Thank you so much for all of the help and updates.Love the Salsa.

The main issue with this is that it doesn't take into account the density. Too many people want to drain the tomatoes or want to cook it down too much.
I do have a recipe I use for salsa that I pressure can, but I do not drain it off nor do I cook it down much, mostly just get it really hot.

So even though it's from an extension service affiliated with a State University, it isn't safe? Or it's probably safe, but doesn't spell things out sufficiently to address mistakes that people might make if they don't follow directions?

Annie

Annie,
It is as you stated last, it doesn't spell out things sufficiently to address mistakes if they don't follow directions. The density issue is something that most people do not consider that is just as important to canning as ph level.
Things like draining tomatoes if not instructed to do so, cooking longer than the time given in a recipe, adding starches, etc.

That sounds like an issue to take up with Washington Extension. Linda Lou, given your background, you might be in the best position to point out the error.

As it stands, however, currently we have a Washington State Extension document online that we are NOT supposed to follow. If that is indeed the case, it puts people in an untenable position.

What are conscientious home food preservers to think? That we should pay attention to Extension service guidelines except when we shouldn't?

What an impossible situation.

Carol

I can see what I can do. Not all MFP's are even aware of the density issue. Truthfully, not all have the same quality of training. That, and it take years and years to learn. One never keeps learning, either.
I know this from learning from Elizabeth Andress about the density. She has been amazing at teaching little bits of things that otherwise I would not have learned. Wish she would do another video seminar with us like we had before. We could ask questions live and get answers. Really cool.
Anyway, she has taught us those things about how cooking something longer will change the density, the same about draining things, also not to use precanned tomatoes in recipes that state fresh.
Perhaps these people that posted the information may not even be aware of these issues.
Technically, it can be used, but it is those extra variables that makes it sticky. I have that recipe that I had checked and I do pressure can it for the 35 min. It is quite a bit like Annie's recipe. Very similar to canning stewed tomatoes.

Linda Lou, would you mind sharing your recipe? That might be helpful.

And of course, any salsa recipe sufficiently acidified for BWB could be pressure-canned (same time) instead, for those who prefer pressure-canning.

I told Annie I thought it was interesting that document was online. From one perspective I can understand it. There are many many people out there who are very "attached" to their homemade recipes and who have open-kettle canned or BWB canned them for years. For them, pressure canning at least greatly reduces the risk.

Maybe Dr. Andress could offer her perspective. She may not be aware of that particular page and could encourage some clarification re the density issue or might recommend the entire reference be redacted.

Carol

Yes, it can be confusing. You get a memo from an extension service, which we have long been told are safe sources of recipes, and suddenly, they aren't. Or maybe they are.

I agree, any BWB salsa that is properly acidified could be pressure canned for extra safety, clearly. But what about those unacidified ones?

Linda Lou, does yours have any acidity at all or is it simply vegetables and seasonings?

Annie

It has added acid, but not much. I have to post it later. Just had a busy day, had a dentist appt. out of town. Went to see my "kids". Took my grandson some of the zucchini candy. He wanted to sit and eat the whole bag. We had to take it away from him.
Got home, with a lot of produce from my daughters house. Then, on the doorstep was more zucchini, peppers, and tomatoes. It is raining produce !! I was really glad about the zucchini. I have 5 more trays of the candy going now.
Been a long day. My feet hurt.
Don't want to complain, since I have plenty of food.

I know the feeling, I'm on day three of a three day yard sale, 4 other people and for some reason they decided it was a good idea to bring their kids. 5 children under the age of 8 at a yard sale. All Day. At my house. Sigh.

I'm tired and other than the tomato butter that's in the oven thickening, nothing canned.

While you're at it, Linda Lou, the zucchini candy recipe would be much appreciated, I'd like to try that!

Annie

Yeah, LindaLou, you know you can't "drop" things like Zucchini Candy without piqueing some interest!!

Sounds..............interesting........LOL!

I'm watching this thread with much interest, but I am perfectly happy with Annie's recipe!

Sorry about the kids/no canning/garage sale, Annie!
I was going to post that I had an "Annie Day".
Mom's here and the two of us processed 40 lbs. of peaches, 30 lbs. of apples into applesauce, 9 lbs. of wax beans, baked 5 dozen rolls for a picnic tomorrow (that I'm not even going to, mom is), and made 2 Meal In A Loaf (one for dinner, one for tommorrow's potluck).
Whew! This glass of wine is tasting pretty darned good right now!

Deanna

So...theoretically, to use a popular example, one could substitute red for green peppers in Annie's salsa....right? Or, do you think they're saying that it is only ok to substitute one green pepper for another green pepper? I'm just thinking that there has to be a difference between green versus red bell peppers based on how they taste...

one could substitute red for green peppers in Annie's salsa....right?

Right. It is the pH of peppers in general, not their taste or their color or their heat index rating, that is the issue. Various types of peppers can always be substituted for each other as long as the total amount of peppers used in the same as stipulated in the recipe.

DO NOT increase the total amount of peppers in any canning recipe. However, you may substitute one variety of peppers for another to suit you taste.

Dave

I agree, you can sub red for green peppers, or all hot peppers for the sweet peppers, which is what I do for Elery's batch of salsa.

So now my understanding of the memo is that it IS safe, as long as the directions are followed. Since I could see any canning recipe being unsafe if the directions aren't followed, I guess I don't see a problem with it. Just don't do something you're not told to do, don't change time or pressure, don't reduce one ingredient and increase another. Follow directions, like all other canning recipes, and it's OK.

Annie

I've brought this up a couple of other times but never really
got a straight answer so Ill give it another shot after reading this. So according to the article and comments above, it would be ok to PC Annie's Salsa for 15 minutes?

We can't give you any different answer than in the past Andy. The salsa recipe was never tested and approved for pressure canning, only for BWB, so the best anyone can offer is the same as it says above:

"The salsa should be hot packed into pint or half-pint jars. DO NOT use quart jars. Process in a pressure canner 35 minutes at 10 pounds pressure, if using a weighted gauge or 11 pounds pressure with a dial gauge."

The is the technically correct answer.

In reality, could it be PC'd for 15 mins? IMO yes if you use the full cup of acid. But if you use only the 1/3 cup of acid recipe then I'd go with PC at 30-35 mins. That has been the consistent recommendation all along.

Dave

Dave, I agree, I see no reason why the properly acidified salsa couldn't be processed at 15 minutes ina pressure canner at 11 pounds of pressure, but any less acidified versions should be processed at 35 minutes in the pressure canner.

It's one of those things I mentioned on another thread, there are just some things that my common sense tells me should be OK, even if not "tested and approved", and I think this is one of them unless I get some very solid evidence to the contrary.

Annie

Annie-

Sorry I used your salsa recipe as an example - yikes - another unintentional thread on the issue! Thanks to everyone else about the response on peppers. I think I'll never get over the fact that they have the same ph considering how they can all vary so much on sweetness and heat, but I do get the logic of the issue. I guess the same applies to tomato varieties as well. Thanks!

Hi,

I am a new member but a many year canner, to start with.

Am I understanding these guidlines correctly?

If I start with a salsa recipe, such as one of the Washington State ones on NCHFP, then eliminate the peppers and acid, and switch the herbs/spices to (fresh) basil and (fresh) oregano; I can then process the resulting salsa at 11 pounds/35 minutes.

If so, I have just found canning guidlines for my favorite cooking recipe for chunky tomato sauce for pasta.

Sharon

Here is a link that might be useful: Salsa recipe from WSU to modify

Sharon, that's how I would interpret those guidelines. I think the memo is saying that it's preferable to use a tested recipe (as those are guaranteed to be safe) but if you MUST can something untested, this is the method you should use.

Annie

If determined to do so, it would be easy to read way to much into these guidelines. Try hard enough and one could interpret it as meaning you can just make up or use any tomato-based recipe you want as long as you pressure canned it for 35 mins. In other words, blanket permission to jump off the pier without a life jacket, right? :) NOT!!

That is NOT what they are saying.

The focus of this memo is salsa and only salsa and it is specific to salsa. It clearly states:

When canning salsa use only recipes provided by the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) or your county Cooperative Extension office. DO NOT use recipes printed before 1988.

It does not say or even imply that you can apply these guidelines to anything else except at your own risk.

Dave

Dave, I thought that's what I just said, that only tested recipes were guaranteed to be safe, but if you MUST use an untested (and therefore possibly unsafe) recipe, you might be able to reduce your risk by pressure canning per directions.

Some people are going to can family favorites or untested recipes or something they got from their Grandmother. They just are, no matter what the experts or guidelines say. I think this memo is simply a way of reducing the risk, not negating it, and not making any guarantees.

Annie

Not disagreeing with you Annie. Just reinforcing that no matter how much Sharon or anyone else (including me) might wish to, we shouldn't apply one set of recipe guidelines to other recipes.

Dave

Not to start a heated discussion, but. . .

I am NOT proposing to can just "any tomato based recipe". I am proposing to follow the guidlines put forward to the public by a research based State Co-op Extension service.

The directions for pressure canning are simple, and straightforward, and contain no language warning that the product will be unfit to eat after processing.

There are extensive warnings about following salsa directions explicitly when water bath canning. We all understand and agree that those warning are of the utmost importance, including the need for proper acidification and not increasing the ratio of low acid veges to tomatoes.

Perhaps I should have stated my intentions differently. I plan to pressure can at 11 lbs/ 35 minutes a salsa with a much lower pepper content (since I am allergic to peppers), different dried herbs (a safe substitution) and a different and lower source of acid (red wine). I will be following an approved recipe for amounts of tomatoes vs garlic, onions, and herbs; for amounts of tomato paste; and for length of cooking (to control for density issues).

After canning this salsa, I may choose to heat it until boiling and serve it over pasta.

It still seems like I am within the guidlines put out by WSU.

Sharon

I tried pressure canning salsa once, about 11 years ago. I think the BWB kind is just a tad too acid for my taste, so I tried it in a pressure canner. In one of my books, either the Ball Blue Book of Canning or "Keeping the Harvest" I read that when pressure canning a mix of low acid foods, you should pressure can for the amount of time of the lowest acid food. In my case, it was the green peppers, which I saw on a chart needed to be pressure canned for 45 min. Probably not necessary for that long since my recipe did have some acid in it. Anyway, I was not that crazy about the final product. It seemed like all the flavor had been washed out of it. Plus, for me with a small pressure canner, it is just a real pain and I haven't gone back, I use the BWB recipes. But it is nice to know I could try some other ones too, in the pressure canner. Salsa is such a fantastic thing to make at home, it's no wonder people want a lot of options for home canning. I don't know if I will manage to get ANY salsa this year, between my schedule, the rotten weather, and late blight. My homegrown romas are exceedingly bitter--even the squirrels won't touch them.