Certainly worth a try. The big difference between the two climates is rainfall and humidity distribution - Croatia has dry summers and wet winters, you get wet summers and drier winters. The latter isn't likely to be much of a problem, but your hot wet summers could give them disease problems (Pinus halepensis is likely to suffer this; that's why it does better in CA); also hot humid weather doesn't cool down so much at night as hot dry weather, and some species (most likely Picea omorika of the ones mentioned) may not be able to cope with the warm nights in VA.

Resin

I too like the pictures I've seen (yours and others) of conifers and palms along the Mediterranean.

Resin has good points. I recommend you visit the campus of W&M to see their conifers, and the Norfolk Botanic garden. At one time W&M had an adventurous planting policy but that seemed to be going by the wayside through the 90s. For example they tore out a beautiful old Arbutus unedo 'Compacta' - a Mediterranean plant to be sure - to plant a bloody Betula 'Heritage'! I'm not sure what the situation there is, now. They did have a nice Pinus bungeana, and, although not a Med. species, it could certainly be substituted to give "the look". Trachycarpus palms of a known hardy strain should grown just fine in your area.

There is a Pinus pinea at the NCSU arboretum in zn 7b/8a borderline Raleigh, NC.

Resin - Many thanks for the information about rainfall and humidity distribution. I need to find conifers that can be substituted for those that will not thrive here. I also need help in identifying a tree (images below).

David, I will take your advice about going to W&M ASAP. I visited the Norfolk Botanic Garden a few years years ago but was not aware of their conifer collection. I'll make a point to go down there in the next week or two.

Tree ID: This tree seemed to thrive everywhere. It is planted in the paved walkway along the top of the walled city of Korcula, unprotected from wind, especially the cold, dry winds from the north, that kills most vegetation:

What is it? Will it grow in coastal Virginia? I brought back a few cones, just in case. :-) If not, what is a good substitute?

Many thanks,
Pam

Pam

Italian Stone Pine (Pinus pinea)? If yes, it tolerates wind and salt and is hardy to NJ. I may be able to propagate it.

Pinus halepensis (Aleppo Pine). I guess it'll be a little 'iffy', with occasional severe winter snaps, and summer humidity, going to be the main problems. But worth trying all the same.

Not sure about potential susceptibility to pine wilt nematode (it is in a different section of the genus to the well-known highly susceptible European and Asian pines like P. sylvestris and P. thunbergii).

Most similar potential replacement species: Sand Pine (Pinus clausa).

Resin

Good thread. Good luck Pam, I'm pullin' for you! Lovely photos. Photo 2 reminds me of Portland, OR of which I lived there for three years and too where I became severely addicted to the natural beauty of conifers in all settings.

Regards,

Dax

The palms look like: Date Palm (Phoenix dactylifera) Date Palms are hardy down to around 12F or zone 8a/8b. So they could grow at your location. A cold winter might damage or defoliate one but they should continues live well. Although if a rare severe winter with temps below 5F or 10F hit, that might kill (they do make heating like blankets for palms). I wish I could grow these but only certain palms like Windmill palms will grow here.

Climate at your location is fairly close to ours: Humid Subtropical
The wettest seasons are the spring and summer, although rainfall is fairly constant and even all year round. While Dalmatia's climate is the typical Mediterranean climate, with mild, rainy winters and hot and dry summers.

They main difference is SE VA is more humid and has many rain showers and thunderstorms during the summer while the summer in Dalmatia has mostly dry air with no rain. And the winters might be a little warmer in Dalmatia than in VA but I don't know where those trees were in Dalmatia, southern Dalmatia is warmer than northern Dalmatia.

The palms are Phoenix canariensis (Canary Island Date Palm). Hardy down to around -10°C.

Resin

Yeah, the Phoenix sadly will not make it anywhere near SE Virginia, in the long term.

The northern-most "old growth" (haha) Phoenix are in downtown Charleston, SC. Even just a little further north at North Myrtle Beach, SC, they struggle for survival.

Jubaea chilensis is generally thought to be the hardiest pinnate-leaved palm, having recovered from near 0F in parts of France (but should only be thought of as a zn 8 plant) and is more cold tolerant than Phoenix, even it would be an somewhat iffy prospect for the long-term in SE Virginia. There are plant physiologists and geneticists, believe it or not but I know one of them, working on transferring genes for hardiness from one plant family to another...we can hope for a breakthrough in our lifetime. Well, those of us under 40 anyhow! Once Phoenix has the antifreeze mechanism of Picea abies, it will probably be somewhat hardier, although probably never zn 5 hardy.

Resin, you are right about humidity and heat but SE Virginia is not quite as bad as the rest of the south and I think some of the Mediterranean pines might be alright there. I can't find my W&M plant guide book but I have a succinct memory of seeing Pinus halepensis listed within it, though I never bothered to locate the tree on the campus. (the funny thing being I'm having a strictly visual memory of the word "Aleppo" in the goofy late 1980s computer font that the guide was printed in - it was a home grown effort by someone in the biology department)

We have those canary palms in SW England growing outside
some large ones. Trachycarpus fortunei is one of the hardy
palms but its a raggid looking plant.There are nicer hardy
palms than Trachycarpus or maybe hardier species.

Yeah they do look more like Phoenix canariensis (Canary Island Date Palm) because they look thicker but otherwise almost identical from a distance in most other ways. Yes they are hardy down to 16°F (-9°C) which would mean that the winter is at least 6°F warmer in the winter at that location in Dalmatia than in SE VA.

Resin - Sand Pine (Pinus clausa) has a reputation for weak wood, breaks in windy areas, and is not a favorite. What do you think of Limber Pine (Pinus flexilis) and/or Japanese White Pine (Pinus parviflora)?

Dax, thanks for the words of encouragement. I haven't visited Portland yet. Seems like people who live there don't want to leave. During the trip, I thought about the folks on the Conifers Forum so often, that this is a place for conifer lovers to visit --

When the ancient Greeks colonized the area, they called Korcula the "Black Island" because it is so heavily forested. I don't know why, the soil is limestone, dolomite and marl.

David & Treeguy: In "Trees and Shrubs for Warm Climates," Dirr recommends Phoenix canariensis for Zones 9-11. At temps below 20 F (6 C), foliage is injured. He described a large specimen of Phoenix canariensis on St Simon's Island GA that was killed by 11 degrees F, but also noted that the palm had grown in that location for 30 years.

Are you familiar with the Pindo palm (Butia capitata)? It's a graceful palm, 12-18 feet tall, with a thick trunk and arching fronds. It is tolerant of salt, wind, draught. Zones 8 to 11.

Take care ~ Pam

Here is a link that might be useful: Pindo Palm (Butia capitata)

Yeah the hardiness of palms is a complex subject and somewhat OT, but, Phoenix canariensis should be considered 9a IN THE SOUTHEAST but is known to grow in a few borderline areas like Charleston, which I believe was 9a on the old map and 8b on the "new" map. (1990 LOL)
OTOH in the desert SW there are mature Phoenix even in 8a/8b border areas like El Paso. There it can recover from quick radiational frosts to zn 8 temps or even slightly lower. I read some dates in cold hollows of the Central Valley of California recovered from 6F in the massive 1990 CA freeze. So it gains a few degree of hardiness in a dry climate.

Butia is called zn 8 but I wouldn't count on it long term in Virginia Beach, a winter like 1994 killed them all the way down to the lower part of the NC coast unless they were protected.

But I bet you can grow some central European pines that Charleston, SC could not ;-)

Wow...according to this thread, some old date palms in El Paso probably survived -8F! (Resin, -22 C) Quite amazing but it corroborates what I said above. In the typical eastern winter with our rain, freezing rain, snow and high humidities, the same plant might have been doomed at temperatures as high as 15F. Even the people who experiment with much hardier Trachys as far north as DC or NJ find that protecting young plants from winter wet is critical. The intense solar radiation probably helped too: I'm not going to go find the record but I can easily imagine that following that freeze in El Paso, it went above freezing the next day.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/swest/msg0114151623723.html?9

"Sand Pine (Pinus clausa) has a reputation for weak wood, breaks in windy areas, and is not a favorite. What do you think of Limber Pine (Pinus flexilis) and/or Japanese White Pine (Pinus parviflora)?"

Limber pine I suspect will be a non-starter in VA heat; Southwestern White Pine (P. reflexa; inc cultivars such as 'Vanderwolf's Pyramid') might work, but I'm not sure it'll cope with the humidity. It also doesn't look very much like Aleppo Pine (which Sand Pine, from photos I've seen, does). Ditto on Japanese White Pine - that should do OK climatically, but won't look the same.

"But I bet you can grow some central European pines that Charleston, SC could not ;-)"

Not sure. They are just as likely to suffer from disease problems like pinewood nematode. That could affect Japanese White Pine too; there doesn't seem to be much info on this, but a close relative (Pinus amamiana from Yakushima) is in serious danger of extinction due to the nematode which was introduced accidentally into its range.

How about Pond Pine (Pinus serotina)? That's another local native for you, well adapted to the conditions.

Resin

The Aleppo pines are rugged & handsome -- the form isn't too different than open-grown Table mountain pines. The latter should grow in SE VA, but might be subject to some needle diseases from the high dew-points.

Resin. Hhhhhmmmm. I speak from the experience of having traveled in these areas and seen a greater variety of non-native (locally) pines in SE Virginia than in coastal South Carolina. (I have been to Myrtle Beach and environs a few times, not Charleston, but they are similar)

For example Eastern White Pines are found on the Virginia Peninsula, though they are not common (mainly planted by snowbirds retirees from the north in places like the "Kingsmill" development) and I cannot say for certainly that they last, but I doubt they grow at all in coastal SC. I grew Pinus leucodermis in Northern Virginia for many years, I can imagine this plant could also be grown in SE Virginia but not further south. There is a western white pine, Pinus monticola, in Williamsburg yet there are no western pines at the Raleigh, NC NCSU arboretum.

It is understandable that from your perspective, both climates would seem a swamp-like morass of heat and humidity, but they are different. I may be incorrect but it is my understanding that the british garden author Pamela Harper settled in SE Virginia because it is one of the more equitable areas on the East Coast in terms of climate, mild enough to grow Camellias but temperate enough in summer that not _all_ classical English perennials are out of the question.

Hi David,

I wasn't thinking of climate so much as pine wilt nematode - that is present in both areas, and the central European pines are susceptible.

But point taken; I guess I would think of both as being a swamp-like morass of heat and humidity . . . July mean at Washington D.C. 25.7°C, and at Charleston SC 26.7°C

For comparison, the July mean here is 14.8°C ;-)

Resin

This has links to sheets on specific conifer species.

Here is a link that might be useful: Virginia Cooperative Extension Trees Page

Resin: I appreciate your willingness to continue making suggestions, especially in light of my resistance. You have given me good ideas. Now I need to take field trips to W&M and the Botanical Garden in Norfolk. I'd love to find a conifers expert in this geographic area because it is quite different from most of the Southeast.

Beng - Yes, there was something about the Aleppo pine that struck me too. You described it perfectly. I'd like to try growing it. I'll look into the Table Mountain pine and Resin's recommendations as well.

David, you are right about our climate. We live on Stingray Point, at the end of a peninsula that juts out into the Bay. Being surrounded by a large body of water on three sides is a strong influence on our climate. Temps and humidity are much lower here than 2-3 miles away. The wind blows most of the time, but we are protected from winds out of the north and northeast by a band of trees. Winters are mild with the first freeze in late Nov to early Dec; last frost around mid-March. The Bay has a cooling effect in the spring and early summer - our temps are often 10 degrees lower than the nearest town 3 miles away. Yes, Pamela Harper lives a few miles south of here, as the crow flies. Now anyone reading this thread knows more than you wanted to know about SE VA.

I am sorely tempted to ask about cedars (see photo #2 above) that can take a fair amount of wind, usually from the south, that may go on for weeks in the spring and summer. Given what you know about my climate, would Cedrus libani manage? Cedrus atlantica var. glauca? Neither? Other?

Tomorrow is Thanksgiving so I give thanks for your patience and your help. I hope you have a peaceful, happy Thanksgiving. I'll be planting trees so I'll be happy!

Pam

Cedar would certainly take the climate; whether it could cope with salt spray and poor drainage is another matter. I fear the answer would be no; the few cedars I've seen in coastal gardens here have been very poor, badly burnt on the seaward side.

Resin

This one has them all together in one place. If you are in the Tidewater area, repeated reference is made to how specific kinds behave there.

Here is a link that might be useful: Virginia Cooperative Extension - Selecting Landscape Plants - Conifers

bboy thanks for the link. Unfortunately I don't find it terribly helpful because, for example, they don't mention Japanese Cedar which is not an especially rare plant in that area and grows well. In fact the largest, best looking Cryptomeria I ever saw was about 1 mile from the ocean in Virginia Beach. (granted, it might not be very common in the nursery trade, but you could certainly find it at the better ones)

And I know they are trying to be diplomatic, but they ought to just say if you trying to grow alberta spruce or blue spruce in SE Virginia, you should be committed. Concolor fir? I have trouble believing any nursery south of Washington DC has tried to sell that plant in the past 20 years. (and I've only seen it once in the DC area, frankly $400 3' tall Monkey Puzzles that will probably die from the heat before getting established are more common) I have a picturesque, slowing-declining concolor fir in my yard, but my garden is also along the bay - the other end from where Pam is - and is often 10F cooler than DC in early summer. They were probably more common here as nursery material 50 years ago, when mine was planted.

Some good ideas but a somewhat flawed document.

Definitley seems mediterannean there. Some smart folks helping you indeed! Plant what isn't insect prone would be my advice.

Take care Pam, Hope your drainage is good!

Dax

Sheet on Cryptomeria at first link.

You have given me valuable information and ideas. I will follow up. I brought back a few Aleppo cones and read up on propagation methods. Seems fairly straightforward. :-)

I have another problem but I doubt you can help with this - no mountains. Not one. I'd settle for a small one, maybe 500 meters or so.

I'd like that thank the fine people in this forum. You take the time to educate the confused souls who find our way here, encouraging us to learn and try new things.

Pam

I'd like to underscore that local public collections and private gardens in same environment probably have some kinds of trees that would excite you. Maybe there are garden openings like we have here, as well as some less familiar plants being used on college campuses, at hospitals, utility substations - anywhere a practice of planting beyond the usual range has arisen. Exploring local facilities may turn up something useful. Just walking old neighborhoods with small lots open to the street can be interesting, done on a weekend when some may be working out in their yards it's possible to quiz them about what they have planted. You want to hit sections where people are keeping or making gardens, of course, and not blocks of rentals or other areas where nothing is happening.

bboy: Thanks for the advice and for the info from Va Tech.

I just found another good resource from Tech - the Dendrology site has tree identification fact sheets on approximately 800 species of trees, and other tree information. It appears to be set up as a class, including a syllabus and a professor.

I've wanted to take online classes so this may be the deal.

Thanks again,
Pam

Here is a link that might be useful: Va Tech Dendrology Site