Foods that are processed and need reprocessing need to be done so within 24 hours. Per Linda Lou on this site (as I recall - sorry Linda if not you), bacteria doubles every 10 minutes if present in your food product if not processed properly (and stored at room temperature). If "earlier this week", was within 24 hours, go ahead. I personally NEVER would wait 24 hours but would do so immediately unless the jar was refrigerated, contents reheated, and new clean jars and caps used.
Cooking 20 minutes will NOT make contaminated food safe to eat.
Hate to say it, but I would throw it out if you processed your chicken at 10 pounds and your gauge if off 4 pounds.
On the practical side, what is the value of the chicken vs. the value of your loved ones. I can buy whole chickens where I live from 49 to 99 cents a pound on sale. When a whole chicken can be purchased for $3.00 or less, why risk it?
Now you need to buy a new gauge and install it. Have your jars washed and clean and you will be ready to can chicken. You will probably never forget to look at your gauge again at the start of canning.
Sorry.
Jim in So. Calif.

Agree. Unless you know for a fact that you gauge was reading 15 lbs. throughout the processing time (that would allow for the 4 lbs. it is off) then the chicken is unsafe to eat. Sorry.

What else have you pressure canned this season because your gauge was off for all of that too.

This is a prime example of the problems with gauged canners. If it is a Presto you need to buy the 3 piece weight set (Part NO. 50332) and convert it to a weighted canner.

Dave

My extension agent said that the limit for a gauge being off is 3 psi. If it's more, than she says to replace it. Mine is off by two, so I need to make sure it gets over the standard pressure by 2.
I agree with what Jim said, it's just not worth the risk. Get that gauge replaced! A few dollars lost for peace of mind and a replacement gauge will eliminate those doubts.
Have the new gauge checked as well before you use it!

Definatly need to be using a weight set not the gauge its much cheaper in the long run as the gauge never has to be tested
before I got the 3 piece set for my presto I just ran everything at 15 pounds using the factory regulator

Botulism toxin is easily destroyed by cooking, and your idea of using the chicken in a soup that boiled for 20 minutes would be more than adequate.

The safe margin is 2 lb. off, not 3.
I am sorry, but my advice is to toss the chicken. Not worth the risk. Technically boiling will destry the toxin in the food.
However,even if you do boil it, think about cross contamination with the spoons, hot pads, dish cloth, anything else in the kitchen. You would not be boiling the can opener,possible drip on your hands, etc. that you are using in the kitchen. I would toss the sealed jars and not open them. That is the safe recommended thing to do. Opening suspect jars is not safe to do.
Yes, foods must be reprocessed within 24 hours or all of the bacteria may not be destroyed. If it is present then it would have grown by leaps and bound in the sealed jars.
Also, do not assume a new gauge will be any different. They are often that much new out of the box. It needs to be tested before you use a new gauge.
I also recommend getting the weight set and using it if it will fit your model of canner. They cost between 10 and 15 dollars. Part number 50332 from Presto. It is safe to convert over as I researched it before ever teaching people to do this. Even OK'd by Elizabeth Andress at the Univ. of Georgia and also someone from Presto.
Very easy to use the weights and very reliable. Never have to test the gauge again with the weights.

Botulism toxin is easily destroyed by cooking, and your idea of using the chicken in a soup that boiled for 20 minutes would be more than adequate.

David while it is true that the toxin may be neutralized by boiling the soup for 20 mins., the spores in the chicken will not be killed by the boiling. And the toxins in the chicken itself may not be totally destroyed given the difference between heat convection through a liquid vs. a solid.

So let's assume for purposes of discussion that there is some left over chicken soup that goes into the fridge and a day or so later someone decides to microwave the left overs of that soup for lunch. Since the spores are still active additional toxin has been produced and microwaving it sure isn't going to make it safe to consume.

Proper processing would have.

Waste is a sad thing, true. But advocating potentially hazardous practices without all the details can be lethal. So if one chooses to eat that chicken soup (and it isn't recommended to do so) then at a minimum it would need to be boiled for 20 mins. and immediately consumed and any left overs pitched or re-boiled for an additional 20 mins.

This, not to mention, that botulism is not the only threat from under-processed chicken, only the most dangerous.

Dave

Thanks everyone. I've learned several important lessons from this. One of which is to label separate batches. My 18 pints of good chicken done in a different canner (gauge was tested and is working properly) are boxed with the bad chicken, so looks like it'll all have to go. Sigh.

So, my jars aren't safe either, even after going through the dishwasher?

The official recommendation is to pitch the jars too for the ultimate safety. But in all honesty most of us can't bring ourselves to do that - lids pitched? no problem, but jars I keep.

But the dishwasher won't do it - it only sanitizes not sterilizes. If you choose to keep them, the jars need to be boiled - wash/rinse them well, big pot, bring to a boil with jars submerged completely and boiled for 30 mins. is what I do. JMO.

Dave

Ooh, that hurts to have to throw away the good with the bad. Definitely the safest choice, though. I picked up a tip when I did the online preserving course that was mentioned here last year: You can label your lids prior to processing. That way you can keep your batches straight without having to try to figure it out after processing.

By the way, I kicked butt on that course, because I have learned at the feet of the masters on the Harvest Forum! :) The only thing I was iffy on was making adjustments for altitude. I have paid zero attention to that since when I began canning I determined that for where I live, no adjustments are needed!

Amy

Andrea, it isn't that you can't sterilize the jars, but a person should not open and handle the hazardous food. Even a pinpoint amount of botulism can kill 60,000 people. If you want to risk exposing yourself to that, then you have to make that choice. I am providing you with the proper way to handle the food. Even if you get a bit on a cut, or splash in the eye, you can still get botulism. You don't have to ingest it. This is why we stress DO NOT put in the garbage disposal. It can easily splash and will also contaminate your sink, etc.
You don't have to worry about spores growing in an open container, it is in a sealed container, in the absence or air that botulism spores grow and make the toxin. That is why a sealed jar is dangerous, as well as food in oil. The air supply is cut off and botulism grow in an anerobic environment.

I do think a little perspective might be in order here. To read this thread, you'd think that if she so much as opens one of those jars, 60,000 people will automatically fall to the ground screaming in agony. I truly respect Linda Lou's expertise and everyones' desire to keep people safe, and I understand that botulism toxin is VERY toxic. But putting it like that seems to me unnecessarily alarmist. When has there EVER been a case of 60,000 people ACTUALLY dying from botulism?

I'm not advocating using this broth (though I personally would do so, opening the jars carefully, cleaning the sink afterward, and making sure it boiled for over 20 minutes).

But I am suggesting a less hysterical attitude toward the level of risk. I am quite sure I'd be at more risk crossing the road, shaking hands with a stranger during flu season, or eating commercial hamburger. Every time I cook a chicken there's a risk of cross-contamination from salmonella. I take care the juices don't splash, clean the sink, etc. thoroughly afterwards, and trust in the Good Lord to take care of the tiny bit of risk that remains.

Z

The same could be said for opening a package of store bought chicken in your kitchen. Dripping deadly bacteria all over the counters, floors, sink, utensils, etc.

CR's analysis of fresh, whole broilers bought nationwide revealed that 83 percent harbored campylobacter or salmonella, the leading bacterial causes of foodborne disease. http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/food/food-safety/chicken-safety/chicken-safety-1-07/overview/0107_chick_ov.htm

So the kitchen in question, where the broth was make, must already be a veritable bacterial soup of nasty bugs - yet here is Andrea, safe, it would seem, because she knows how to wash things and prepare fresh food without poisoning herself.

What ever level of risk re cooking time to destroy botulism toxin one wishes to take, the World Health Organization, which advises the billions of people who don't often have the luxury of throwing out food and often eat foods that are even more likely to be contaminated, says this:

The botulinal toxin has been found in a variety of foods, including low-acid preserved vegetables, such as green beans, spinach, mushrooms, and beets; fish, including canned tuna, fermented, smoked and salted fish; and meat products, such as ham, chicken and sausage. The toxin is destroyed by normal cooking processes (heating at >85C for five minutes or boiling for a few minutes.

85ºC is 185ºF. For 5 minutes. Boiling for a few minutes. The toxin is easy to destroy. So, 20 minutes in a soup seems reasonable to me.

Or you can throw it all away, double bagged, wearing a HAZMAT suit.

No offense ment to anybody, however I concur with Zabby that it gets a bit hysterical here, sometimes.

I agree with David52 and Zabby - scare tactic statements on the risks of botulism only serve to scare people away from home canning. Botulism is a very rare disease. With over 20 million home canners in the USA, there are only about seven cases of botulism per year from home canned foods, and a 95% survival rate. Yes it is potentially dangerous and appropriate care should be taken, but then that applies to most things we do in life. If "appropiate care" is defined as zero risk, we would never leave the house, and even there we wouldn't be "100% safe". Just because something can happen does not mean it will happen.

There are some good discussions on the real world risks of botulism in these threads:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/harvest/msg1211133824505.html
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/harvest/msg081501524992.html
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/harvest/msg0714235715780.html
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/harvest/msg0314382417075.html

TomNJ

Just how does posting what are the official recommendations for handling potentially contaminated foods equate to "hysteria"?

Just because one doesn't agree with those recommendations doesn't mean anyone is being "hysterical". No more so then those who choose to ignore the guidelines are being "stupid".

Labeling others and the info they provide accomplishes nothing. Post all positions and let the OP decide for themselves.

Dave

Digdirt, I don't see the word "stupid" used, except in your post.

And I'm not calling anyone that or anything else, but I will expand a bit on what I consider hysteria, which is the concept that opening a jar that just might, possibly, with a very low statistical probability, contain botulism toxin is the equivalent of a major biological attack/hazmat incidence, with dire risk to all in the house, and that the jars, still sealed, should be double bagged and thrown in the trash, not even opened and the contents poured down the sink.

Well, once they're in the trash, the risk doesn't stop there, and the people who pick up the trash should be warned of the incredible danger they risk should they break a jar.

Can't have one of those Waste Management trucks that automatically pick up the bin, dump it in, and then crush it, because that would lead to a truck driving down the road with clouds and clouds of toxin poisoning everybody in the path. Let alone that the driver would just keel over and die at any second.

So what to do? Homeland Security Biological Weapons Team is the only safe way to dispose of a jar of chicken that was processed for the correct amount of time, but with a gauge that was 4 psi off.

Is there a case, anywhere, where a home canned product led to botulism toxin poisoning via the skin? Home canned product causing botulism toxin poisoning through a scratch or a wound?

But by all means, if someone wishes to eliminate the hypothetical risk and throw out the unopened jars, they should do so. But it would be their civic duty to warn the trash haulers and the people that work at the dump as well, as well as all the other people who might use the dump.

All in good fun, and hearing the other side of an argument never hurt anyone. Off to take a steer over for butchering this afternoon. We ran out of grassfed beef about 5 months ago, and never again. I'm buying a 2nd freezer to make sure we don't. :-)

So, you would rather I lie and not give the facts ? How do you think I would feel if someone got ill from doing something unsafe ?
Nobody is coming to your house to see that you dump food.
I don't see facts as being alarmist. You don't want anyone on the news to report about salmonella in eggs, chickens, etc.? Even salmonella in eggs is rare, but we all seem to know the risks due to someone reporting it. How else do you feel people will learn these kinds of facts ?
I never understand people getting upset over information.
Do you get mad at your doctor for giving you information ?
Possible side affects of a drug ? I see this as no different.
Just this week I had to make a choice of whether or not to try a new medication based on possible side affects. Had I not been told them and then had to deal with them, then I would have been upset. I want to know the facts first.
Just my personal opinions.

Linda lou, with all respect, what facts? Has anyone ever gotten botulism poisoning via infection from skin contact with the contents of a jar of home canned food? If thats so, thats a fact. I'd be grateful if you could point out a case.

If nobody has ever gotten or reported a case of botulism toxin poisoning via skin contact from the contents of a jar of home canning, such as splashing it on themselves when they pour it down the sink, then that too is a fact.

And if it is a fact that it is so dangerous that one should never risk opening the jar and pouring it down the sink, then logically it is equally dangerous to all that would come in contact with the jar should it be opened or break - the trash men, the people who work at the dump, etc. are all in grave danger.

I did hear, but didn't bother to verify, that the clinics that do botox injections have had a few 'mishaps' with needles and spills. Now thats a risk I am unwilling to take, and you won't see me anywhere near a botox clinic.

There is nothing wrong with reporting facts, but if the facts are embellished, or reported out of context, or given with a choice of words designed to be sensational in nature, then the end result is to mislead rather than to inform, despite the best of intentions.

Yes it is possible that careless handling of a severely contaminated jar could cause toxin to be transferred to the handler, but as David52 says, if it has never happened, why report it. It's fine to say wear gloves, handle the jars carefully, avoid spillage, and wash your hands, but phrases like "a pinpoint amount of botulism can kill 60,000 people", even if factual, are not meaningful, realistic, or helpful.

Lots of things are possible, including huge tsunamis, massive earthquakes, out of control fires, and global plagues, all of which have happened, but only Hollywood and the evening news capitalizes on these remote possibilities to scare the heck out of people.

Based on CDC statistics, the chances of a home canner dying from botulism in a given year is about 57 million to one (20 million canners, 7 cases per year, 5% fatality rate). And it is probably much greater than that considering that those who did get botulism were likely among the millions who grossly break all the canning rules. Those who fear that they will be "the one" should throw out the jars. Those who want to salvage their work may choose to boil the contents instead. Each person needs to choose their own risk tolerance.

The very conservative advice given in this forum is valuable to the many if not most people who want the lowest possible chance of getting botulism. Others here put the risk into statistical context, where it fades against such daily activities as driving, walking down stairs, and even eating out in restaurants. For those people, more practical advice is valuable.

If I recall correctly, the rules for canning are designed to deliver a "12D" safety level, meaning 12 decimals or one trillion to one chance of a spore surviving. Personally I could live with a mere million to one, even though it is a million times less safe. But then I also drive in cars and fly in airplanes. Reckless me ;-)

TomNJ

>> phrases like "a pinpoint amount of botulism can kill 60,000 people", even if factual, are not meaningful, realistic, or helpful.

Thanks, Tom, for making this important point so clearly. (And respectfully. Indeed nobody has called anyone "stupid," and I hope nobody will.)

Oh, Linda Lou, I hope you know how much I respect and appreciate all your wisdom and advice on this forum. It's six or seven years now since I started canning, but I'll always remember the encouragement and friendly help that you offered then and since. And while I've disagreed with digdirt Dave more times than I have salsa jars in my pantry (that's a LOT!) I respect his input (and his recipes!).

But I think it's, well, frankly, nonsense to say that all you've giving is "information" and those of us debating on the other side aren't.

To convey useful information, one might say "Even a tiny amount, 1/60,0000th of a drop, of botulism toxin is enough to be potentially fatal" might give information in a helpful, useful way for someone considering home-canning safety issues. Talking about "killing 60,000 people" when discussing throwing out, in one sink, some chicken broth that has an EXTREMELY SMALL chance of being contaminated in the first place, does not; it's phrased to promote fear.

I hope the doctor with whom you discussed that new drug did a better job of explaining the risks in a useful way, so you could make informed decisions, rather than delivering an unhelpful statistic out of all useful context designed to scare you.

Zabby

Sorry you don't like my vocabulary and manner of writing.
I suppose I should just copy and paste from CDC and USDA, etc. from now on, and send links.

My point, although apparently poorly made, was that the use of the term "hysteria/hysterical" when applied to discussions here is prejudicial and unnecessary. Just as prejudicial and unnecessary as was the use of the term "stupid" by someone in one of the many previous debates of this issue on this forum.

Stating your differing, personal opinion on the matter is fine but you shouldn't have to resort to using such prejudicial labels. Since it is self-serving, it doesn't undermine other opinions, only your own.

Hang in there Linda Lou. Your opinion and information is vitally important to many of us.

Dave

Would someone please point out the fallacy in my logic? If suspect home canned goods are so dangerous that its far too risky to even open one and pour it down the sink because it might lead to a splashed drop on your hand, then why doesn't this hideously deadly risk continue on in the trash bag, trash can, trash truck, and dump?

David,
I can see your point, but that is supposed to be the reason for not opening the jars,containers, and also double bagging. Here we have an automated trash system. The trash people don't handle our trash, at the curbs, anyway. It is all just done with automated "arms" that pick up and dump the trash cans. I suppose it would depend upon whether or not the whole system of trash disposal is automated or not. However, this is what the CDC says to do, and also USDA.
I am going to copy and paste what I have from the CDC on disposing of contaminated or potentially contaminated food. You will see this is not "hysterical" ,but their words, not mine.
Yes, I did feel put down by those terms ! Thank you, Dave.

From CDC :
Dispose of food that may be contaminated by placing in a sealable bag, wrapping another plastic bag around the sealable bag, and then taping tightly. Place bags in a trash receptacle for non-recyclable trash outside the home and out of reach of humans and pets. Do not discard the food in a sink, garbage disposal, or toilet. Avoid splashing and contact with the skin. Wear rubber or latex gloves when handling open containers of food that you think may be contaminated. Wash hands with soap and running water for at least 2 minutes after handling food or containers that may be contaminated.
Wipe up spills using a bleach solution (use ¼ cup bleach for each 2 cups of water). Completely cover the spill with the bleach solution. Place a layer of paper towels, 5 to 10 towels thick, on top of the bleach. Let the towels sit for at least 15 minutes, then put the paper towels in the trash. Wipe up any remaining liquid with new paper towels. Clean the area with liquid soap and water to remove the bleach. Wash hands with soap and running water for at least 2 minutes. Sponges, cloths, rags and gloves that may have come into contact with contaminated food or containers should be discarded with the food.
***More from CDC *****
Any food that may be contaminated with botulinum toxin should be discarded using extreme care. Even a tiny amount of toxin that is eaten or absorbed through a break in the skin or the eye can cause serious illness. Avoid splashing and contact with the skin. Wear rubber or latex gloves when handling an open can, leaking can, or food prepared from one of the recalled products.. Do not discard the food in a sink, garbage disposal, or toilet.

If the food is in a disposable container, leave it in the container. Put the container in a sealable bag, wrap another plastic bag around the sealable bag, and then tape tightly. If the food is in a non-disposable container, put the food from the container into a sealable bag, wrap another plastic bag around the sealable bag, and then tape tightly. Dispose the taped bags in a trash receptacle for non-recyclable trash outside the home and out of reach of humans and pets. Fill the non-disposable container with a dilute bleach solution (use ¼ cup bleach for every 2 cups of water), and allow to soak for at least 15 minutes. Discard the liquid and wash the container thoroughly with soap and running water.

Sponges, cloths, rags and gloves that may have come into contact with contaminated food or containers should be discarded with the food in a non-recyclable trash receptacle.

After disposing of the product, slowly remove gloves and dispose in a non-recyclable trash receptacle after use. Wash hands with soap and running water for at least 2 minutes.

Thank you, Linda Lou.

Here, our trash is picked up by Waste Management, with one of those one armed trucks, then crushed/compacted, which shatters glass.

It's then taken to the county dump where it is pushed out onto a large table where a crew, wearing gloves and regular jump suits, goes over it looking for what-not, like stuff thats smoldering, then the waste is re-compacted into huge bales, hauled out the back and stacked, eventually buried with dirt when enough is in place.

They have had a few fires at the dump, which are extremely hard and expensive to put out, and have that extra step.

In the nearest town, as well as many municipalities, trash is still collected by individually picking up trash bins by hand, emptying them into the back of a trash truck, with a crew (depending if they have a union or not) varying from 2 to 6 people. I'd think there might be some exposure there as they dump the bins, but who knows.

Would someone please point out the fallacy in my logic?

David the "fallacy" if you want to call it that is that you are trying to prove a negative - that "the threat of botulism in home canned foods is not valid".

It isn't when those foods are properly processed. When they aren't, as is the case in this discussion, then botulism poses a threat.

You want to debate what degree of threat. Fine. But please accept that with something potentially lethal and which can so easily be avoided, zero tolerance for it is a given for many.

Some prefer to compromise; prefer to accept less than zero tolerance in favor of convenience or cost savings or for favorite recipes or multiple other reasons. Fine, that's their choice. Hopefully it is an informed choice based on an understanding of all the information available.

Dave

Ok, Dave - We all know that botulism spores are everywhere - in the ground, in the air, the CDC, USDA, FAO, WHO, etc all tell us so.

There are nearly 7 billion people on this planet now, the majority living in hygienic living and cooking conditions that range from abject squalor to just plain awful. Yet botulin poisoning from food is a miniscule problem, that doesn't even show up on anybody's health statistics, anywhere. Contrasted with the horrendous problems of water borne diseases that kill millions.

So how does this work? Well, the World Health Organization, the FAO, and others tell us that the toxin is destroyed after 5 minutes at 185º, or by boiling a few minutes. Which is the minimum, normal way most people prepare food.

There are a few fundamental rules, with obvious corollaries, that the 7 billion people of the world population depend on. They work pretty good. Cook everything, boil your water, and peel your fruit. That takes care of pretty much every bacterial food borne disease.

So here's where I have a problem. It isn't with anyone on this forum, its with the folks at the CDC and such. If no one has ever contacted botulism toxin poisoning from incidental skin contact with canned food, what is the risk? How is that measured? What's the base line for the calculations? Has anybody done a study on how many jars of home canned chicken pieces, not done at their recommended times, pressures, and so on, but 'pretty close'?

I mean, if there is some data out there that the rate of botulism contamination of home canned chicken that was 4 psi off is the same as the data, widely confirmed, of the salmonella / camphobacteria infection rate of fresh, store bought chicken, 80% - then heck yes, I'd put on a hazmat suit too.

But I suspect that they're just guessing about this. And I'd very much appreciate it if there is any data on skin contact with botulin contaminated food causing poisoning. Because I compost, come in contact with that all the time, I sometimes find some jar of chicken stock thats been in the fridge on the bottom shelf at the far back corner long enough to develop some very interesting and colorful growths, tupperware with fascinating contents, etc.

I just dump the contents into the compost or sink, wash out the container and pop it in the dish washer, and then wash my hands.

Dave, I'm not disputing the risk of botulism in home canning. No problem, its there.

I'm questing the risk of poisoning via skin contact, not consumption, of home canned goods, during such activities as pouring chicken broth down the sink.

For that matter, 2X times the number of botulism poisoning cases comes from eating in restaurants.

And that trash thing - what about apartments and big ol' dumpsters? Dumpster diving homeless people? Raccoons?

David,
You could write Elizabeth Andress at Univ. of Georgia and ask her about the skin contact if you wanted to. Perhaps she can shed some light on the subject. I know it is when there is a cut, or it can splash in the eyes, too, that it is supposed to be possible to get botulism in that manner. That is what I have been taught.
I also recently read they are considering adding another form of botulism, an inhaled type.
Elizabeth Andress is out for a few weeks, so it will take time to hear from her.
I have not checked to see if the CDC has any way to contact them or not. Perhaps a bit of research can give us the contact information. OK, here is a link to the CDC where you can contact them.
Your point about dumpster diving or the homeless, etc. is something to think about, and I can see it could be a bad scenario, but this is the way we are told to tell people to dispose of potentially contaminated foods.

Aw, Linda Lou, I really do appreciate your input. I'm just trying to point out that "information" includes context.

I particularly appreciate your willingness --- in this and all debates --- to say where your information comes from and encourage others to make use of those sources.

I'll shut up now. I think my views are known.

Hoping everyone stays safe AND well-fed,

Z

Thanks, Linda lou.

Let me try to articulate my take on all this, and what we, broadly speaking, know and don't know and the conclusions drawn.

Botulism spores are ubiquitous. They need specific conditions to develop the toxin, ie anaerobic, moist conditions with a nutrient source, all above a certain pH. These conditions are widely available in nature, and so the botulism organism continues its existence. Humans and other higher organisms consume the spores via food, inhalation, or in drinking water. They don't get sick because the aerobic, acidic conditions of the stomach and intestines, and aerobic conditions with the lungs, where, and I'm guessing here, they eventually get coughed out or whacked by the immune system.

There are very, very few cases of botulism toxin poisoning. Heating it up destroys the toxin as well as most bacterial food borne diseases, which is why people cook food.

Home canning can create the anaerobic conditions for the spores to create toxins. Nobody knows or has measured the actual incidence of botulism toxin in home canned products. But we do know that the incidence of people dying from botulism poisoning from home canning is very, very small -and the odds, to use TomNJ's figures above, are somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 million to one. Getting sick would be some what more risky, maybe 1 million to one. Most cases are from restaurants.

We don't know how many home canners follow the strict USDA guidelines, and how many don't. And they never tell us just what was going on when the people did get sick - did they follow the guidelines, or the other extreme, were they using some old plastic and not very clean mayo jar with no processing?

Moving on here, we should remember that in the US, the Federal Gvt, when making recommendations, setting guidelines, and writing laws uses a higher statistical standard than the rest of the world. Which is why the same product - food, medicine, etc., will have an 18 month expiration date in the US and a 5 year expiration date in Europe. This explains why, to destroy botulism toxin in food, the CDC/USDA recommends boiling suspected food 10 minutes, while the rest of the world goes with five.

So, lets say that we have a jar of chicken broth that missed the CDC guidelines by 4 psi. We don't know if the gauge was just stuck in some funny position. We have no idea what the incidence of botulism toxin is in home canned food, but we know it can't be very high or a lot more people would be getting sick. We also know that the guidelines are written to the higher statistical standard. And we also know that boiling the contents for 5 or 10 minutes will destroy the toxin, or there would be a lot more people out there in the world, canning or not, who would be getting sick from this.

So I think its at this point we (me an' the CDC) differ. Going on the weight of the known evidence, I conclude that the number of jars of home-canned produce out there that contains botulism toxin is pretty small. CDC seems to conclude that its very high, and not only that, each jar that is contaminated is, essentially, a bioweapon bulging at the seams just waiting to go off. My problem is there is no evidence that this is the case. In fact the overwhelming evidence is that it's the opposite - very, very few people get sick from home canning.

So with that division in opinion, above I posted that boiling the chicken in a soup for 20 minutes would be fine.

The CDC recommendation, on this presumption of a bioweapon-in-a-jar, tells us not to pour it down the sink because of a risk of skin contact poisoning. The majority of incidences of skin contact poisoning that are documented are addicts shooting up Mexican Black Tar Heroin. There are no documented cases of poisoning by contact with food, and none of with the contents of home canning. Well, I certainly agree with the CDC here: don't shoot up black tar heroin.

I have also heard, but not verified, that there are now a few incidences of skin contamination due to 'oopsies' at botox clinics, where they work with purified toxin.

So here we are now taking about a risk - skin poisoning from a remotely possibly contaminated jar of home canned food infecting someone by skin contact, which has never happened. Well, ok. Thats the job of the CDC/USDA; removing as much risk as possible, But at this point, it seems to me, to be pushing into the realm of statistical meaninglessness. You'd cut your risk far more just by never eating in a restaurant.

The CDC continues to tighten up their recommendations on home canning, removing more and more theoretical risk, thats their job. I'm not surprised that they're working on the possible inhalation of botulin toxin, and I wouldn't be surprised if they soon recommend that home canners wear a gas mask, in addition to double bagging and all that, of food that wasn't processed quite up to their standards.

So thats how I view things. I think the complaint is that it seems, sometimes, on the forum that the logic works the other way - Because the CDC recommends the never-open-double=bag-throw-out questionable jars, then that means that all jars of questionable food are bulging bio weapons with each pint capable of wiping out the greater New York Metropolitan area, just waiting for the chance to get on your skin and kill you.

And I just don't see any evidence, at all, to support this approach.

Hi David52,

It seems that there are three different issues being discussed in this thread:

1. The probability that products canned contrary to the exact USDA guidelines and approved recipes may contain botulism toxin.

2. The use of "alarmist" or out of context language that serves to exaggerates the risks of botulism and unnecessarily scare home canners.

3. The disposal recommendations by Linda Lou, Dave, and the USDA/CDC for jars potentially contaminated with botulism.

On the first issue, I agree that actual statistics demonstrate that botulism is a very rare disease with a risk level well below that of many other daily activities, provided one reasonably follows proper canning procedures. As for approved recipes, millions of home canners follow their own unapproved recipes, and if these sometimes large variations really created a material risk of botulism there would be one heck of a lot more cases reported than the current seven cases per year. Personally I get frustrated when I see people being advised here to dump a whole day's work because they left out the citric acid from tomatoes or added some carrots or extra onions to salsa, but with good discussions like this they will gain the knowledge and perspective to decide whether or not to follow these recommendations.

On the second issue, I also agree that we should all strive to word our advice and recommendations in a manner that is clear and helpful without scaring people away from this wonderful hobby

On the third issue, in my opinion Linda Lou, Dave, and the USDA/CDC are all making the right recommendations, even though you and I may choose to not follow them. The reason is that official recommendations should be simple, safe, and aimed at the lower intelligence levels among home canners if they are to be effective.

For example, while botulism does not necessarily cause a jar's vacuum seal to break, in most cases botulism coexists with other bacterial growth, the other bacterial growth being responsible for a rise in pH that made the botulism growth possible. In such cases the jars may actually be under pressure with the lid bulged. While you and I would cover the jar top with a wet cloth and slowly release the pressure outdoors before opening the jar, many others would just unscrew the band in the kitchen and - pop - spray the pressurized contents all over. This does not mean instant death as some have implied, but it is a dangerous situation that should be avoided. I doubt it gets absorbed through the skin, but who wants a possibly toxic liquid sprayed all over their kitchen, plates glasses, forks, etc. Major cleanup.

The USDA/CDC finds it easier and wiser to simply advise people to dump these jars rather than attempt to prescribe detailed instructions for handling potentially pressurized or poisoned jars. It is not possible for them to follow these jars through the trash disposal and dump process, so they do the best they can by recommending a double wrap in plastic bags - not perfect but probably effective. Are they being ultra and perhaps over conservative? Yes, but that's their job.

Linda Lou's and Dave's role in this is simply to pass along these official recommendations and reach as many people as possible, without editorializing or injecting their opinions. For that I applaud their efforts. Personally I may not follow these recommendations based on my perception of the low risks, but that is my choice. Since everyone here has their own personal risk tolerance, discussions like this incorporating multiple points of view are valuable in providing context for each of us to make our own choices.

Discussing subjects like death and powerful toxins sometimes raises the emotion levels, but we should all strive to focus on facts and appropriate perspective without exaggeration or alarm.

TomNJ

Thanks, TomNJ, - thats something I was not considering, a wider perspective on 'questionable' canned goods - that does indeed cover bulging lids, which can make a real mess when opened and are as dangerous as you say.

I remember once, when working in a lesser developed country, wandering into an import shop and seeing a shelf full of canned peas, about half rocking away on the bulging ends of the cans. Spoke to the manager, he insisted they were ok. Needless to say, I quit shopping there. :-)

Lots of things are possible, including getting botulism from skin contact with unsafely-canned food. But some of them are likelier than others. For example, it is possible to get killed by a meteorite falling on your head. But on my walk to work tomorrow, I will pay more attention to the traffic (about 4,800 pedestrians killed by motor vehicles in the US every year) than to the sky (zero documented cases of people killed by meteorites).

Me, I don't cook meat at home. The long-term fatality rate of people who cooked meat at home is 100%. :-)

Alfie - too funny!

TomNJ - thanks for the succint summary.

Everyone else - I have also had some discouragement over posting and seeing a firestorm light up. However, I have learned a great deal because all of you do hang in there and express your opinions. To be honest, even with the disagreement in this thread, it has been pretty respectful.

I can live with that.

I do appreciate all of you expressing your opinions, explaining why, and helping make me a better canner and more conscientious to avoid problems.

How about a good story?

The hubby is a photographer. A while back, he opened up store bought pickles to set up props in old jars. I didn't realize it until he brought them into the kitchen and asked if I thought they were still good.

After I threw a fit and lectured him on the dangers of botulism, he emptied them into a double bag, using a respirator, gloves, and long sleeve shirt. The bottles are antiques and could not be pitched, so they were twice through the dishwasher with bleach and then another empty load through the dishwasher.

He thinks I overreacted. I'm glad he listened and took extra precautions.

As everyone here knows, I'm a huge proponent of reviewing all the information and then making an informed choice.

Now, given all the information, you probably also know that I just might use the chicken, being sure to boil it before consumption, although I wouldn't feed it to the grandkids, and that even if I decided to dispose of it I'd dump it and sterilize the jars, I wouldn't throw them away. I'd also happily visit Zabby and eat salsa and chips and I'll kiss a horse on the lips and I reuse spaghetti sauce jars, so I'm a risk taker. (grin) I also fly and walk to work daily using a main road, but I don't smoke, so I choose my risks. I'll can from the Complete Ball Blue Book, in spite of it being published in Canada and so not subject to USDA guidelines, but I won't just use a recipe I found "somewhere on the internet" unless I know the source and trust it.

Eating commercially prepared food carries more risk than eating home canned food, as far as I can see. 6 people contracted botulism in 2006 from drinking unrefrigerated carrot juice from a single supplier. If we have 7 cases per year from all the home canned food in the United States, our risk from our own food is much smaller than from consuming commercially prepared products, but I doubt we'll stop eating out or shopping in grocery stores.

I realize that trained professionals like Linda Lou are constrained by government guidelines as to the recommendations they can make, and I'm glad the information is available from her myriad of sources, just as I'm glad information regarding the percentage of risk is also available.

The real trick is in the give and take that happens here, arguing your own personal position without denigrating the positions of others. We each have our own personal "comfort levels" and we are the only ones who can decide what those levels are. Having all the information available to make informed decisions helps us make that decision.

So, I'm happy that Linda Lou is here to help me make decisions based on the information she has available, and I'm also happy that others here will question the percentage of risk involved in "breaking the rules". All information is helpful to me, as long as it is presented in a respectful and polite manner and I'm allowed to make my own decisions.

Annie

I have to have botox injections (5) in my throat and neck, it's a treatment for movement disorder, my first treatment they gave me a little too much, paralzing my esolfus (spelled wrong) I couldn;t eat or drink for about 4 days, until it wore off a little I would just choke, I'm lucky I didn't get pnuemia(also spelled wrong)I almost had to go to a hospital and put on iv's, Thank goodness I didn't have to do that. (the doc did warn me of this side effect) My 2nd treatment was fine :)

I greatly enjoyed this debate, lot of intelligent articulate people on here, which is why I drop in from time to time, I tend to use Linda lou as my drop back position, as I will admit I had, until I stumbled on here, had no idea about botulism, apart from in the abstract, here's a nasty illness, kind of way, not on my radar, going back to the OP, I Canned Apples in Apple juice, only 4 1/2 ib jars al la Balls book, as an experiment, I followed the instructions to the letter, but, felt that this was first time, I bet I made a mistake I don't realise I have, as the jars contain fruit which is above the liquid, I see them everyday and I know I can never use them as I am uncertain, of my knowledge, next I did Annie's salsa which was a half batch and gone in 24 hours :-) by the time I did the next batch confidence had grown enough that the resulting salsa I am happy to eat :-) even now, but I know my level of risk taking is and this will surprise you given what I have just written, is actually high, but coming from a nursing background I sympathizes with Linda Lou, as I had to fight the up hill battle of the MMR as a Doctor wrote a scientifically floored paper on it, and in 2008 a 13 year old child died of measles out of at that point about 450 cases that year in the UK, a huge jump from the year before of cases, as parents where refusing the vaccine and 1 case is a case too many.
so if everyone was to say, well it's only 7 cases in 20 million what harm can it do? to ignore this advice, the figures could jump? just my tuppence worth, that's no even 1 in 2 million, well no, it isn't but many people do lotteries on worse odds, happy canning :-)

Excuse me if this has already been posted:

Microwaving has been shown to kill more germs than either boiling, or soaking in bleach. So if one did have some contaminated chicken leftovers in the fridge, cooking it to a high internal temperature would be most effective in killing anything harmful.

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/food-poisoning/news/20070124/microwave-kills-germs-sponges

Another benefit is that microwaving heats items internally. This, to me, is a last resort since microwaving kills beneficial things too. Although how relevant that is in an already canned and cooked meal might be low...

I don't disbelieve that article, but inanimate objects aren't food. If you would take a small bowl of questionable chicken and zap it that long, you might not have much of anything left you'd want to eat.

I also used to work in a laboratory where we tested cooking appliances, including microwaves. The technology may have changed since then, because it's been many years ago, but the problem with microwave cooking is distributing the radiation evenly. That's why they have paddles and turn-tables. Even the container you use can alter how the microwaves penetrate food. Try baking in one, using conventional containers. LOL. When one side is done, the other can still be raw. No, I would not trust heating in a microwave to make unsafe food safe.