Carol & Jim,

Excellent!! Now not so worried about messing up the salt/pepper ratio etc. And corrections can be made down the line.

Thanks much!! Today is the day.

jt

I continue to be PO'd (think post office) at the poor instructions. Spent all aft coarse blending the 5 lbs peppers at chop cycle in blender etc. Added the salt, added the weighting stones and they promptly sank. (like who would have thunk it!)

Will have to pour out the now salty pepper mash and refrigerate to save it.

Heading to the store for a six pack.

Reflecting... so why a need for the stones at all? Or possibly should have just chopped up the pods with a knife and added the brine. Totally screwed this one up.

SHAZBOT!

John, I too was really PO'd about the instructions. I mean the crock is kinda expensive and you would think that they could do better with their instruction booklet.

I really want to get into fermenting (all kinds of veggies) and have lost my Harsch crock pot. Before I buy a new one, I would like a good recipe book for preparing fermented foods that I can somehow translate for use in the Harsch pot. I do remember that is was well built and no smell. Just be careful not to drag it across the countertop because it can scratch it!!

Recipe book suggestions anyone??

Wouldn't any fermented recipe translate - except for the skimming part? About the only thing that seems different to me is the don't open it for the first 2 to 3 weeks part.

John,

Sorry to hear about the setback. It's not clear to me what happened. It sounds like the ground chiles were soupy even without adding brine. Is that right? I didn't expect that. Or did you add some brine? Hmm. Now that I think about it, you may have had to use brine in order to make the blender work. Maybe you can clarify this for me.

Jim

Maybe not as serious as first thought. I assume the stones are to keep the veggies under the brine? No large pieces to float to the top so maybe not a problem after all?

Didn't add any brine at all. There is plenty of moisture in peppers and about 2 1/2 lbs of what I used are the very thick fleshed C. pubescens.

Haven't added any vinegar yet either. So will proceed w/o the stones and see what happens. My basement stays a very constant 72° most of the year and drops to upper 60s in the winter so that is where the crock will stay.

Will post a few pics later today.

Wouldn't any fermented recipe translate - except for the skimming part?

mellyofthesouth,

I think so. Really hoping for no mold & I don't want to add vinegar.

These 3 lbs of peppers were fresh... I added 2 lbs of frozen:

The crock:

The mash:

On behalf of us vicarious hot sauce makers, thanks for the pics and good luck. Everything looks nice. Keep us posted.

Jim

5 days now and no sound of bubbling yet. I'm wondering when does start if the bubbles will push through the water lock? Perhaps the water in the 'moat' should be called an air lock?

Fingers crossed!

Jim, It might not even be accurate to check the level in the moat since you get some natural evaporation action there. Someone should make a glass model so we can keep an eye on the goodies, lol. I guess you would have to protect that from light. If only we living in a perfect world...

This morning I stuck my finger in the moat and burp!

Think I have a better understanding thanks to all your help as to what is going on now. If I can find a good online site to buy some Kefir will order today. Then am going to try on a smaller scale with some kind of homemade setup. Or perhaps should buy some home brewing equipment? Right now I'm thinking a quart canning jar with something to properly weight down the chopped up (not run through a blender) peppers. Perhaps a baloon stretched over the jar top for an air lock. Does the fermenting have to take place in the dark?

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jt

John,

Doesn't your supermarket have kefir in the dairy section? I'm pretty sure mine does. Or are you looking for the starter culture?

If you have a homebrew/wine shop nearby, you can get an airlock for a couple of bucks and install it in a jar lid.

Putting a paper bag over the jar when you're not observing will exclude enough light.

Jim

Jim,

There are at least two brewing shops within 30 min or less drive. So... buy a rubber stopper, cut hole into canning lid, insert stopper and then airlock into stopper?

And I was looking for the dried starter culture as thought that is what is needed.

How about this... chop up pods, insert baloon into jar, use air pump (already have a couple) to blow up baloon. Should put pressure on the pods and brine and expell air from jar. Still fuzzy about the need to weight down the peppers though. Crazy or what?

jt

John,

That sounds like a good way to install an airlock. The brew shop will have various diameters of stoppers with the correct hole size for the airlock. Or you could just epoxy the airlock to the jar lid.

The starter culture would certainly work. I think a couple of spoonfuls of kefir would work too, if it has live culture in it. The label will say if it does. I've used yogurt and buttermilk to 'infect' fresh milk.

The purpose of weighting the peppers is to keep them well submerged. If they are at or above the surface of the brine, they are very susceptible to infection by yeasts or molds (the floating scum which you are supposed to skim off). I think the balloon would make too tight a seal. It wouldn't let gas escape easily. Maybe a plastic bag of the approriate size, partially filled with brine would do the trick. That's what most people have been using in their crocks. For pressing cheese, I cut disks from a polyethylene cutting board (easily machined with woodworking tools) to fit a stainless steel container which I perforated. My next pickling/kraut set-up will probably use a disk like those with a few holes drilled in it to allow passage of gas and air. If I use a straight sided crock, a circle will work. If it is a large jar (I have a couple of really big ones), the disk will need to be cut in half to get it through the neck of the jar.

Your friend the tinkerer,

Jim

Jim,

I love your ideas! And I have several plastic cutting boards that could be used in place of the 'stones'. Unfortunately the widemouth quart jars that I bought were Ball brand and not actually round. Just poured some plaster of paris into one for a template. Am thinking to cut the 'stones' out of ceramic tile even though the plastic bag with brine would work.

Come Tuesday hope to find some freeze-dried Kefir starter locally.

Your friend the idiot troll,

jt

Most home brewing suppliers sell a 5gal bucket with a tight fitting lid with the airlock already installed.

I would think that this would make a great fermenter. JUst use a large plate and brine bag to weight down the kraut.

> Most home brewing suppliers sell a 5gal bucket...

Smokey,

They do indeed. Visited my first specialty shop today and purchased several airlocks and a couple sizes rubber stoppers. Still in the experimentation stage here and am going to ferment small amts of hot peppers in quart jars using Kefir starter for one batch and regular brine method for the second to compare. The Kefir starter has been ordered and hope to have by next Monday or so.

Installed 1 stopper and airlock into wide-mouth lid using Dremel tool. Didn't take long. Also in the picture are ceramic floor tiles and plaster cast of bottom inside 1 quart canning jar. Hope to make weighting stones to fit out of the tiles. Have already been warned that the tiles are extremely hard to cut and might have to abandon that idea and go to something easier. Backup plan is to use Jim's plastic cutting board suggestion.

jt

Aren't you having fun, John! Nice pics.

I have some vaque memories of cutting tile years ago when I tiled a bathroom. There are ways of cutting odd shapes and it is not as difficult as you might think because tile doesn't shatter like glass. As best I recall it involved nibbling the tile with a tool resembling a large pair of end cutters. I think the tile store loaned me all the tools. It would not be worth investing in them for a small project.

Possibly, scoring the tile with your Dremel and a cut-off wheel and then snapping the tile with pliers would work. You might need a diamond cut-off wheel. I find them very useful.

You have more control with the polyethylene cutting board, which cuts easily with a scroll saw, jig saw, coping saw or band saw.

Jim

Very interesting discussion. I really like the idea of scribing a polyethylene cutting board.

Just a question, but wouldn't the tile be absorbent? Is that an issue with fermenting?

Carol

John,

I'd worry that the plaster of paris and tile would absorb the fermenting brine, and would be impossible to fully clean later. This could especially be a problem if your brine develops any scum or mold, which could "infect" your weight.

Consider putting them in a food-safe plastic bag first, or simply use a brine bag.

Leigh

Thanks for the comments!

The plaster of paris is strictly for a template. Oddly enough I chose ceramic tile because thought it would be similar to the crock stoneware which is supposedly mold resistant because doesn't absorb much. Will scrap the tile idea for now.

I do not want mold period.

Will work on making cutting board weights today.

Thanks for the tips!

jt

Ended up using glass beads for the weights instead of the tile or plastic cutting board.

Pods to ferment. All but 3 are C. chinense. 2 of the 3 are Biker Billy jals and the long brown is a Pasilla Bajio. A little over 1 lb sliced with stems removed.

Sliced pods in quart jars: Abt 1/2 lb ea.

Compacted, 1/2 teaspoon Kefir (lacto-bacteria) added to one, salted, brine added (not enough juice) and weight added:

Salt, starter & glass weights. The glass 'beads' were purchased in the floral dept at Hobby Lobby at 2 lbs for $1.98. Used abt 3/4 lb ea jar. Used tulle (nylon) for the bags to hold them. 77¢ square yard at Wally World.

Ended up adding 1 teaspoon salt and 4 liquid oz brine (boiled 15 gm salt/1 liter distilled water ratio) to each. And 1/2 teaspoon Kefir starter to one jar. If had to do over would have skipped the initial 1 teaspoon salt each and gone with the brine solution only. Still might not end up too salty as will be able to pour off the liquid when finished because the pods were not a mash, but sliced.

Idea is to compare the fermented salt only with the Kefir and salt method.

Nice looking setup. The pics are great! Thanks for showing us.

Jim

Day 16 for the pepper mash in the fermenting crock. Instructions are to wait at least 2 weeks before taking a peek. I'm going to wait a few more days just to be sure. Really hoping there will be no mold, but am prepared to remove mold and spray with 5% acid vinegar if necessary. Still have a small stash of 19% acid vinegar if need be. While googling about mold control came across grapefruit seed extract. Tasteless, odorless and supposedly very effective diluted in distilled water. Couldn't find locally and is pricey online so will order only if absolutely necessary.

3 days now for the Kefir/no Kefir experiment. No bubbles yet. Added something to trap the gas so can better compare the two.

Not at all sure if enough gas to measure will be produced with only 1/2 lb pods, but time will tell.

I'm a little confused: was the grapefruit peel extract specifically to prevent mold in fermenting vegetables?

Leigh

Leigh,

No. Not mixed in with the fermenting veggies, but for mold on the surface. See below....

jt

Here is a link that might be useful: mold control

John,

I'm still a little confused. Are you thinking about spraying it on the surface of your fermenting peppers? I'd be reluctant to use anything like that around them--it may affect the fermentation process.

I've not found mold to be that common--I've only had it once on sauerkraut, and just skimmed it off, along with the top layer of kraut. I've had yeast on there a time or two (it's white), and do the same thing. I use brine bags to seal the surface (still wishing for a Harsh crock), so I'm sure your Harsh crock will do a much better job of excluding the air that can introduce molds and yeasts. Before resorting to other means, try skimming first.

As for cleaning afterwards, your crock should be very easy to clean. Soap and water should do it, but if you're worried about any mold residue, just soak it in a 10% bleach solution, then wash well.

Leigh

> Are you thinking about spraying it on the surface of your fermenting peppers?

Leigh,

Only if there is mold when I take a peek. I'm really hopeful that there won't be any. I was very careful to keep everything clean, but let's face it, with 1/3 gal volume air to start with there is a fairly good possibility of containing mold spores in my rather humid area.

I soaked the peppers in a vegetable wash (Fit) before removing stems and slicing. However, habs are well known to be often contaminated on the inside because of insects and the naturally thin walls. Soaking the sliced and stemed pods in vinegar and then rinsing might have been a good precaution. Didn't do that so am preparing for the worst.

This picture of fresh orange habs is unfortunately all too common:

Wish me luck!

jt

Crock instructions were to wait at least two weeks before taking a peek. I waited 19 days and wish had looked after only two weeks.

Mold. Everything white or cloudy looking is mold. Easy to scoop out as those large cloudy areas clung together and lifted up intact. Surprisingly, the odor wasn't at all bad and smelled like pepper mash.

Very disappointed. Thought everything was scrupulously clean. Also thought the crock material was supposed to be resistant to mold because was non-porous. You can see patches of mold on sides near the mash and also on upper rim area.

Made an aprox 7% acid vinegar solution and after removing as much mold as possible wiped down the insides and rim of crock. Then sprayed all the inside crock surface and sprayed enough vinegar to form a thin layer on top of the mash.

The picture is click-able if you want slightly larger:

I'll be checking things again in about a week.

jt

Just a quick update on my Kefir/no Kefir culture experiment.

The Kefir jar has been producing gas for several days now & there is no indication of the other jar producing gas yet. I waited until there was more than enough visible evidence in the one baloon to take the picture.

A very small bit of mold is growing in one corner of the Kafir jar at the surface. Instead of spraying with vinegar today am going to wait for delivery of the grapefood seed extract which I expect on Wednesday.

jt

Crock update...

7 days after removing mold and there is no sign of mold in the crock whatsoever now. Which to me means that the vinegar spray worked. This time I resprayed all the exposed crock and surface of fermenting pods with a mixture of 25 drops of GSE (grapefruit seed extract) per 8 oz distilled water before putting the lid back on. The water trough will be filled with the GSE/water mixture.

Pleasant peppery odor. Will wait at least 2-3 weeks before checking again.

What I had thought to be mold in the Kefir jar of the Kefir/no Kefir quart jar w/airlock experiment had actually diminished in size and was rather crusty with brownish tint compared to the white fluffy appearance of 4 days ago. Sprayed with the GSE mix anyways.

A new Kefir experiment in the works. Hope to finish today. A new idea that I think might work out.

Melly,

I've since learned that what I thought was mold in the crock is actually a yeast. If you will email me I'll give you better instructions for your crock.

Click here to email me

JohnT

This is a fantastic thread and very informative. I have a large old pickle crock I got from my grandpa's basement. I was planning to try brining pickles but since I love hot sauce now I want to try this instead. I have heard previously of using a plastic bag filled with brine to weigh down the vegetable mass and would probably use that as my weight source. I wouldn't have an airlock though (or a waterlock), would this be a problem? Is this the same process of "lactic acid fermentation" that I read about in the chili forums?
kendra

"I have heard previously of using a plastic bag filled with brine to weigh down the vegetable mass and would probably use that as my weight source."

Consider using more than one bag if necessary to seal your large crock. I haven't done that, but it seems as if it would work to have a few bags butting against each other. Use heavy duty bags so you don't get accidental punctures in handling them.

"Is this the same process of "lactic acid fermentation" that I read about in the chili forums?"

Yes, it is. It's the same process as making saurkraut, using chiles instead of cabbage.

"I wouldn't have an airlock though (or a waterlock), would this be a problem?"

An airlock isn't used by most kraut makers. You should keep the crock well covered to keep out dirt. You need to check periodically to see if its necessary to remove scum (floating yeast) and to be sure there is still enough liquid. Using a Harsch crock or other airlock arrangement keeps dirt out and stops evaporation, which greatly simplfies your work. I haven't figured out the issues re the roles of oxygen and carbon dioxide in this process.

Jim

Jim,

Check your email. 'We' are very much on the way to 'solving' fermentation. 2 of 3 books that I ordered on subject have arrived. One (unfortunately) doesn't seem to be one I would recommend even though am obviously not an expert on the subject.

I hope to start fermenting carrots and in a separate jar string beans tomorrow. And you can bet hot peppers will be involved.

More on subject to follow...

jt

Some Eastern Europeans prefer a measure of air access because they believe the yeasts benefit the flavor of sauerkraut, pickles, etc..

I just wanted to mention that Ziploc XXL bags, the kind with a built-in handle, and usually found with vacuum-cleaner bags, hangers for clothing, etc. are food-safe, even though they aren't specifically marketed for food. They come in a box of 4, I think, and are under $6.00.

They stand up by themselves and are a heavy-duty plastic, so they're great for filling larger crocks and also for brining turkeys, etc.

Carol

Store-bought kefir will have the lacto bacteria, but usually not the grains (one of the things that distinguish kefir from yogurt). I just got some kefir grains from a friend today, and I will be glad to mail some off once they start multiplying. If you click on "my page" you can email me from this site.

Best wishes to your pepper sauce John, this is really neat to follow.

Melissa

Using new method with just plain old quart canning jars. No airlock, balloon etc now. Did baby carrots and onions on Monday & yesterday did string beans.
Found 1 gal wide mouth jars at Sam's Club for only $3.28 ea. And durned if they didn't come with Kosher whole dill pickles in them! Those jars will be for making sauerkraut.

Awaiting order of juniper berries etc from Penzeys and a small refrigerator from Sam's. Both could be here today. The fridge I thought necessary for the secondary stage of fermenting where temps of 46-50°F is recommended.

More to follow as I learn more, get more books etc. And I always take pictures to go with my sometimes terrible notes. Getting better at the notes.

Garlic, whole radishes and more peppers will get done today and tomorrow I hope.

I'm going to continue to buy freeze-dried kefir starter just to be sure things are consistent. STC as we used to say in the army.... subject to change.

jt

Here is a link that might be useful: Kefir making

Ooops.... forgot one link

Here is a link that might be useful: More kefir

Opened the crock for the final time yesterday 40 days after last peek. Small kahm yeast patches had formed. Aroma wasn't bad, but wasn't great either. pH of 4.46 acidity. Technically safe, but not something I would bottle up without processing. Taste was so-so. The capsaicin heat had lessened quite a bit. I decided to add to the compost pit. A shame to waste 5 lbs of peppers, but such is life.

Considering that I did so many things wrong it was actually much better than expected. Learned quite a bit since that first trial of over two months ago. The next use for the crock will be sauerkraut as pretty sure have the temps and times for that down pat.

Working on a temp controlled cabinet as we speak and will be used in future trials. Next large batch of peppers will be in the 1 & 2 gal Ball jars.

jt

This thread was a great read John. I hope you'll keep us posted if your trials continue.

-casey.

Casey,

Just in case you haven't seen yet see link below.

The sauerkraut in a quart jar is out of this world good. Seriously.

jt

Here is a link that might be useful: Lactic acid fermenting

Thanks for the link.

I'm not much of a kraut guy, but I'm very interested in hearing how your pepper mash turns out.

Just found this site--great! I recently used my Harsch crock for the first time, and started a batch of traditional sauerkraut. I've made it several times before in glass jars, and it turned out OK. Yesterday I opened it to check the progress after about 2 weeks. There was what looked like an orange scum (mold?) all over the stones, and there was brine water on top of those, My husband was brave enough to taste the kraut, and he said it was fermenting, but not fully done yet (He's still alive!). Does anyone know what this orange mold might be? I, too thought that Harsch crocks were not supposed to contain mold or scum. We tried to be very clean and follow procedures correctly when we made the kraut. Thanks for any ideas.

It really doesn't need to be connected to how clean your equipment or technique is. Spores of molds and yeast actually float through the air, and any material capable of supporting its growth is a culture medium. In this case the material you are trying to ferment. We exposed agar plates in a Waste Water microbiology class to the air and incubated them. Believe me, unless you work in a positive pressure airlock with super filtration, you will have some contamination.

So, does that mean that if there is orange mold it's still OK to eat?? I guess that's really my question.

I found this link through a google search. They're apparently very similar to Harsch crocks (though they have a slight barrel shape to them making the opening smaller than the widest part of the crock, so I like Harsch's design more ...)

Lehmans German fermenting crocks

It appears they also come with two-piece weighting stones, and have the water trough for airlock. A 10 liter crock (circa 2.65 gal) is US$86.00 (compare to about $124 for Harsch). No indication how much for shipping, but my guess is about $35 for UPS ground. They have a retail store in Kidron, Ohio. As of July 2009, they're backordered with expected resupply late August '09. Who knows though...

And one other little factoid regarding Harsch crocks, apparently the US distributor is in Connecticut (which I learned talking to cust. support for this retailer http://www.canningpantry.com/sauerkraut-crocks.html ), so if you're in the Northeast, shipping time should be shorter (they're drop-shipped at least from this seller).

cheers,
-wayne

The 5 liter looks like a Boston baked bean pot.

Was thinking of buying the smallest pot, a little over a gallon size. Do you think it will work OK or is the size too small?