The experts will probably chime in here if I'm wrong, but I think neither strawberries nor kiwis have enough natural pectin to gel on their own, hence the added pectin.

I've had very good results with the low/no sugar pectins that are readily available in the stores. They make a softer-set jam than the regular pectins. I usually use just 2 cups of regular sugar when using low/no sugar pectin, but you can experiment with varying sugar amounts to suit your taste.

Dare I go again about the virtes of Pomona pectin. With it, your usually going to have a good set, whether is a single, double, or even quadruple batch. Sugar means nothing either, as it has no need to set with sugar. Most of my jellies are sugarless and I never had good luck with the low/no sugar pectins as it seemed to 'weep' a bit after it was opened.

I make strawberry jam all the time without added pectin and haven't had any problems. But strawberries grown here have greater acidity, and that is a factor.

If you make a jam without added pectin you can control the set by temperature. So cooking the mixture to 218-219 degrees will give you syrup. 220-221 will give you jam and 222 would be a very firm set.

A strawberry jam without commercial pectin will tend to a softer set anyway since strawberries are not high-pectin and won't require as much sugar either. Commercial pectin (with the exception of low-methyl pectins like Pomona) requires additional sugar to set.

Carol

Awesome! Thank you so much! You all have been so helpful! I am so glad to hear I don't need as much sugar either, as this stuff is SWEET!!! Way more than necessary. Thank you, you all have given me some wonderful information!
Becki

This is so wonderful! I have made 2 batches so far today. Original recipe called for 3 C. crushed strawberries, 3 diced kiwi fruit, 5 C. sugar, 1 T. bottled lemon juice, and one packet of powdered pectin (off the top of my head at least.) My first batch today I made exactly the same, except no pectin, and used the juice of one small lemon rather than the bottled (after perusing the posts on Ferber jams and such, which I can't wait to try!) It fairly quickly hit 220 degrees, and looked like it will set (though I didn't do the cold plate test - if it doesn't set, I'm not too worried about it.) Since that worked so well, the next batch I decreased the sugar to 4 C., as I thought it was really sweeter than necessary. This batch got stuck at 215, and then again at 218, but finally reached 220. It definitely seems like it will set as well. I am totally loving this ability to play around with this!

Now, I have another question. As my husband absoulutely loves this stuff, he thinks I can make a little money selling it. We already do the farmer's market, as we raise hens and sell our eggs there. So... I am planning on taking some and trying to sell it. I plan to make some little thumbprint cookies, and let people sample it on them, if they like. I am really looking forward to trying some of the Ferber recipes and others I've seen on this forum. My question is this, am in infringing on copyrights if I sell them? The strawberry kiwi I'm not worried about, as I am changing it from the original recipe. But, if I follow a recipe to a "T", am I wrong to try to sell it? (We are constantly looking for ways to add to our very meager income - but I don't want to do it the wrong way, you know?) Okay, so now to just get ahold of a copy of Mes Confitures! (You know what will be on my Christmas list this year!)

Becki

I wouldn't make Ferber's recipes to sell. They're labor-intensive and sometimes require "exotic" ingredients. Depending upon your area, it might be difficult to charge a cost commensurate with your materials (jars, lids, fruit, sugar) and labor.

Since money's tight, if you have access to a library, see if they have the book in their collection or can get it through inter-library loan. That way you can be sure if it's for you before anyone in the family purchases it for a gift.

Someone else who's really really good with preserves is Madelaine Bullwinkel. (Gourmet Preserves Chez Madelaine.) Her book is much less expensive and she explains a lot more than Ferber does. Also, her book includes recipes with just a bit of pectin to assure a set in some cases. She also has recipes for low-sugar spreads.

But regardless, you'll find lots of non-copyrighted recipes for no-pectin jams all over. Basically it's 1/2 fruit and 1/2 sugar (by weight, not cups) and then generally some lemon juice. If the fruit is riper, there's more natural sugar, so you can reduce the granulated sugar. But to assure a good set it's helpful to use 1/4 underripe fruit to 3/4 ripe. As fruit ripens the pectin level goes down, so the underripe fruit boosts the pectin and helps ensure a good set.

People are hungry for good, natural products, so a simple berry jam, an apple butter or a marmalade should sell well. Start with the basics; then you can experiment and branch out. It's also easy to individualize preserves in small ways that make them yours. For example, cook an apple jam but add cinnamon and vanilla. Or use maple syrup for part of the sweetening.

Remember, also, with these kinds of preserves, you're working in small batches. There is some latitude for increasing amounts, but it takes some skill and it's better to start small and become familiar with the process.

Frozen fruit works fine for jams. If you have the freezer space, you could gather fruits in the summer when they're cheap and process jams during the winter.

Read around. There're lots of helpful threads on this forum. Also the Extension agencies have posted a lot of helpful info on jam-making.

I hope this helps. Let us know if you have more questions.

Carol

Wow Carol! Thank you for all that info! We are very much into natural things, so I was so glad to learn that pectin is not necessary for a set!

I will certainly check out Chez Madelaine as well!

We sell all natural eggs, and chickens, and when we have it, pork and beef. People around here are GERNERALLY willing to pay more for natural. I was shocked last week when I went to farmer's marked to see the person beside me selling jam (up until then, I thought it was against the rules, but if he can, I'm going to.) Anyway, his was all different flavors of jam, made with zucchini and jell-o. Please do not take offence if that is the way some of you do it, but for me, that just would not cut it!

I was able to get strawberries on sale this week, so I have purchased as many as I think I can get processed reasonably. But it is so good to know that I can freeze them if I need to! Wow! That is a really wonderful piece of information!

Anyway, that man was selling his zucchini jello jam for $3/half pint. I don't see why I can't sell my strawberry-kiwi jam, made with real strawberries and kiwis for $4/half pint, which will net over a $2 profit on my materials. This doesn't count labor, but as I'm not making money anyway, I don't consider my time very expensive! : ) I think that recipes requiring more expensive ingredients, could be sold for more. Peronally, I don't think $4 for 8 oz. of homemade jam made with all natural ingredients is incredulous, though I'm sure some people there will, just as some people think $1.50 for a dozen all natural eggs is way too high, and some people think it is incredibly reasonable. I am certainly not in this to make a lot of money. Just add a small amount of income doing something I really enjoy. I have just found that I love canning, and I think that jams are marketable, and very enjoyable to make!

I'm sure you will here more questions out of me! ; )

Becki

Well, I'm not into jell-o in jam but to each his own.

Now that I think of it, the very best "learning" book for your purposes is The Jamlady Cookbook. It's a veritable course in jam-making. Also she built her career selling jams in the Chicago area. If you can only afford one book, this one goes to the head of the list.

If you freeze the fruit, the easiest thing to do is prep and pre-measure the fruit for the recipe you have in mind. The quality is best if you add the sugar also, but if you're short of space, then you can skip that. I make a note on the package of the weight/cups and the page number and name of the book, if it comes from a book. Believe me, it simplifies things three months down the road.

While pectin isn't necessary for a set, there are some jams that are difficult to set without it. Blackberries, plums and apples are easy. Cherries and pears are difficult. If you aren't careful you end up overcooking; it will thicken but instead of a nice jell you get tar.

As things go, it's always better to undercook than overcook a jam. If the strawberry doesn't jell, just call it strawberry topping. Nobody will know it wasn't deliberate.

P.S. You might want to check local regulations for the sale of jams, etc. And if you're selling preserves, you might have good luck selling "go withs" like muffins, quick breads, scones, etc. Or sell mixes. People are in a hurry but like fresh. It wouldn't take much effort to mix up organic flour, bran, baking powder, brown sugar, etc. and make up a label for the additions for a batch of bran muffins or whatever. Use a nice plastic bag with a twist tie and dump with a little bag of raisins, put the whole shebang in a little brown lunch bag, roll down the top, punch holes with a punch and thread red ribbon through with a tag.

Easy-Peasy. The kids can help bag things up (if some are old enough).

Carol

Wonderful ideas, Carol! Your input is priceless! I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the ideas and information you have given me! Our last two markets of the year are tomorrow and the next Thursday, so I am going to do as much as I can before then, and hopefully if people like what I have, they will give me a call for more. Otherwise, I'll plan to be there again next year! I also have a craft show toward the end of November that I plan to have a table at, so I am going to do all I can before that! For tomorrow, I have so far 30 half-pints of strawberry-kiwi preserves, 6 pints of the same, plus 5 pints of strawberry-kiwi topping! I plan to make more later today, so I will likely add 12 more half-pints and 6 more pints (as that's what jars I have left.) I wish I had more varieties on the jam, but for now, that's what I have the ingredients for, so that's what I'll start out with! I've been baking like crazy this morning. I have dough chilling in the fridge for the almond thumbprint cookies I will make available for sampling the jam, plus pastry dough and filling for some almond pastry pillows I am making. I have bittersweet biscotti cooling after it's first baking, and have yet to make a vanilla bean biscotti (but I only have 2 cookie sheets, so I won't make that until the bittersweet is all finished.

Tonight, when I go to town to pick up one of my sons from football practice, I'll stop at the store and get the things to make some muffin mix to sell as well. That is an excellent idea! I was already planning something like that for gift baskets I am planning on making for my craft show.

I am very fortunate to have a big walk-in freezer, so if I run out of room for frozen fruit ready for jam making, I can use that (though it costs a fotune to run, so that would be a last resort - we just have it for when we have large amounts of meat that needs to get frozen. We figure it costs us about $2/day to run, so it's not really very cost effective, unless you have a lot in it!)

I will request those books from our library, but I won't hold my breath on that! For now, if I make enough tomorrow at market, I will get The Jamlady Cookbook, and wait on the others. I am hoping that I can get them through Paperback Swap (they are on my wishlist now), or as gifts - if you haven't used PBS before, I highly reccomend it - www.paperbackswap.com.

Again, thank you so much, Carol!

I don't think the Jamlady Cookbook is available in paperback. Nor is Ferber. The Bullwinkel book is.

Thanks for the PBS suggestion. The very last thing in the world I need is more books! What I need is to get rid of, not add. I'm boxing some up for a charity sale right now.

By the way, you do realize when you mention recipes like almond pastry pillows and almond thumbprints, the "rule" is you have to share, LOL. However, you do get a pass until after the markets and any holiday frenzy!

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: Jamlady Cookbook

Actaully on PBS, they don't have to be paperback, that's just the name they gave it. I've received all kind of hardcover books - I love it!

I will definitely post those recipes - just waiting to see how they turn out before I do so! This is my first try at making biscotti, and it's a bit of a learning experience. I do a lot of baking, but this is a new one for me (my specialty is actually cakes - but frosted cakes just don't seem right to bring to farmer's market.) We'll see if the biscotti makes it to market, or stays home for the kids to eat (as they don't care how they look!) Don't ask me why I am trying all new recipes to bring with me! I think I am glutten for punishment!

Becki, I don't know what your area is like but I would bet you could charge more then $4 for a half pint. I would guess $5 or $6 to start. This is something I have thought of doing as well.

Also, you can sell jams that follow someone else's recipe without a problem. Actually the truth be told recipes cannot really be copyrighted.

I will see how much the jam lady at our farmer's market charges.

-Robin

Lists of ingredients can't be copyrighted but descriptions of cooking processes in a writer's individual style can be. Many recipes (i.e. a standard brownie) are too "generic" for this to be an issue, but those that bear the stamp of their creator fall into a different category.If you look at the work of some of the most recognized chefs and cooks, you'll note their styles are quite distinctive.

That aside, you also have the totality of a work. No other work (and no other recipes) are like Christine Ferber's. Contrast that with the Jamlady's style. Equally unique and entirely different.

Marcy Goldman is strenuous in protecting her copyrighted recipes and when she sees them posted off-site, (Her recipes are available by subscription.) does object. I've seen that happen on Bread-Bakers, where she has asked specifically that her recipes not be posted. No surprise since she develops the recipes and they are her livelihood.

There was a lengthy discussion of this issue on King Arthur Flour's Baking Circle. On that forum it's no longer a general practice to post recipes from books even with attribution; instead the source or an appropriate link is provided. One of KAF's staff members said their rule-of-thumb is that a recipe becomes "original" when at least three ingredients/processes are altered.

Carol

Thanks, Robin! I would love to hear what the people sell jam for at your market! Maybe I'll go up to $5. I'll talk it over with a few people around here, and see what they think.

I try really hard not to infinge on other people's copyrights. My husband has a copyright on the hay feeder he designed, and although it should keep people from copying it, it doesn't. We just really don't have the funding to be able to protect it, legally. So, that said, I don't want to abuse other's generosity by making money from their copyrighted creations. I know it's not cheap to get something copyrighted (though maybe it's different in cookbooks, I don't know.) Plus, although I love to get ideas from others, and learn more by seeing how others do things, I really LOVE coming up with things that are totally my own creations! : )

Becki

Here is the recipe for the thumbprints I'm making. They are delicious, but I'm afraid the almond flavor in them might overpower the jam, so I'll have to make sure to put a generous dab of jam on them! This is from the Land O Lakes Holiday Cookies magazine. I just made the cookie dough and baked it with a thumbprint and will put in the jam when people want to try it (and forgo the glaze.) But, I'll write the recipe as printed in the magazine.

Raspberry Almond Shortbread Thumbprints
Makes 3 1/2 dozen

COOKIE
1 Cup butter, softened
2/3 Cup sugar
1/2 teaspoon almond extract
2 Cups all purpose flour
1/2 Cup raspberry jam

GLAZE
1 Cup powdered sugar
1 1/2 teaspoon almond extract
2 to 3 teaspoons water

Combine butter, sugar and 1/2 teaspoon almond extract in large bowl. Beat at medium speed, scraping bowl often, until creamy. Reduce speed to low; add flour. Beat until well mixed. Cover; refrigerate until firm (at least 1 hour.)

Heat oven to 350 degrees F. Shape dough into 1-inch balls. Place 2 inches apart onto ungreased cookie sheets. Make indentation in center of each cookie with thumb (edges may crack slightly.) Fill each indentation with about 1/4 teaspoon of jam.

Bake for 14 to 18 minutes or until edges are lightly browned. Let stand 1 minute, remove from cookie sheets. Cool completely.

Meanwhile, combine powdered sugar, 1 1/2 teaspoons almond extract and enough water for desired glazing consistency in small bowl with wire whisk until smooth. Drizzle over cooled cookies.

Carol, Your description of the way a recipe can be copyrighted is much better then the first draft I wrote earlier today and then deleted. So I erased it and wrote what I did :-) I think your explanation was better then I have ever read and now I fully understand it and can explain it.

I am always amazed when I see how recipes are stolen from cookbook to cookbook with such minimal changes. I have even found a rip off of my original strawberry jam recipe that I have posted here. grated orange zest instead of a whole chopped orange and a different liqueur then drambuie, but a similar one.

Thanks as well for mentioning Marcy Goldman. I googled her and found her site along with an amazing sounding cake recipe. I don't have a sweet tooth but this one doesn't sound too sweet. it is an Italian Plum-Cream Cheese Coffee Cake. Yum!!

-Robin

Here is a link that might be useful: Marcy Goldman's site

Robin, I added that recipe to my files also. Did you sign up for her emails? She normally has one free recipe per issue. I have subscribed to her site (just once) and may do so again in the future. It is an incredible treasure-trove of recipes.

Marcy Goldman is a good businesswoman. I can understand why, when one has worked long and hard to develop an individual recipe, it can be galling to see it posted far-and-wide without even a brief attribution.

And I can understand your frustration at seeing your recipe joining that category of unattributed originals. I seem to remember Annie's Salsa is out there also.

There have been several notable cases of recipe plagiarism in cookbooks, some of which have been expensive mistakes. The Richard Olney/Richard Nelson case is a classic example.

The link below includes two articles. The second describes the Olney-Nelson lawsuit. I think the whole thing makes for fascinating reading.

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: The Ethics of Culinary Plagiarism

Okay, got more questions! I am working on a Ferber recipe, I believe - the stawberry with mint and pepper (I really want to see how this tastes!) I put everything (strawberries, sugar and lemon juice) in a crock (the closest I had to a porcelain dish), but...
#1 - Am I supposed to mix them, or just leave them as I put them in?
#2 - Do I put this in the fridge to macreate, covered with parchment, or just leave on the counter? I'm guessing the former, but don't want to assume anything.

Thanks!
Becki

I meant macerate. : )
Becki

You can put the fruit you're macerating (actually, I kind of like macreate) in any non-reactive bowl or container, so it could be pyrex, stainless, tupperware, etc. They may lack the panache of porcelain, but all will work well.

It helps dissolve the sugar if you gently fold the fruit into it, but you don't want to stir vigorously and break up the berries.

Refrigerate at this point. After the first cooking you don't have to. Just cover your container with a cloth (not a lid - a cloth helps prevent condensation) and set aside on the counter.

Carol

Thank you, Carol! You are a wealth of information!

Becki

Hi again! Okay, I am loving this! I just brought my macerated strawberries to a simmer, and they are just the loveliest color! Beautiful! Now they are back in the fridge until tomorow! I love how this whole process really only makes you do a small amount each day as well! Pretty simple, so far!

Now, as people really liked my jam at market yesterday (I did get $5 per 1/2 pint, and sold about 12 - it was a pretty slow day at market, as market is winding down and there aren't as many vendors there anymore, especially not the most popular.) Anyway, I want to try more flavors! I did the No Sugar Strawberry Pineapple Jam that Carol posted at some point. I thought it would be nice to have a no sugar added item. I made 2 batches of the that, and ended up with 5 1/2 pints. I used one as a sample, and the rest all sold. I was really happy with that! People were really happy that I had something with no added sugar! Personally, (sorry!) I don't care for it, but people who aren't used to a lot of sugar really liked it. So, more of that for next week. Okay, so on to my new questions!

I am going to try making Linda Lou's Apple Pie Jam - sounds SO yummy!!! I am wondering if this can be made without adding the pectin? I am guessing so, as my understanding is apples are pretty high in natural pectin (right?), but with all the other things added, I don't want to ruin it by not adding the pectin. I got Granny Smith apples, if it makes any difference. I just don't want to add the pectin if it is going to make a firm setting jam - just REALLY don't like that firm set! And I've not gotten anything but when using pectin.

Oh, one more question. I've read about the green apple jam used as pectin. Pretty much all the apples around here were lost, with a late spring freeze, so the only place to get apples right now, right near us at least, is at the grocery store. They don't carry underripe fruit (except bananas!) I saw mentioned somewhere that Granny Smiths work for a green apple jam, but it wasn't really referring to a jam to be used as pectin, rather as one to eat like that. So, are GS's any good for a pectin jam, or no? I love the idea of a totally natural pectin, when I need it!

Boy am I full of questions! You have no idea the amount of time I have speant reading and searching all the jam stuff!

I requested that the local library purchase the Jamlady Cookbook and Mes Confitures, but I'll have to see what happens with that! Last time I requested one, I finally gave up and bought it new, only to have them call 2 weeks later and say they had the book now and got to have it first! (I didn't want to tell them I got tired of waiting, so I went and checked it out, even though I already had it at home - didn't want them to think I was unappreciative!) I won't be suprised if that happens again, as i am REALLY wanting these books! (Yes, I made enough last night to buy one, but hubby just told me last night that ABSOLUTELY NO unnecessary money gets spent for a while, so I figured I'd better contribute my profits to the home finances instead!)

I'm sure I posted the Strawberry Pineapple in response to a request. I haven't made it myself. Those low-sugar spreads fill a useful niche, but they don't have the same mouthfeel or flavor profile as a traditional preserve, which I prefer.

But again, everyone's different, and as you saw at the market, there are people who because of diabetes or other conditions, or just preference, really appreciate the opportunity to buy a spread like that.

You can certainly make apple pectin with store-bought apples. I would think Granny Smiths would work just fine. I'm assuming you can find organic unwaxed ones. The pectin base may not be as firm or strong as that made with unripe apples, but it should still serve.

The apple pie jam is somewhat the same as the Habanero Gold in that there's a certain amount of liquid which the pectin thickens so that the apple pieces are suspended in a jell. You can make a spiced apple preserve and it will certainly jell, but it won't have that same "look" or consistency. I don't much like liquid pectin. It tastes "chemical" to me, but I do use it in the Habanero Gold and I'd use it in this recipe for the reason I mentioned.

If you look on that other thead, the Mes Confitures one, you'll see Melly posted a beautiful picture of a natural apple preserve with vanilla. Once you have your green apple jelly, you could make something like that, subbing the spices in the Apple Pie Jam.

Carol

I used apple peel jelly that I made from all of last year's peelings. They were unsprayed apples from my friend's yard, so I wasn't worried about using just peels. I was a soft set, but it worked just fine for the apple preserves. In that recipe for the apple preserves, you scoop the solids out with a strainer and put them in the jars. Then you cook the syrup until it jells. I had to cook it to a higher temperature to get it to set - about 5 or 6 degrees higher than normal, but it eventually got there. Since it is a preserve, it isn't as firm as a jam but the apples did stay suspended.

Thanks for the idea Carol. I've thought about trying the apple pie without the pectin as well, but hadn't thought of modifying that particular recipe. I think the walnut would be a nice addition. When I made real apple pie, I use a crumb topping with pecans. I could just used cinnamon instead of vanilla. I think the apple jelly would take the place of the extra added liquid and pectin.

If you go to surejell's website, they have the recipe in a surejell (powdered pectin) form as well as the certo. The last time I made the apple pie jam, I forgot to add the brown sugar, but it still set and tasted fine.