how about applying force at ground level with a sharp object ..... with malice and aforethought .. dragging it in the house.. and using it as a charlie brown xmas tree .... lol ...

when i first started... i went through this with all chams of any size ... potted and ball and burlap ...

ken

This is why it's very important to inspect roots, and correct any girdling or congested roots
at planting time. I lost a few trees, until I started opening up the root-ball and laying the roots
out in radial fashion in the plasting site. It seems like drastic treatment, but at the proper time of year the trees hardly skip a beat.

Good luck!

Josh

Josh,

In potted conifers I agree.

In the case of this one it was the lack of feeder roots that caused massive foliage drop.

Dave

It might need four years but that looks to me like it's on it's way to a full rebound. Don't pitch it. hell cut it in half and send it to me, I'd try to care for it.

Dax

The problem is more likely to be the intact field soil ball. In the "after" picture I can see dry-looking root-ball soil above the surrounding grade. Sparse crowns are a typical response of cypress family conifers to adverse soil moisture conditions.

The Bottom Line
- Balled and burlapped plant materials usually contain soil significantly different than that of the
transplant site.
- Differences in soil texture will impede both water movement and root establishment.
- Root defects can only be found and corrected if root ball soil is removed.
- Proper root preparation combined with best practices for installation will greatly improve tree
establishment and survival in any landscape

Here is a link that might be useful: Myths Files - B & B Rootball

Yep, Bboy (Ron) nailed it.
You've got to open that root-ball up, potted or B & B.
I'd add some mulch, too, to help moderate the differential moisture between the soil-types.

I also agree with Dax....don't toss the tree just yet.
It's a really nice specimen.


Josh

Dave, you have some nice specimens there! And some money invested also. What is the largest size tree you get in the ground with good results?

Here is my usual rant in favor of small transplants:

Hundreds of millions of years God (or chance) created trees. Only a few have found being able to sprout IN THE WILD from a cutting is a genetic advantage. None do better after loosing a large portion of their root mass.

When we order a one foot tree you get probably 90% of the roots in a container that is easy to move.

Pick it up to a ten footer and what you think, 20% or 10% of its roots make it to our yards? No one cares enough to pay for humans or machines to dig up the whole field with the tree. Sometimes they are grown in pots. Ug, them circling roots and the odd watering cycles. Amazing any adapt at all.

blah blah blah, I have a picture someplace of a small pine transplant catching a bigger one.

I would bet money, marbles or booze if I dug it up there would be a main tap root with a few small feeder roots and that's all. Not enough to support all the foliage when planted. I have seen it time & time again.

This conifer is planted 2" above grade all compost and trash were cleaned out 2 days ago resulting in the bare look. I plan to deep water and mulch before cold snap next week. The conifer is not moisture deficient...never has been just root deficient.

I would never debunk a large B&B root ball of dirt...especially for Spring planting. Possibly for Fall planting where roots can reestablish over Winter.

Ron & Josh I appreciate your comments and they have merrit.

Thanks for your input.

Dave

toronado3800...If you look at the upper left corner in the first photo you will see Pseudotsuga menziesii 'Graceful Grace'. A B&B ready to plant. Never any issues with this one. I planted it and it took off. It has a root ball slightly larger then the 'Aurea'. That is about as big as I go. I did transplant a Hoopsii' 3 years ago that had a slightly larger root ball. A successful transplant that was more then I should have taken on. Haven't been the same since.

I have many smaller specimens...1-3-5 gal. that blend in nicely with my larger conifers. I only use the larger conifers when I need a focal point for a given area for balance.

As far as the % of roots that hide inside a ten footer B&B conifer your guess is as good as mine with a wide variance depending on the dig and the plants individual, one of a kind, root structure. Some make it, some barley make it and of course those you plant in the Spring and by August they have croaked. Been there, and experienced all three. The croaked ones when dug up almost always had insufficient roots to insure its survival.

Sure is fun and out of the 500 or so conifers I have planted my losses are now cut to a minimum. Not always the case when I began this hobby15 years ago.

Sure there are the basic rules and formulas you go by as Ron & Josh presented. Experience and micro climate are big players in this game also and should not be ignored. In other words if it works for you then go for it but always be open for new suggestions. I have implemented quite a few that were presented to me on this forum.

Enough said,

Dave

Failed balled in burlap stock planted with intact root-balls and dug up by yours truly have tended to be dust on the inside. New fine roots are grown out of cut root ends as soon as top growth begins the first spring after planting. Unless the specimen was in such a poor condition before planting that it can hardly grow. I have planted a 6'+ Serbian spruce that turned out to be "false balled" (full-sized soil ball sculpted around a tiny, lopped off root system) that grew like a weed from the first spring. How did I know the full extent of roots was only about the size of a human hand? I removed the soil ball at planting time.

There are obviously pro's and con's to this issue. Each person has to decide for him self as to which course to take that will work best for him.

This Cham didn't defoliate because I did not remove the soil from the ball. Yes damage was severe but it is alive and will recover.

Dave

Hey, Dave!

I hope I didn't come across as lecturous in my earlier comments ;)

That makes sense that it was just cleaned up in preparation for watering and mulching.

Josh

I've basically moved to pots only for my own gardens. I think I've planted about 25-30 conifers via B&B and though I've only lost one or two, I've had some rough results occasionally as well. Some are just now establishing, 3 years after planting while other potted plants are taking off in the second year.

I'd certainly keep it though and see what happens. Might turn into a winner, like you said Dave, you never know.

-Will

I'm just curious, Should these ( or any conifers for that matter) NOT be planted in the spring/ summer, and only fall/ winter for best chance at survival? I'm not a big conifer guru by any stretch. I do have good knowledge of many natives, and a few cultivars, but not really much experience at planting any that are more than 3-4 foot sapling height. The ones I have planted I have done so in most months of the year with success, but again, most all have been pines and/ or spruces that are native to my state. Mainly, the only non native "ornamental" pines I have planted have been Mugo, and those seem to do fine whenever they are planted.

That was/ is an awesome specimen for sure. I hope that it comes back and thrives for you. I don't think its a gonner just yet. Give it a chance.

Thanks Dave, I should have noticed that in the first picture standing there proudly. Another stunning conifer.

You have probably planted ten times the number of conifers that I have planted trees total. Everything I plant is smaller. Preference and cheapness work together on me lol.

We are not all governed by the same set of circumstances.

Budget constraints, time and a host of more demanding problems dictate garden development.

In my case I started when I retired. I plan for one day at a time not 10-15 years down the road. I don't have time on my side so I buy larger more established plants. Twigs and seedlings I don't have time for although they some how find their way into my garden from gifts or the need to complete the look I am after. If I had youth and a few acres to play with then my approach to establishing a premier garden would take on a more conservative approach.. Just maintaining what I have are my main concerns now. Several new island designs are planned for the future but I am probably not going there. Kicking back and enjoying what I have seem to be the more sensible thing to do.

In this hobby success and failures always seem to go together. I post both on this forum. Brings out the best in all of us. I learn just as much from the novice as I do the know it alls. Everybody has value an good input...that's why I hang around.

Dave

Dave, i got the same tree, except mine was in a pot. Mine looked GREAT like youres did. I planted it,then months later it looked crappy like youres does. I kept it,it put on new growth, but it lost the original fullness like urs did. Its been a couple years now, I'm going to see how it turns out over time. Hinoki cypress do the same thing though. These trees just are not for this area. You would never find these growing naturally,at least where I'm at 5b

No consensus has been reached by the responses posted except until you can do and autopsy of the root structure you won't know for sure. Given the chance it might recover that's not an option until it dies. The larger issue of B&B vs Container grown continues to rage after a decade of debate. The facts are as follows so you can make up your own mind as to which you would rather deal with.
The American Association of Nurserymen publishes digging guidelines for growers that dictate the proper size ball to dig. Conifer specs are different from deciduous specs based more on height of plant rather than caliper of trunk. I have posed the question to many growers as to what percentage of roots are harvested with the ball when dug to the published standards. 20-25% of roots is always the answer which matches what was posted earlier. However, container grown plants are grown in a media that drains fast be design. So they can dry out during the hot summer or even worse an arctic dry winter. The problem we are faced with is there is no B&B or Container conifer that we can plant and forget. Each method of production has its short comings. Just some facts to consider before discarding BB over container or visa versa.

Dave,
Sorry to read about your problem with this so beautiful Cham. obtusa 'Aurea'. I wanted to buy that too, but ordered a 'Confucious' because of smaller size and width. It is interesting that you bought that plant via your favorite nursery from this very good nursery in the PNW. Everyone and naturally you too did the very best care, and it still happened!

I bought two 4-5 ft potted spruces this spring from my favorite nursery which also got them from that nursery in PNW and those 2 are growing beautifully. Per your example I ordered via my nursery from that PNW nursery 2 larger plants, one a 7 ft Picea omorika 'Pendula Bruns', wondering now, if that will come B&B in May. I hope I will not forget to check properly the roots!

I have two 4 ft plants which defoliated this year, but both came in pots, and I did not remove all the potting medium. The Chamaecyparis thyoides 'Top Point' has a lot of cones, but not much in foliage left, not like the ACS picture. I will wait how it looks coming spring.

I have constructed burlap walls around my newly planted larger conifers to help them through the winter.
Bernd

Bernd...It is good to hear from you.

Several things...

The 'Aurea' did not come from my favorite nursery in the PNW. Probably my first mistake.

Your quote: "Everyone and naturally you too did the very best care, and it still happened"! Yes, but by the same token it can happen to anybody and it does. Its a game of chance we take every time we step out and purchase that special conifer.

The 7ft. 'Pendula Burns' you purchased from Iseli will definitely come B&B. Mine will be in the ground 4 years now and has done very well. You can expect the same results.
Yes..I left the root ball intact.

What's the other larger conifer you ordered?

Cham. t 'Top Point' is a very unstable cultivar which will eventually just lay down and die, like overnight. I have heard stronger words describing this cultivar by one grower in Michigan.

I grew one for 5 years. The last year of its life it was very beautiful and perfect in every way. One of the showiest in my garden at that time. Come next Spring it was totally brown. I am still at a loss on that one. Don't expect any miraculous resurrection of yours.

Sounds like you are totally prepared for Winter protection on your conifers...good luck.

Dave

Dave,

Thanks for your comments. Your garden inspires me a lot. You explained last year how to order larger conifers the year before planting. I am also retired.

Thanks for your encouraging comments in respect to 'Pendula Bruns' and rootball. I recently planted a cornus kousa and a crabapple with rootballs, they are doing very well. The other conifer I ordered is a 5 ft Chamaecyparis obtusa 'Confucious'. Both will replace a large globular Ch.obtusa and an overgrown Canadian hemlock at one corner of my house.

Perhaps you can explain to me why your Ch.o. 'Aurea' is so slender, did it get continuously pruned at the nursery? Looking at the Iseli catalog it is classified as upright broad and large, and the picture there shows it as such.

I must say that the 'Top Point' had some gnarly upper roots when I received it. Sorry that I did not clean and stretch those roots before planting. It has now somewhat bare branches, except for all those blue berry-like cones. Perhaps just before dying it decided to get a lot of offspring. The new 3-4 ft Cupr.nootk.'Van den Akker' which I am nursing back to life lost also half its leaves, but has now a little new growth and new small white roots when I checked. There also I did not clean out the roots before planting, but it was so hot then.

Yes, I am prepared for winter. I also have anti-rabbit chicken-wire around the smaller new conifers which I will fill with coarse bark since the ground is frozen now. All of the new conifers came from the balmy PNW and have to survive their first -20F winter, need some help.

Continue to have fun!
Bernd

bernd...I have no idea why the 'Aurea' was so slender. My nursery man ordered 4 of them...all slender. Mine was the only one that defoliated. The others are fine and planted with their natural root ball. Talking about luck...I had my pick and I took the best one... the worst choice I could have made.

Foliage drop on Cham, nootkatensis could spell trouble. I have 2 'Van Den Akker' and 1 'Green Arrow'...never a sign of foliage drop. My 'Strict Weeper' started slight foliage drop in the Fall of the first year. Every year in the Fall...same thing. After 5 years ...a pitiful thing and I removed it. Put on very little new growth and about 8 ft.

The rabbit thing...I'll post a photo of my set up that permanently keeps these suckers on the outside ...looking in. Something to budget for to prevent ruined dwarf conifers and trees.

Dave

dcsteg,
sorry, off topic, but what kind of spruces are those in the foreground (the large ones in the 1st pic)?

Dave,
the 'Van den Akker' I received finally in June (the first smaller one died , I got credit for it), planted it, then we had 96F here for several days, I watered several times, within a week placed a screen in front of it until October. That plant came from the mild PNW and got blasted with heat here. It lost 2 or 3 lower branchlets and half of its leaves, but looks healthy now. I really would like to have that one growing, but no nursery in my area sells them. But then I could order a larger one- next year!

I have a sunny front yard, and shade in the back via large white pines. In the front I have small conifers, in the back mostly rhododendrons and hostas. I may not have a fence in the front, my backyard has a fence. Luckily I only have one rabbit in the front and that one likes heathers, but might find unprotected dwarf conifers tasty. It did not nibble on the larger ones though. In respect to deer, there was one scout a few houses down the street, they might come this winter for the first time, that would be disaster.
Bernd

Ron (bboy) makes a very good point. In fact there has been a lot of research done regarding the increased viability of nursery stock (both B&B and containered) that have been root 'washed' or essentially bare rooted before planting. That clay root ball that is SOP for B&B product is extremely counterproductive for proper root regrowth and development, not to mention the ability of that mass of soil to dry out once in the ground and resist rehydration as well as the soil interface issues that hinder proper establishment.

"This method is radically different from historically accepted practices. Field applications over the past two decades demonstrates that root washing B&B and container trees lead to substantial increases in tree establishment and survival. Investing the time to prepare and install trees properly will pay future dividends of reduced maintenance and mortality for the lifetime of your landscape."
Don't discount the benefits :-)

Here is a link that might be useful: article on bare rooting purchased nursery stock

Whass...I am sorry but I see no large spruces in the foreground in the 1st. photo. Please look again. Could it be you really meant background? If so Juniperus virginiana 'Canaertii'. Planted in 1981 at 6 ft. tall.

gardengal48 yes, Ron makes a valid point that has merit and I appreciate you chiming in.

In my case I still stand by my assumption...not enough supporting root base to feed foliage. After almost a year in the ground, not quit, my guess is new root growth has developed and has already passed into my existing soil and is the sole support of providing food for what's left. I would expect a small amount of growth next year and 3 years to reestablish.

Dave

I just talked to my brother in Germany. He lives in Oldenburg, just next to the Ammerland where Jedeloh and Bruns nurseries are located, and that is just over the border from the Netherlands. He was told that these nurseries will replant trees as they grow periodically such that there is no loss of roots when they are shipped to customers. This applies to potted trees and trees growing in the ground. Why then in the US will B&B trees have to lose 75-80% of their roots for shipment?
Bernd

I am told ,if done right, a grower will spade around a conifer 1-2 years before it's dug. This promotes new root growth helping to insure survival upon transplant.

Dave