That's just silly, Ink, though as usual with a good point at the core of it. Scrap, I think you did start off with a question that sent the conversation in some rather scattered directions. I think it is a natural error given what you are doing, which is to try to practice landscape design at an advanced level without having taken the introductory course. I sympathize, I do it all the time myself - end up specializing in "learning the hard way." I got a real kick out of your self-description of "wanting to do the PhD." Believe me, I relate. If you were to consult a landscape designer, s/he would start off interviewing you about your needs and aspirations for the site and would design according to those identified priorities. What I think is happening here is that, having perhaps not clearly articulated or listed those priorities because you think you know them, you are being distracted from them by one or more of common practice, alluring ideas, or other people's input. These things have led you down paths that move away from, rather than toward, realizing your preferences. I first heard this process described as being seduced by features you don't need when shopping for software, years ago when the department I worked for was shopping for its first every computer program. Same idea here. For example, somewhere, perhaps in your blog, you spoke with some clarity about a fence for the left side, where it should go and why. Yet in discussions here you have zeroed in mercilessly on the right side, where there is literally no point in doing anything because of your neighbour's tree, I think in response to some comments made. Another example is what I tried to point out three posts up. Why don't you make your priority list as if you were going to consult someone. What would you tell them was important, and what you needed the fastest? What is bugging you the most? I encouraged you to look at the walkway as you said you hate it, but if it currently meets your basic needs while other needs go entirely unmet, then that is wrong too. If you consult someone, they would be able to think all the way through the process from your most immediate needs to a final plan. Without experience, I don't think you can. Frankly, in my yard I can't either. I deal with what needs doing at the moment, and while I think three or four steps ahead, I focus mostly on leaving as many options as possible open for the next few decisions I have to make. I often find myself doing something completely unexpected but serendipitous. If I were to put my plans on paper, they would always incorporate a few areas deliberately grayed, labelled "see how this looks when I get there." Perhaps the right first thing is to build your fence. Or even just to set your fence posts. You can figure out the precise style of pickets or panels later once you see the posts installed. You can figure out the plantings later, once you see what it's like with the fence in place. Will you feel enclosed enough, or too much already, with just a fence? You won't know till you get there. Make the decision then. The fence issue seems like a logical place to start. Why not tell us about your fencing needs? Perhaps someone can help you flesh those out. But this time, don't begin by telling us what you have decided so that the discussion has to tear that down in order to get to new territory, and then has no direction once it gets there. Tell us first what you needs are, why you are thinking of a fence, and what purposes it needs to serve. It is the process of articulating those items that generates good ideas. You may not even need any input once you have made all that clear to yourself. KarinL

ah yes, Suesette, the Aussies have been erecting their inflated barbecues for the last few years, usually involving massive amounts of timber or stone and an absolutely gigantic cooking area. I know the 'barbie' has become something of an Aussie icon but really..... A shame, as I had hopes that the international aspect of Chelsea would be really rewarding. Sadly, the astounding sums of money involved has restricted any really interesting concepts of design and gardening unless it is a pastiche of native styles, conducted by some TV 'face'. Every so often, there will be a standout garden - a few years ago, I remember a spanish garden called 'Patio Povera' - a really witty and unusual take on recycling and found objects and there was a concerted effort to at least give a nod towards water scarcity, climate change and sustainability. However, the last few years, it is business as usual with almost a brazenly decadent theme of opulence and money (last years diamond garden was a nadir, imo). Bread and circuses! Well, I am arming myself for a summer of unwanted spectacle with the Olympics, the European cup, the bloody Jubilee - I predict my allotment will hit an all-time high as I will be spending a LOT of time there.

FOR STARTERS -- For gardens along the SoCal coast, where hot temperatures are moderated by substantial marine influence, and there is little-to-no winter-chill: Easy-to-Grow Teas, such as: Rosette Delizy Le Pactole Mons. Tillier Mutabilis Niles Cochet (may not always open fully in foggy periods) Red/Red-blend Chinas such as: Gloire des Rosomanes ("Ragged Robin") Louis Phillipe Cramoisi Superieur White Pearl In Red Dragon's Mouth "Bengal Fire" ('Miss Lowe's Variety'??) Archduke Charles "Elisabeth's China" (Sacramento City Cemetery) "Magnolia Cemetery China" Noisettes such as: Reve d'Or (and, probably, William Allen Richardson) Blush Noisette (and all of its sports -- deadheading required) such as: "Placerville White Noisette" ("Jacob Seisz") "Roseville Noisette" et al Aimee Vibert Pilarcitos Hybrid Musks (some will need more water) Buff Beauty Cornelia Lavender Dream Jeri Jennings "Secret Garden Musk Climber" "Grandmother's Hat" Tina Marie Classic Moderns: Radiance Red Radiance Snowbird Jeri Coastal Ventura Co., SoCal Sally Holmes

Jim, I think you might as well cross Marie Daly off your list. I'm about two towns south of you on the Peninsula so my conditions are similar to yours, including the alkaline soil. I grow Marie Pavie here. While it is a wonderful plant in many ways, it does get mild chlorosis. It also wants to be about 5 feet tall and 4 feet wide, so it is a bigger plant than you have in mind. From what I understand, Marie Daly is just like its sport parent except in color. I also suggest that you stick to annual rather than perennial salvias as your filler plants. The perennials ones will be more difficult to remove once your roses get some size on them. I went down that same path a few years ago. There are a number of lovely drought tolerant annuals that will fill in nicely for you, and can be eliminated later once you no longer need them. Short lived perennials like lavenders and thyme can work, too. I'd keep away from aggressive selfseeders. They can become weeds. An example is nigella, love-in-the-mist, which self sews aggressively all over the place here. And beware artemisias. Some are thugs that spread by underground roots.