excellent!!! This should be 'REQUIRED READING'. I told you that others could articulate it better than I (lol) and EGO came to the rescue again!!!....yg

YG, I definitely agree with you. I had read the first part of ego45's post on the NE forum this morning and I went out to look at my unexpectedly blooming Nikko again to make sure. Then I read the 2nd part and it all makes sense.

Kudos for your excellent Nikko insight and explanation, ego45, Cheerio, JK