Many new intros being sold for $100-300 simply are not worth it. Look at how many of those sell for $20-35 on the Lily Auction only two to three years later. Very few daylilies hold their value for any time. Those that do are usually outstanding hybridizing parents or beauties that multiply very slowly. That being said, do I buy new intros?
Yes, because I hybridize on a hobbyist level and want the genes. Are these special plants good garden performers? Not always. Here are some examples:

1. PRECIOUS CANDY - I bought this one to use in hybridizing blue eyes and edges. My purchase was based on the photo in Stamile's catalog and his written description. Contrary to what he wrote, it was a terrible opener for me until rebloom. The color on the first set of blooms was muddy and splotchy. It improved on rebloom, but still was nowhere close to his photo. I get rebloom on only about a tenth of cultivar reputed to "rebloom," so I may never see good looking flowers on it again. Did it have good branching and bud count? Yes, coming from Stamile's Florida climate and highly fertilized stock. Will it ever have that kind of branching and bud count again here? Probably not. Other Stamiles have not. It was a wonderful pod and pollen parent, and I got a lot of seeds from it - most of which I sold on the Lily Auction. So I have recouped two-thirds of my purchase price. Will I keep the plant in my garden? Probably only for one more year. Will I plant any seeds from it? Very few. I don't want to produce poor openers with splotchy, muddy-looking blooms. I will plant seeds only from crosses where the other parent is a strong early morning opener with no splotchiness even with the heavy morning dew we experience in June.

2. SUN BEAR - I had to have this Gossard intro because it was a very different-looking toothy cultivar, and I wanted to cross it with other toothies. Did it look anything like the photo when it bloomed. No, it was butt ugly. Did it have teeth? Yes, nice sharp teeth. Was it a good parent? Most definitely. Will I keep it as a beautiful garden specimen? Absolutely not. It's a horrendous color. I sold most of the seeds on the Lily Auction. I will plant a few just to see what it does. I probably will keep it only one more season.

3. MORT MORSS - While I didn't buy this one as a new intro, I paid nearly $100 for it on the Lily Auction. I was warned by someone here on the Garden Web that I would be disappointed. And I was very disappointed in it both as a garden plant and as a hybridizing parent. The sepals were always discolored and splotchy on every. As a parent, all but one pod aborted. As a pollen parent, it didn't do much better. This year it didn't bloom at all. Would I keep it just as a garden plant? No. I can't take the unsightly sepals - no matter how many pretty white teeth it flashes at me.

If you are not going to hybridize, it's better to wait two or three years after introduction and find out how a cultivar really performs. You'll save yourself a lot of money and heartache.

Debra

First off I want to say that the daylilies I bought from the northern hybridizers that I was mentioning on my original post are not in any way something I choose as something to settle for instead of buying from Florida. The intros from Melanie Mason, Brian Culver, Karol Emmerich, Phil Korth and Don Herr (and some others) were my FIRST choice for daylilies this spring. Yes, I did receive catalogs from most of the southern superstar hybridizers but what I am looking for, I have to find elsewhere.

I want to add hardy dormants and semi evergreens. You are mainly not going to find dormants hybridized in Florida. I also want guaranteed rebloom (or as guaranteed as you can get dealing with the variables of weather and climate). Daylilies with all these requirements don't come from Florida.

I know many of the southern hybridized daylilies, whether totally evergreen or semi evergreen, will do well here. But they would not be expected to rebloom and need some extra care such as more mulching. But the ones I am buying are truely hardy, no mulch required just to make them grow, and of the ones listed as reblooming, they should deffinately rebloom here.

Now I know many of you in colder zones than I do grow the southern evergreens quite sucessfully. Therefore, one might conclude they are truely hardy. I don't think so or they would not need winter mulch and people would not have to plant them in the spring because fall planted ones often do not make it thru the winter.

Now, in the future I will be able to compair the mostly evergreens I planted this year with the mostly dormant and hardy semi evergreens I am getting come spring.

Rita, I think some of your purchases from the northern hybridizers may well be cutting edge. They are probably using hard dormants crossed with those southern fancies and doing it in a greenhouse. If I were up north, I would buy from them too, as well as some from the south to go in a greenhouse.

It may be that we cannot avoid using evergreens for northern breeding. The idea that you are not buying "cutting edge" is valid from a southern perspective, but I would have to say that that opinion does not apply to you.

If I were going to commit to daylilies, I would move father north. If we stay in the south and breed evergreens we are destined to not only repeat the same mistakes that PLAGUE us now, but make it worse.

Stick to your plans and stay focused. Adhere drastically to your goals, and redefine the goals each season. The future of all daylilies is in the hands of dormant breeders. The south has created the disaster we now have, and has no chance of regaining that lost integrity.

Let the evergreens dominate the fancies. You can benefit from them because you should be using some of them. The fancies are half-dead now, and will be worse each year. But, that doesn't mean that you cannot use the genes. Just put little value in your seedlings until they bloom. Make them prove they can survive by culling relentlessly. I think maybe half of them should die.

With the HUGE dilemma we now have with POLLUTED genetics, culling is the answer...but we are forced to use those genes. It may take a long time, and greenhouses may be necessary, but if you avoid the southern saturated and polluted genepools, then you will have a hard time getting results in the seedling beds.

No easy solution to the problem, but it is possible. Unlikely, because the rewards will be few. But you will have personal gratification knowing that you are working for the daylily.

The solution is seedling quantity, combined with extreme culling. That formula has remained constant for 50 years. The problem we have is due to southern hybridizers refusing to let nature cull. They have controlled pathogens and force-fed, pushed, manipulated, and sacrficed their integrity because it is very difficult to get quick results.

My opinion...at this point, there will be very few if any southern hybridizers helping the daylily. It is up to the dormant breeders. Save the daylily from us.

Well, that is a very good point. Exactly how does one measure cutting edge? If its the flower ALONE, then we have to go with the Florida hybridizers. But the northern hybridizers are producing hardy garden plants. So switch the emphasis from the flower face alone and put it on the total package and you are in another ball game entirely. One that Florida would never win. Its this total package that I am looking at.

So I am defining cutting edge as NOT the fanciest flower with the most teeth, but as a fancy flower with everything else going for it that might be plainer. Now I saw might because many of the intros from the northern hybridizers I have personally chosen are as gorgeous as anything available anywhere. But again, beauty is subjective and that is my opinion of the flowers. Others might disagree on the flowers.

I also want to add that being a big blabbermouth, I told numerous people about my daylily purcheses come spring from those northern hybridizers. The comment I posted about not being cutting edge was the one I singled out for this discussion. But I also received many other comments that were very positive about my picks. The comments on Melanie Masons daylilies were that many grew them and most wished that they had more. The comments about Don Herrs were that they were strong garden hardy daylilies and that he was super picky about choosing his introductions. Karol Emmerich is well known and I have never seen anything but praise both for the beauty and quality of her daylilies.

I don't know that I want cutting edge daylilies in my garden. I may cut myself. But seriously, I have a fair selection of southern frillies and northern dormants and even a couple of dormant frillies. Rita, your garden is going to look amazing in a few years. I like the smaller growers too; even the southern ones. I have a few daylilies from Fred Manning, James Townsend, and Tom Maddox(just seedlings).

Edward

Edward, those are some of the best. They have good intros too.

"Karol Emmerich is well known and I have never seen anything but praise both for the beauty and quality of her daylilies" writes NY Rita.

Like any hybridizer it depends on who you talk to and where you look for your information.

But in the case of the Emmerick daylilies there's plenty of questions per their hardiness in the cold north. It's my understanding she will no longer sell plants to two noted Wisconsin hybridizers. These growers test their plants under the full effect of winter.. not mulching or using any wood mulch to mitigate cold penetration into the ground. I've also read and heard doubts expressed from growers in NC and St Loius. As to what plants in particular I do not know as I have no interest in following daylilies that are selected under greenhouse growing conditions.

If there are problems with Karol Emmerich's daylilies, I am not aware of them. Hybridized in zone 4, they certainly should do well in my zone 6. At any rate, I will find out for myself eventually. And if they are not, what does that say for the hardiness of daylilies in general? If a zone four hybridized daylily could not take the cold, then how cold the southern hybridized ones?

I'd suggest a greenhouse located in z4 does not provide a z4 climate. It's also my understanding all the Emmerick daylilies are hybridized in a greenhouse.

Thanks to Simplton and Northerdaylily!! interesting, wonderful posts--

best point, who wants an beautiful unsound Daylily? Like some of the show dogs I see in the ring today--all bling!!!

colette

Karol hybridizes in the greenhouse and raises the plants that will be shipped the next spring there. Everything must pass (with flying colors) life in great outdoors for multiple seasons. If there is a problem with a plant she will be the first to let you know. She seems to be her own severest critic. Karol's images don't begin to do justice to the plants. She often shows pictures of the flower on a bad day. I've never been anything but elated with the plants from Springwood.

Dale

Well for heavens sake! I don't think it's much to ask that a daylily get a few handfuls of mulch thrown at it. Good grief!

My favorite daylily right this instant is one that came out the year before my sister was born and was registered with her name -- first and last name -- by pure coincidence. We're both in our 40's now. I saw it on LA and I'd have given $100 for it. Luckily, I got it for $5. I called right away -- "if Pop introduces one for you, he can't call it "Little ___ _____" He'll have to call it "Big ___ _____"

Oh my, I really tickled myself! Of course, now it's the one I most want to multiply, since my mother wants it as well as my sister.

I posted on several topics which are related, and assumed readers knew what I was talking about. Without seeing my other posts, my meaning here is not clear.

Evergreen daylilies are bred to be weak. Ten years ago, I warned that they were weak, and was attacked by the forum elites and most of the daylily world for that matter. Why? Because that is the only way to keep the secret...attack those who are brave enough to tell the truth. Most of you know this by now (it seems like ancient history). Now, they are borderline trash. They have been inbred so severely that we need to redefine what inbreeding is. We can safely say that if we do not grow them in a controlled environment, some will die (if not most). They simply cannot stand up to nature (they have never encountered nature before).

Southern hybridizers have used every chemical available to maximize their profits and keep the weak plants alive. Now they apparently are trying to make them stronger by fooling them into thinking they are being attacked by bacteria and forcing them to fight back. There is nothing natural about that.

I bought Priceless ($300) and Wedding Gown ($250) last month and they both died without ever growing at all. They were too weak to make the trip. I can only speculate as to why they were that way, but I have a good idea. Frank Smith was no help at all, so I am out $550. If he wants to, go ahead and sue me. I am getting bored anyway.

There is not much of a future for evergreens. It is as close to impossible as it can be. I doubt any southern hybridizer will make the sacrifice to undo 50-75 years of exploitation of the daylily. So, as each season goes by, the fancy daylilies will be weaker and weaker. That is a scientific fact.

In the past, I tried to be compassionate because the fancy daylilies I loved were created by the unethical breeding. But now, we have rust which cannot be controlled or cured. It is all a big lie. Rust is simply hidden away so that buyers can be victimized. It is fraud by definition.

Dormant breeders are forced to use southern genes. If they don't, it will take forever to get results. It is possible to use the weak genes, but it requires relentless culling, and greenhouses. That is practically impossible, but we can do the next best thing. We cannot market any of the seedlings until they have had several generations of culling, and then still just use them for breding and not selling. I suggest it should take a minimum of ten years of breeding and culling to even dent the problems southern breeders have created.

So, why am I saying this? I challenge every EV hybridizer to accept their responsibility and admit to their role in making daylilies what they are. Tell the truth about the lies covering up the HUGE secrets that have been kept from the buyers (victims).

The AHS is not only contributary to the lies, but actually played a major role. It is bureaucracy at its worst. There is absolutely no accountability in modern times, and daylilies are a perfect example.

Yes, the history of dormants also included inbreeding. But by itself, inbreeding is not going to ruin dormants. They cannot be manipulated anywhere near as severley. Even with greenhouses to extend the growing season it cannot compare.

So, if daylilies have any chance at all it is with dormant breeders. Use greenhouses but do not abuse them. Make the seedlings move into the garden at some point and keep them there. Do not grow them artificially in order to multiply them for profit. Grow them naturally.

We all know what I am saying is true. The newcomers are being deceived and always have been. Anyone brave enough to speak up has been attacked or threatened. It is way beyond disgraceful.

Here is the bottom line: EV daylilies are unbelievably beautiful and fancy, and cannot survive nature. We only buy them because we are being fooled or are trying to exploit them for profit or fame. Or, if you are like me, you were foolish enough to think you could take on the challenge and make it right.

There is most likely no future for Evs. They will eventually succumb to pathogens because we will have lost the ability to control nature. Dormants will probably follow the same path because hybridizers are human and it may not be possible to profit and make progress. Is it humanly possible to make such a committment? I say...only if we are forced to.

So, I speak out. Label me a rebel becaue I am. Today, anyone brave enough to speak up is a rebel and belongs in the nuthouse. It is much more socially acceptable to baste in our aura and enjoy our manufactured glory. What a surprise it will be if we have to answer for our sins. Ah well, if we get our excuses in order we can even fool the entire universe.

Show me an honest person, because I am having a hard time finding one. I mean truly honest...no excuses. Oh heck, never mind. Society has no use for truth...lets all just enjoy our perfect daylilies. I have $500 I can blow on an addicton...and daylilies are better than prescription drugs..or are they? How many pills do you take a day?

Cutting edge daylilies.....Hmmm what a question! I've seen
the Beagle ruined in the 23 years that I played that game.
It came to the point that if you had a good sound dog..the
judges didn't know what to do with them as the others were
so horrible.

Humans have always played God and ruined many things...although
the few "the guardians" always continue to strive for better
examples.

To me a "cutting edge" plant will have good plant habits, good
branching, good bud count...then we can look at the face.

Once you get hung up on a certain trait you lose whatever your
forgetting to look at. I don't know about daylilies yet, but
in dogs the easiest trait to change is the face. I always bred
for temperament, health and body first, then put the face on.

My wife and I just started hybridizing 3 years ago. We have lots
to learn, but the seedlings we keep will have good plant habits
with good branching and bud counts first. SO far out of 3000 seedlings
we have a list of about 30 to keep for further evaluation. Maybe
we will get a few out of that number that may have something to
offer in the future. Who knows...seems the best BR and BC are
not the most beautiful in the face, but we will worry about that
later.

As for the southern beauties...we've bought 20-30 of them and learned
a few lessons. One is if they say rebloom don't believe them for Z6
or less. If they say 4 way branching expect 2-3 way. IF they say
25 buds think 15...if 40 think 25. One that reblooms 3-4 times
down south will rebloom once in Z6. Not all are this way, but
atleast 80% have been this way for us. Well now purchase only
multi rebloom, 4-5 way BR, with hugh BC (40-50) from the south.
They end up here 3-4 way branching with 20-30 BC's.

A few that we will continue to use as they have done quite well
here are: Nocturnal Butterfly, Art Gallery Mist, The Band Played On,
and Ada May Music. There are a few more, but those stick in my mind.

Good discussion folks.

Cheers,
Bruce and Tanya

I don't always agree with everything that is said (Or perhaps the WAY it is said) on this forum by certain people, but in this case, I think some very important points have been made.

I am going to try to tread lightly:

Northern hybridizers have to be honest with themselves and their customers as we have a different set of circumstances here. This requires that seedlings NOT be selected in the greenhouse for further evaluation. This requires that plants be planted outside as seedlings and grown in real world soil and real world weather conditions. Coddling them and then just
trying them outside "for a year or two" does not cut it, IMHO.

Buying "northern hardy" daylilies requires a careful study of the parents used in said breeding program. I have literally raised my eyebrows at the use of some of the plants in highly-touted "northern hardy" programs that have been extremely poor performers or died out here in my zone 5. Futhermore, it is known and has been discussed on various forums that these much-used parent plants are poor cold climate performers. Of course, this wouldn't be noted if said daylily was growing and blooming and being used for hybridizing in a greenhouse.

Wade, Did you buy directly from Frank Smith and if so, did he explain why he refused to give you a refund or replace the plants? You said, "They were too weak to make the trip". Did they look small, or weak, or rotten, or unhealthy in any way when they arrived? Do you think they died from crown rot? Sorry for all the questions, but I am baffled. I have had well over 100 daylilies shipped to me during the last few years and none have ever died. None. I have thrown away many due to repeated rust infections, but they have not died while growing in my garden. Granted, I'm not buying the newer CV's, but I would still be very upset if any of my purchases had failed to live...especially if they had died within a month!

And I'm curious why you bought Wedding Gown and Priceless in the first place? They look beautiful in pics, but I thought you had decided to stop hybridizing?

Also, you said, "Now they apparently are trying to make them stronger by fooling them into thinking they are being attacked by bacteria and forcing them to fight back. There is nothing natural about that." Will you elaborate a little? I don't know what you are talking about, but it sounds interesting.
Kathy

I have only been gathering daylilies for a couple of years or so, & have gotten enough now that the frenzy has eased a bit. I plan to now buy only daylilies that I have researched a bit first for bloom & hardiness. Most of my daylilies have come from trades, but I have made a few purchases & afterwards asked on this forum how I did, only to find out that a couple I purchased may be a bit delicate. Wish I had asked first, these weren't by any means $100 daylilies. I can't afford those, so what I spend should be focussed on what works best for me. That is why I love this place, so much better to learn from people who have personally grown them. I think I have some lovely daylilies, but if you are talking this year's intros-98% of mine are from the 90's or earlier. I think they are cutting edge, that's all that counts :)

"Dormant breeders are forced to use southern genes" writes Wade.

Not really... there's a good number of hardy dormants that carry characteristics to build a strain of daylilies on. Emphasize hardy.. not all dormants are completely hardy. More of these are appearing all the time. And what some call a dormant isnt. Plant habit is routinely listed as Sev by southern growers....the reality shows many, many Evs.

One of the most demanding..if not the most demanding circumstance for a northern daylily to be subjected to is the freeze/thaw cycle of a mid winter warm up. Daylily beds typically are covered in standing water.. only to see this water froze hard during the night. The tough northern hardy plants survive and thrive.. the lesser bred daylily does not. Usually the inferior northern plant.. if it comes back.. grows off the edge of the crown..often in numerous weak fans and usually does not bloom. It takes the growing season for this type to regroup. Some maintain this type of plant is hardy... which seemingly is a huge stretch to label them a hardy daylily.

Hence we see now the raised growing bed as considered normal garden culture. Now days the plants often are evaluated on a hillside.. usually south facing to capture all the solar gain possible.. any melt water draining off and preventing a real test of plant toughness via overnight hard freezes. If your not testing your northern plants against the real world conditions of northern growth scenarios... how can they be labeled northern hardy?

I don't know if Karol Emmerich hybridizes in the greenhouse or not but its true that she grows her plants for sale in the greenhouse. She very plainly states so on her website as because of her climate outside grown plants would not be ready to ship until mid summer.

However, keep reading and you will see that she plants all her seedlings outdoors and they stay that way until the very end of the selection process were she needs to grow some for sales. Seedlings surviving multiple winters in zone 4 should be hardy enough. Certainly hardy enough for me. The fact that the final fans of the daylilies that get shipped for sale are greenhouse grown are irrelevant.

Sometimes when I say things I make a jump straight to a point and technically my words are not totally accurate. That is the case with "dormant breeders are forced...". Please forgive me.

The idea that we are "forced" was based on getting quick results. In order to be competitive in the fancy department (which I feel dominates the market for hybridizers), we need results. Even with two fancy parents we have to have a good quantity of seeds to feel confident that we are going to have something worthwhile (which means at least as god as the parents).

If we don't use southern genes, we are reducing the odds. You can each determine on your own how valid that statement is and what the odds are. I think anyone who blooms thousands of seedlings knows all about how hard it is to make progress.

But, it is true that we are not "forced". Sorry for the leap.

When I ordered from Frank Smith I was devoted to begin hybridizing again. I have several hundred seedlings growing in my blue program and green edge program. I actually did not order P and WG for those programs, but for crossing with my vast collection of fancies so I could sell some seeds and bloom some of the seedlings. That was just for my own personal enjoyment.

Wedding Gown was three tiny fans cut off of a clump. Priceless was a larger doublefan with a huge cut on both sides. I guess I could call it rot, but WG never did anything but die. P did put out a few hair roots and struggled, but died two weeks later.

I was STUPID to take Fall delivery, but with the over-selling that they do, I was afraid I would not get my plants if I wanted Spring delivery. If I were to speculate, the plants were pushed to increase and probably bloomed and bloomed, and no telling what strange chemicals they were used to. I think they were just too weak to come to Texas.

All we can do as buyers (victims) is speculate as to why they rot/die. I have repeatedly mentioned throughout the years that I have spoken to a few elites and they privately admitted to the scams. I just never would tell the names.

I will say that Pat _______, the resident botanist columnist for the journal ten years ago told me that a large Florida hybridizer paid for a scientific rot study and found that nematodes were the primary cause, and that there was little we could do in the Gulf state areas. She said the other pathogens which are secondary infections caused the rot, but after the nematodes started it. At that time, it was forbidden to ship plants if you have nematodes. So you can see why it was all secret.

I contacted Frank Smith and was told it would be 2009 before they would replace the plants. I could see how they operate by their attitude and yes, if I harass them reelentlessly maybe I could get something. I just don't want any plants. I am done with daylilies. I will be selling some, and sending the best ones to a good friend of mine who is a northern hybridizer.

I have always hoped that my efforts would wake up the daylily world, and even if that is not going to happen, at least some people will have heard the truth. I made the decision to flat out hold people accountable, no matter what the cost. Making enemies is part of the equation, and I knew I would be knocked down a few times.

I have always said that I am not the right one to solve the problem, but I feel like my role is to do what I can, which is to plant a seed so that it may grow. It is up to others to make it grow or kill the seed.

My life, as judged by others, is a series of failures. The reality is that the bigger my failure, the bigger my success is. I have lost so many battles that winning is not the goal. Personal gain is not an option. I just made the decision to do something that had no chance of success. I'm not a stubborn person, so it does take effort, and I'm about done fighting the lost causes.

So, it won't be long...you probably have no desire to celebrate my departure (since I am insignificant), but you will again be able to enjoy your flowers without intrusion.

I forgot. I can't remember the name of the product (Kphyte??) that fools plants into thinking they are being attacked. It is in a recent post here somehwere.

It is just another manmade attempt to ruin the world. A temporary fix (maybe) for the user, but may well make plants weaker for shipment. Who knows if it makes them incompatible with other climates or chemicals we may be using to try to keep the evergreens alive.

I have great respect for the successful hybridizers. Just because I believe in truth does not mean I have hate or contempt in my heart. I just try to defend the daylily and fellow victims. Like me, many have given up on daylilies or lost the passion due to scams and lies. It certainly is foolish to sacrfice success in order to solve a problem. Much easier for a rebel like me.

Wade, I see. So, Frank Smith offered to replace the plants. You did not make this clear initially. In fact, I was under the impression that you had been totally ripped off. I do remember the posts about K-phite, now that you have jogged my memory. But to describe K-phite as "another manmade attempt to ruin the world" is....well, lets just say it's a bit extreme. Contrary to what you might think, I'm not trying to discredit you. I often find your posts interesting and I believe you have some valid points. But why do you make me wade through all the BS and half-truths? You don't make me angry...you make me tired.
Kathy

I said, Frank Smith was no help at all. No BS, or half-truth. How does sending me plants in 2009 help? I don't see that as any offer at all. Just a convenient way to not do anything. When I sold seeds a few months ago, I sent $100 worth of seeds to Australia and customs there destroyed the seeds. The LA, and the customer did not hold me responsible, but the buyer was happy to get their money back. Like I said, no excuses.

I understand being tired. To balance that statement, I always respond to any question, no matter what it is. I try to do my best, and that is much more than most of what I see.

As far as the "manmade attempt", it is extreme. It is a concept. What else do I have to offer?

I felt threatened two or three times on this forum. Only once in the last year. I just stick to my guns, and even if I had allies, I would turn away from them...as I have shown. I refuse to take anyone down with me.

Being understood, appreciated, or respected are things I gave up when I stood up to organized crime (which is not a stretch). Once you have Feds at your door, and dozens of lawsuits, bankruptcy, and criminal attacks by the USPS administrators in Washington because they cannot challenge your integrity...well, you realize that justice is only available on a small scale unless you are prepared to sacrifice your personal integrity (or have lots of money). I had a legitimate 10 million dollar lawsuit, but business law is pay as you go and I didn't have $300k to burn.

Try being officially labeled a terrorist threat by the government because that is the only way they can justify not doing business with you since the books show I was saving them millions each year, eliminating USPS driver complaints and back injuries, and exposing the monopoly that was in plain sight. Having to be escorted by guards on USPS facilities while making deliveries when I had been doing that already for five years.

I have my style, and I am not looking for kind words. Just be glad that there is only one of me.

"Certainly hardy enough for me" writes NY Rita.

z6b/7a LI NY is your zone listing. Far.. far from anything z4.

"The fact that the final fans of the daylilies that get shipped for sale are greenhouse grown are irrelevant" again NY Rita.

Well if you lived and grew the daylily in actual z4 conditions your observations might have merit. As such now they do not.

The greenhouse grown daylily tends to be full of water and fertilizer.. numbers are the only goal. Quite often this type of plant takes a full season just to recover under normal garden conditions. Seldom do they bloom in yr one.. unless one provides the same environment from which they came.

How large is your greenhouse Rita?

Simplton,
I always get good plants from Frank Smith.
Frank Smith has relayed a message thru me to tell you to email him. He said he is totally unaware of your situation.
his email is : orchidfrank@aol.com

Hope this helps!

northerndaylily - All I can tell you about Karol Emmerich and her daylilies is that I asked about favorite Emmerich on the AHS e-mail robin. I recieved many, many replies, some on the robin and much more personally. They were from different areas of the country, many much colder than here. All of them highly recommended Karols daylilies for beauty, hardiness, increase and most said they bloomed the same year as they were planted (the others didn't mention it so that doesn't mean that they did not bloom).

I don't know Karol and only e-mailed her when I was placing my order. I can only go by my reaction to the questions I asked her (which was very positive) and the recommendation of people who answered me. Yes, you are correct in that my zone is far warmer at 6/7 than the zone 4 the daylilies are shipped from but how they are going to do in my garden is what I am concerned about.

One issue I'm seeing here is the expectation that one plant will do equally well in all parts of the country. I may be wrong, but I don't think we have the same standards for other plants. Certain roses are known to be tender, and I'd be foolish to try to grow them in my Pennsylvania garden. Similarly, there are many, many daffodils that must have winter cold to flower. Southern daffodil lovers must choose other varieties. I can grow many rhododendruns, but there are gorgeous rhodies that are just too tender for my zone.

and on and on....yet we seem to expect all daylilies to do fine in Minnesota and in Florida, in my humid Mid-Atlantic garden with its clay soil and winter or spring freeze/thaws, and in the Mediterranean gardens of southern California.

Is that a valid expectation?

Wade, I got Wedding Gown from Frank Smith this fall. I got three fans instead of two, they were nice size, healthy, and are doing very well. I'm sorry yours did not make it. Your frustration is palpable.

Hybridizing is a frustrating endeavor, and Florida babies are a gamble. I planted Wedding Gown well away from my main beds to watch it for rust--so far, so good, but I'll give it a couple of years in splendid isolation before I feel 'safe' with it. I'm really paranoid about rust! I don't think my zone gets cold enough to freeze it out consistantly.

Frank Smith seemed kind to me, as he and his staff exchanged emails with me. He and his assistant were patient with my rust questions and even offered to include a bottle of what they use for it if I couldn't find it here--just in case. I found other stuff so I didn't need theirs, but they did offer.

I imagine he is all sold out of Wedding Gown, although it does seem like he should keep some back for the inevitable deaths that need replacement. Perhaps I should go put some extra compost around mine!

Simplton wrote: Daylilies so obviously are being improved in appearance, and destroyed for the long term.

I'm new to daylilies and I was wondering how they are destroyed. Does the plant just die after a couple years or so?
I would think if people are buying $100-$300 crummy plants they would soon wise up and the market would dry up - I would hope not too many people would have that kind of dough to throw out the window!!! I certainly don't.
I'm thinking about getting Shores of Time in a couple years, but is this one of the "doomed" southern fancies he's talking about? So far I've only purchased older $5-$10 daylilies and have had no problems yet. Well, except Fairy Tale Pink.

The modern daylily is weak due to irresponsible breeding. The performance of weak plants varies by regions and the different degress of stress in those regions. Virginia is not a stressful area, and you should have little to no problems.

Well, that's a relief to hear!
Sorry you lost your 2 daylilies - I'm sure it was painful. Sue

Well, thanks to our garden spider in NC, I will getting replacements in the Spring. Frank Smith was very, very nice and quite generous to take the loss. I feel that the blame falls on me because I knew better than to take Fall delivery. All I had to do was ask for Spring delivery, which is my normal procedure.

I have never ordered Fall intro's before, and I guess I went braindead. How difficult it must be to satisfy all of your customers when you have no control once they are shipped. It is a very emotional experience to watch plants die, and I think it is smart to wait a few days to settle down and be rational before contacting the seller. All I had to do was try again and go directly to the boss.

Sue....I have dl's from the oldest cultivars up to the newest ones...and have very few problems with any of them. Oh sure, occasionally I lose one to rot, but I've been growing dl's for more than 10 years now, and could count on one hand, how many I've lost. I find for the most part, dl's are still very hardy and do well with little attention. Even the "weaker" (as some say) new ones. In fact some of the newer ones I've purchased over the past few years are out performing the older cv's by leaps and bounds. I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with everything said on this thread about hybridizers breeding "weak" plants. I think, as in all perennials, there are some, but the majority are good, strong growers that perform well for me in my zone 8 garden. Rust, yes, I have had it, and I do spray for it a couple of times during the season. No biggy in my book. Those of you who grow roses, certainly spray them and give them the care needed to keep them looking good, right? What's the big difference in doing the same thing for your dl's? In my experience, rust has not killed any of my dl's, just makes them look ratty for a time. I'll cut the offending dl back and give it a good spraying, and in no time, it's up and growing like gang busters again.
There are always going to be drawbacks to growing most anything. There always has been...look at cotton, the boll weevil nearly destroyed that industry, but it bounced back with a vengeance.
Sometimes, I think things get blown out of proportion and it scares folks about growing dl's. I think that if you love dl's and you want to grow them then you'll do whatever it takes to do so, in what ever zone you live in. I grow them for my enjoyment, just as I do the rest of the plants in my garden. I also grow camellias, which I have to spray with fungicide to prevent black spot on the foliage. Does that mean I'm going to chop down all my camellias...not a chance. So, neither will I dig up all my dl's and toss them out, just because some have a problem every now and then.
I'm going out on a limb here, but, I think God put the flowers on the earth for our enjoyment, not to worry and fret over. He wanted us to tend them sure, but not lose sleep over them or worry ourselves sick about them. Geez...just grow the dl's you want, and if one doesn't make it, replace it with another one.
Well, I've been reading this thread for days, and never intended to chime in, but, I felt like what I had to say, might benefit someone else. I'm not trying to start an argument or step on anybody's toes, just wanted to share my opinions and experiences with you.
Have a glorious day,
Jan

NY Rita I agree buying daylilies from the northern growers is a better option than southern growers. And your likewise correct that what and who we choose for plant purchases is dependent on our climates and tastes.

May I ask again.. how large is your greenhouse?

I don't have a greenhouse. I won't employ daylily genetics selected from greenhouse stock. I select my base stock from the hardiest genes that prove out in my climate. And that is just my own route... z4 requires this.

Truth be told.. it's very easy to find people to agree with what you want to hear. There's no gain in relating one's own negative experiences.. with plants for instance. The truth teller in that scenario will only receive a litany of
testimony from the affirmative side.. and most do not care to deal with that. This affect primarily due to the fact those who've opened their checkbooks want to rationalize their spending. A feel good moment.. nothing really wrong with that. I hope they work out for you.

Yet.. the truth is out there. It does require some effort to find it.

Defining northern hardy is like defining the Midwest. Term meaning general IMO.

Last spring I asked for feedback on Awesome Blossom (evergreen) and two people responded one from Canada (not sure of zone) and the other from Zone 4 PA? that they had good luck with it. Then asked a greenhouse owner about a half hour away who raises all his dl's in pots in the ground, and none of his AB survived last winter.

The freeze-thaw comment is so very true and now snow is late in season so frost goes deep.

All mine are in the ground and I use a light grass/leaf mulch with good luck so far. Just because you use some mulch rather than the torture test of no mulch doesn't make your dl's non-hardy. Mulching is traditional :)

I'd love to see more growers/hybridizers get started up north (which is Dakotas, MN, WI to me) growing dormants using the older proven bloodlines and testing the new ones.

How do Canadian growers define northern hardy?

We all enjoy what we do with our daylilies. That's a definition we probably all agree on :)

Wade (or anyone else that knows)- I am also new to DL, so I was hoping that you could explain why evergreens are weakening the gene pool/why they are weaker than dormants (Scientifically but in laymans terms hopefully)? In addition, I was hoping for a little more clarification on Kphyte. My understanding from the posts here was that Kphyte was a fungicide. I understand the argument that it is a man made thing introduced to help weak plants survive what may be a disease helped along my man by genetically engineering weak plants... but I don't understand how a fungicide can work to make a plant think it is under attack by bacteria. Is Kphyte not a fungicide? Does Kphyte kill the nematodes?

PS. I received "Mrs. John Cooper" and it died promptly of rot (not offered to be replaced by the seller) when the others I bought were treated the same and planted in the same way in the same place. I agree is very emotional and hard to watch. It is EV. So, after this post, I started looking at the few I have had rot out on me. Quite surprising results: Palace Garden Beauty (EV), Royal Harmony (EV), Riders of the Storm (SEV), Best Kept Secret (EV). That is not to say that I don't have some EV's that are doing well, I do - Jerry Nettles, Mildred Mitchell, Lavender Fantasia, Crystal Sea, Gillian, West Coast Blues, For Your Eyes Only, Clothed in Glory, Red Eyed Fantasy seem to be doing well. But I think it is interesting that ALL the rot cases came from EV's (one SEV - but my understanding is that SEV is pretty subjective).

The basics of hybridizing were established long ago, and include setting goals, inbreeding and outcrossing, culling, and the selection process. Inbreeding leads to the saturation of genes that improve certain traits through the selection process. Long term inbreeding weakens the plant, and a lack of proper culling keeps the weakness intact.

The natural process is to let weak plants die. When we control the natural pathogens, growing conditions, and help the plants survive, we are replacing nature with man. And if a particular region dominates breeding, then we again control nature.

If we want quick results, and with the many decades of improper breeding those results are available to us, then we turn our backs on the natural process and use our imaginations to control nature any way we can. In the old days, no matter how hard you tried, improvements in daylilies were slow to evolve. Now they occur each season.

Now, with the weakness bred in, restoring a natural process requires extreme outcrossing and culling, with no inbreeding or controlling of pathogens. This is not done in even the slightest fashion.

With tropical zones dominating the market, increase the negatives exponentially. The plants go from seed to bloom way too fast, and then we push them with fertilizers and controlled envirinments. Even in these tropical zones, greenhouses are used.

It is all man-made with no natural processes. This is the quickie tutorial.

northerndaylily - I am not trying to get everyone to buy from those I have bought from. Those were my choices and I mention them because I think they would be good choices for others to check out also. If certain hybridizers are not what you or anyone else is looking for, fine by me.

NY Rita:

The greenhouse.. please. How large is yours?

I just have GH envy....:).

There's not a thing wrong touting the choices one makes for plants.. by anyone. Yet there's some misconceptions as to overall hardiness and/or fitness for far northern climates .. just because a grower is located in that zone. A greenhouse far north is around the equivalent of a z7-8 climate all told.. if not higher.. depending on management. Selecting seedling and plants from that greenhouse environment means nothing towards northern hybridizing.

The message is simple: Buyer Beware.

You are missing the point. While the actual fans of the daylilies to be shipped are grown in Karols greenhouse, the daylilies SELECTED for introduction come from all the seedlings grown outside thru all the cold winters and climate. Read her website.

If you choose not to believe thats how she does it, thats your right. Maybe you are saying that once the seedlings, which have flurished thru the winters for multiple years are taken into the greenhouse and grown, that they somehow loose northern hardyness. If so I disagree. Maybe even the field grown ones are not northern hardy enough for you, in which case we are compairing apples and oranges because I am sure they will be northern hardy enough for me.

My daylilies need to be great garden plants and I am sure that is what I am getting. I wouldn't even be interested in owning a greenhouse so I am sure you know full well that I don't have one. I also don't need you to agree with me. Different opinions are just fine and my point was that I felt that Karrol Emmerich's intros were going to do very well in my garden.

"Wade (or anyone else that knows)- I am also new to DL, so I was hoping that you could explain why evergreens are weakening the gene pool/why they are weaker than dormants?" asks fairysoapgirl.

Weaker than being the operative phase... what has been discovered is the daylilies of today share a goodly percentage of the same genes. As the Ev plant habit is mostly employed in hybridizing today, this effect is being intensified on the Ev side. When plants are only selected on face/bloom characters and plant habit is neglected.. resistance to disease isnt selected for.. the plant suffers. This is not due just to inbreeding... in the end its a selection problem in originas again the plant habit isnt often being considered. Then even while two plants used in a cross do not appear closely related by looking back a generation or two.... bringing the whole lineage up from 5-7 generations tells the complete story. In many cases the plants come from the same genes.. via different paths.

To the credit of some southern growers using primarily Ev genes, a few are selecting against rust... doing no preventative spraying and choosing their mates from stock not affected with or showing little rust sign. And in all fairness not all southern growers neglect plant habit. Again ..selection is the key element. One can easily select quality plant habit from Evs.. as any other growth habit.

Yes theres definitely some dogs out there from prominent programs. Rotters.. poor growers.. yet to single just one out here isnt fair. To share ones experiences with such plants is valuable.. so long as the complete set of circumstances via the event are in view. Plants easily are victim to poor culture... can encounter excess high heat via shipping.. and problems can arise not really the fault of the shipper or the plants genetics. Gather the facts first.

The dormant habit is not free from weaker genes.. by any means. A few of the older varieties of the Reckamp strain show very poor growth vigor, frequent bud dropping and in general arent good garden plants. In recent years Roy Klehm has largely taken over that strain and dealt successfully with some of these minor issues. Some of his newer plants are excellent.

I share NY Ritas enthusiasm for the cutting edge true northern hybridized daylily. The fact is most of the cutting edge feature from points south does not make the trip far north.. either in genetic transmission to hardier stock.. or show these characters when grown in our relative cold compared to their origin warmth. When someone objectively adds the net gain from each generation grown north.. or south for that matter... very few plants are worth the time as parents.

So for clarification, EV's are not necessarily weaker plants, they have just been more inbred and/or less selectively culled due to the fact that they are the plants that are being mostly used with which to hybridize? If that is the case, isn't it unfair to quantify EV's as weaker plants, since Dormants could be susceptible to exactly the same treatment thus weakening their genetics as well?

I am not singling any plants out, I just want others to know about my personal experiences.

Generally speaking, the older EV intros are stronger than the newer ones, for the reasons you stated. Some people are crossing newer with older, which may be better than newer X newer, but when you do that I would estimate that you will need 100 times more seedlings and still possibly not get anything fancier than the parents. You may get results close to the same as the parents, as far as fancy goes.

But in crossing newer x newer, not only do you get many more seedlings similar to the parents, you have the chance of something fancier than either parent. That is the problem. Not much incentive to have ethical systems.

So, ethical breeding is long term, as gauged by results...which is why hybridizers go for the quick results. Maybe you can see why we have such a problem, and why people speak out...and why in my opinion, the situation is hopeless, and it is up to dormant breeders to take over. But, it will probably end up the same.

It is a simple, yet complicated matter. Truth is our only chance. The more knowledge that is readily available to new hybridizers, the better off we are. How many are up to the task of making progress, which may not even be a reasonable option. Who wants to invest so much on a long shot?

The next Michael Moore movie may be: Daylily Future/Mission Impossible.

Ok Wade... you are scaring me now! I went to bed last night, and as always, ponder the days thoughts, dealings, philosophies etc... AND I THOUGHT... NEXT MICHAEL MOORE MOVIE! Except then I thought, DL genetics probably don't way in as heavy as Medical Care, violence in America, our Country's leadership (or lack thereof),or outsourcing. He may not be interested. I do have to admit to just watching Sicko, but still - scary.

I hear your pain and can see from this post alone that people can get a little defensive/offensive about this subject. I try to stay as scientific as possible and gather as much information as possible because only an educated mind can make the right decisions. I am no hybridizer by a long shot, but I think straightforward, honest conversations are important. I also think to achieve results with words it is important to **try** to leave emotion off the table. I know I can't think straight when I am heated up, and I can get touchy when I feel someone is attacking me personally. Debate is great, attacking character and personal choice is a whole other ballgame. Besides, words are so hard to interpret when just written and not spoken (no eye contact, body language or tone). I have learned a ton from this post, even if at times it has made me cringe at some of the passive/aggressive language used to convey points.

My daylily story is epic. In flattering myself, I feel I am among the pioneers of change...simply because I have never given up the cause. The truth is, I have alienated the many while attempting to influence the few...and I have made no tangible progress. My communication skills are nonexistent, but my conviction is honest.

I did not begin with any original ideas or knowledge. I learned it all from reading what the real experts had to say. They were "challenged" for lack of a better word. I simply stood up for the hundreds of silent people and kept issues alive, while the vocal masses discredited me with precision. Since I had experience being labeled by powers greater than the AHS elites, I felt obligated to give my best effort.

My only realistic goal was to plant the seed about 15 years ago and make sure that it was not killed by those who think they are defending the daylily against evil. I believed that time was on my side. Truth will win in the end as long as at least one person is willing to take a beating, while those who agree just cannot afford to assume the same risk as me.

So, since I have no means to actually solve any problems, I can only be idealistic and play the part of a cartoon character. In the last two years, everything has changed. The very smart and much more effective daylily people, who recognize that truth is needed, have stepped in and taken over. They actually have the potential to save the daylily.

One of my most respected friends told me that it appears that I thrive on adversity and seem to enjoy controversy. I never considered credibility to be available, so I went too far on many occasions. Today, I am satisfied with the way things have turned out.

My mother does not like to seek truth. She wants to conform and share in the brotherhood. I know most gardeners are that way, and reject me with enthusiasm. They love daylilies and negatives are simply lies. "If you can't do anything about it, then why be a fanatical rebel?"

My answer...I am an American, whether that is good or bad. Be honest with myself and while I hold others accountable, hold myself much more accountable. Be prepared to expose my soul and have it permanently stained. Battle scars are evidence of conviction, while mistakes are evidence of my humanity. I believe in what I do, and that is enough for me.

And sometimes fairysoapgirl what you read on the internet is just BS. The sad part is when someone new to daylilies reads it, thinks it is the truth, they run away, never to return. They will never know that most daylilies can be easily grown by gardeners, be they new gardeners or very experienced gardeners. One man's repeating something, over and over and over again, does not make it the truth.

Now I'm PO'd at myself for acknowledging this thread.

Brooke

Brooke, consider that his goal is to achieve what you describe. If he is "abandoning" daylilies, he doesn't want anyone else to enoy them either! Methinks he just likes to dominate and see his rants in writing. It is BS. Woops, I feel another rant coming on.

I was not going to post to this as I thought it was going well without becoming personal.As long as Daylilies are for sale,people will buy them.They will pay what they want to pay for them.Some will live,some will die.Without an organized effort by many,nothing will change.This is America,we are all entitled to express our opinions.We are all human,and as such our opinions quickly turn personal.
Time to let this one go.

My final comment on this thread is that I want to pay tribute to what I consider my most passionate belief. The modern daylily is available to us because of Florida hybridizers. For a really long time, they established the highest degree of integrity in the business...actually raising the bar to what may be considerd perfection at this point.

Almost all Florida hybridizers were TOTALLY organic. If you are new to daylilies, you may not know the names and the stories. I used to wear out the catalogs, and the ones who added their personal comments had my complete attention.

I think the most interesting topic we can have on this forum (or any daylily forum or society for that matter)would be to name each one and share the wonderful stories. Nothing we can do can actually give them as much credit as they deserve, but if you want to promote daylilies in a positive manner from ALL perspectives, what could be better?

For those of you who have the old catalogs and journals still, or personal experiences, can we illustrate to the newcomers that although we have problems now, we also have (to me) the most potentially inspiring stories. And it was not only Florida, but many states going north up the east coast.

Truth was easily recognized, and my heroes were the ones who told the whole story. They are the givers. Ra Hansen is still on a pedestal in my mind and if I had my way, her words would be part of an AHS education program that anyone registering a cultivar must acknowledge. Dave Talbott, David Kirchoff, and Van Sellers are more who made an impression on me.

There are many lesser known names who were less influencial in the daylily world, but just as important to truth.

I wish I still had everything I have read. I guess had I true conviction, I would retrieve that information and write a book. Who knows what the future holds?

Please ,please start---I would love to read all I can on the Hybridizers not only florida but nation wide---the trend makers--the superstars---ect-

I just had the pleasure to met Mr. Kirchoff and Mr.Morss--wonderful!Passioonate breeders.

If you wait to long we loose the old breeders---it's happened to me in my quest to breed the perfect French Bulldog--it's taken me over twenty five years+++--and I am JUST starting to break through with an animal that is beautiful and fits our Standard and MINE!... thanks to many old timers that had faith in me and trusted me with their wonderful B----hes and work.
I wish I had had more info available to me to study from--
You write beautifully ,do it !---the dayliliy is going places---help it get there.

cole--nospell in mendo