Newbie panic and subsequent questions

11 years ago

Ok, conifer addicts - FRESH MEAT!!! :) Seriously though, I seem to have done things a touch backwards - as in read as many posts as my little brain can handle... AFTER ordering 7 dwarf conifers (from somewhere where it sounds like I might be getting 7 root-bound, mislabeled sticks and so all this might not matter anyhow...)

Anyhoo, I was hoping to get some "expertise intervention" to give my 7 sticks the best shot they got, as I have a few questions after reading a bunch of these wonderful, chock-full-of-info, albeit brain-overloading, posts!

First a little background info - I live in zone 6b, but pretty close to 7a (in south-central PA ~5 mins from the MD border). I ordered my wannabe-gorgeous-dwarf-conifers-one-day, 2 days ago so they have NOT arrived yet. I've listed what I ordered at the end of this post.

First question: (an easy one which will probably have all of you rolling your eyes, but all my searches on it came up with banning marijuana... Sigh.) What is a "ban pot"? :)

Second question: assuming I get my little babies within the next week, is it too late to plant them for my zone? Since they're all 1 gallon-pot-sized or less, should I take them out of their pots before putting them in the ground? If yes, should I place them in their "forever home" spots? Or put them somewhere else? (I don't really have any formal, dutifully treated/built-up-for-several-years "beds" made... I basically live on the side of a mountain... well, foothill, really, but the point being I don't think my soil is all THAT bad - at least it's not the "red" hard clay - it's just that I sometimes tend to dig out more mini-boulders than I do soil. Gives new meaning to the phrase "rock garden". :) Anyways, I digress...) If yes to taking them out of their pots, from what I've read, it sounds like the ideal way to plant them is to separate all the roots, cut off any "J" or girdled roots (unless I can successfully straighten them, correct??), make a hard, packed cone inside my hole, and drape the roots down the mounded cone and fill in the hole, making sure the crown is just above soil level (correct?) Then mulch 2-3" on top of the soil, but away from the trunk, correct? (Potentially dumb) question: this means that I pretty much remove all the soil to untangle the roots, right? Is it too late in the season to remove all their soil? What about doing the root pruning (I'm assuming they're most likely gonna be root-bound)? If SEVERELY root-bound, does that change the answer/how I should plant them? (i.e. stick them back in their pots, plant the pots in the ground, and then try to deal with root pruning and such in early spring instead so that I don't remove too much of the plants' stored energy?)

And finally (I know, I know - you never thought we'd get here...) :) regarding planting locations - in many of the absolutely gorgeous photos that have made me an addict before having any clue what I was doing, it looks like the plants are planted quite close together... But eventually (a long time from now, but still), these things are going to get huge (well... assuming they LIVE). So... how do you decide how far apart to plant these guys? Base it on their "10-yr" size? Base it on their fully mature size? Or base it closer to their current size? I thought some of them didn't like to be transplanted though? Any particular species like it less than the others? Or not something you really have to worry about because they'll still be relatively small when they'd be transplanted?

I apologize for the million and one questions!!! I realize it might take a little bit to sludge through my post and I truly appreciate any efforts at helping these brown thumbs turn green!!! I did try several searches to find answers but seems like I ended up with more questions (being the daggone (impulsive) perfectionist that I am... Ugh!)

So without further ado, here is the list of aspiring contestants that hopefully have not been sent to their doom... And YES! Of COURSE I got 4 of them that are susceptible to sunburn JUST to make it extra-challenging for myself!! (rolling eyes...)

Abies koreana 'Aurea' - ban pot; 5-8" plant

Abies koreana 'Horstmann's Silberlocke' - 1 gal; 10-12" plant

Pinus densiflora 'Oculus Draconis' - ban pot; no size given

Pinus cembra 'Blue Mound' - ban pot; no size given

Pinus strobus 'Blue Shag' - 1 gal; 3 yr graft; 12-15" plant

Picea mariana 'Aurea' - 1 gal; 2 yr graft; 8-12" plant

Picea orientalis 'Skylands' - ban pot; no size given

Many thanks for all your time and help!

Mary

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Comments (19)

ricksample
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Welcome to Garden web Mary!

A ban pot is very small, usually a 1 year graft. Most start out in ban pots and get transfered to 1 gallon size when they get so large. Most likely since they are mostly ban pots, you won't have to much in the terms of pot bound plants, girdled roots, etc. It depends on the grower and how long they got left in the ban pot.

Most plant based on how much space they have. How much do you have? Some with smaller lots plant theirs within a few feet of eachother and move/replace them when they get to large. I have almost 4 acres so I like to space them so they have room for at least 20+ years. Most of mine are spaced 15'+ feet apart. Then I plant perennials and other shrubs between to fill the space. When my conifers get larger, the perennials can easily be removed. The size and shape determins how far apart to space them. A conifer with a 10 years width of 2' wide will get spaced a lot closer together. A conifer with a 10 year width of 4' will get more space, etc. Then some like to plant so they will never outfill the space... they plant them 20 or 30' apart. Which is OK but many, including myself, don't have that much room.
ricksample
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
By the way, I'm in zone 6 and it's a little to late to plant here. The average high last week and next week is only mid 40's. I just don't plant this late because I don't like planting in the cold weather. I enjoy planting in a nice spring or fall day. It could be OK to plant where you are, some on here plant until the ground is frozen.
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severnside
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
The mound on which you flair the roots doesn't have to be hard. In fact it's all about transition. I plant high so I make a shallow scrape and pick/fork that to break up the top 6-9". The mound and capping mix is the virgin earth mixed with some compost but not drastically amended. This way the roots are flaired in a sandwich on the broken earth as a starter. They'll be happy and as the mix breaks down there won't be a big strata interface as long as you didn't amend too much. Rain will flush some compost into the broken up layer and transition will be achieved.
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
OMG!!! .. so many words.. toooo mmmuuucccchh ccoooffeee...

first off.. i thought they were banD pots ... like the ones on the left at the link ...

they are thin and tall.. so as to encourage a tree to grow roots down ...

next.. where are they coming from.. and do we need to harden them off ...

next.. does your ground freeze ...

i have taken late shipments.. taken a wide 5 gallon pot.. filled it with half potting media and half mini bark chips .. mixed well together and properly dampened .. and stuck every pot into that one pot ... KINDA deep ... and left them outdoors.. on the north side of the house.. in full view, so i dont forget about them .. and put them in the barn for the worst of winter... say jan - late feb ... perhaps once a month putting an ice cube or snowball on each pot ...

and then back out by the house come late winter.. protecting from too much water ...

its getting pretty late.. for major root surgery on small babes ... though i dont know how far you can push that in your zone ...

in the alternative... dig a 4 foot row.. remove pot.. heal in... recover with soil.. and then mulch heavily ... protect from vermin.. and deal with them.. come about 4/1 ..

i would not get all wound up.. about perfect placement.. this late in the season ... i would much prefer that you simply 'hold them over' .. and deal with that later ...

the trick.. with any plant ... in a pot over winter is:

GET THEM DORMANT.. AND KEEP THEM DORMANT ...

while providing a little moisture so they dont freeze dry their roots ... they do NOT need sun in winter ... and a black pot in winter sun.. ends up being a dead plant ... and the most important thing is that the roots do NOT go in and out of dormancy repeatedly .. thats the point of the large pot ... it insulates the smaller pots from those warm spells ...

more later when the coffee wears off.. and i quite shaking.. lol ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link
brownthumbs789
Original Author
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Ahhh - you all are AWESOME!!! Thank you for all the info thus far and for the amazingly quick responses!! I'm feeling more hopeful about my soon-to-be little guys already!

I don't have a ton of space - have ~2 acres but about half of that is deciduous woods, and then have a big ol' honkin' sand mound that I'm not allowed to plant on taking up a goodly portion of the other... Now that I'm thinking about it, I'll probably have to plant for the 10 year size (and weep on the eleventh year) unless I separate the little guys (i.e. don't put them all in one or two gardens)...

So what I'm hearing is - my comfort aside haha! - it would be ok to plant these guys in the ground even though it's a bit late, as long as I didn't have to do major root surgery? Is that right? While I do have a few wide 5 gallon pots, I don't have a barn or a garage - only a heated basement - so that's not gonna work. My Mom and Dad (pretty close by) have a barn, and I have a barn where I board my horse, but something tells me I'm going to be a touch neurotic and want these little fellas close at hand... ;) But actually, come to think of it, my 5 gallon pots are all black anyways... Sigh. Soooo if their roots are a mess, just heel them in and deal with them in the spring; otherwise "plant" plant! Sound like a good plan?

LOL!! Ken - I was like you this morning but in reverse... "CRAP!! IT'S 7AM AND I NEED TO END THIS SMALL BOOK OR ELSE I WON'T GET ANY RESPONSES, AND GET TO BED!!" :)

Thanks again to all for the planting tips and awesome advice!!!

Mary
dcsteg
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Rick. It is not to late to plant in Zone 6. It is only to late because it's to cold for you, mid 40's, to plant and you don't like to be cold. You are saying two different things.

When ground freezes then planting it's time to put the shovel away till next season.

I transplanted 5 last week in Zone 5b. Upper 40's. The plants and I fared well.

Mary, take them out of the pot and plant them. Do the necessary root thing first. Water till ground freezes and put 2 inches of mulch around them. Planting them in the fall without pot gives the plants time to acclimate and develop structure which is a bonus with new plants headed into Spring.
Some of your offerings are not dwarfs. If planting for the long term give adequate room based upon mature size. Google them for space and height . 'Skylands' needs full sun but will need to be shaded with shade cloth for two years or it will burn.

Your planting plan sounds sound. Discard the post and get going.

Dave

Don't be discouraged if you loose 1-2 of them.
brownthumbs789
Original Author
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Oops - forgot to add - they're coming from OH so should be ok re: hardening off, right? Ok... what exactly IS hardening off? That would be if the plants are coming from a warmer climate to a colder one, right? Or am I being clueless yet again? :)

Thanks!
Mary
brownthumbs789
Original Author
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Double oops - just saw your post, Dave! Yes, sir! Got it! Thanks! :) (now I just need the plants to arrive...) :D
brownthumbs789
Original Author
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Ack! Forgot to ask... Ok. So my soil might be more on the "clay"/heavy side than I like to admit. I know you don't want to amend the soil too much in the planting hole or else those roots will curl up and not want to explore exiting new territories. However, do you ever add anything to promote better drainage?
dcsteg
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
What is hardening off?

In your case for the time of the year it is dormant. Came from OH I think you said. Should be there.

In simple laymen's terms. It has set next years buds, through growing for the year and taking a snooze for the Winter.

Dave
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
do NOT amend the planting hole..

in that famous OH clay [of which i have many friends who play in it .. or i should say.. on top of it] .. you plant high .. and add a berm of better soil for the rest..

and frankly.. i dont know where you are going to get that stuff this time of year ...

see above regarding holding over ..

i got over 100 of my plants from saybrook .. no better.. or no worse survival rate than any others.. ignore the nattering naybobs of pessimism ...

what possessed you to do this now.. the big sale????

ken
ricksample
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Dave - That's what I tried to say, it could have just came out wrong. Right now the highs where I am are about 42... the lows are around 28-30. I always like to give the trees some time to get established before the real cold weather. Just a personal thing, everyone is different. I'm not one to stand out there in a winter coat & gloves trying to keep warm while I put plants into the ground lol. But some don't mind that

Mary, that concerns me that you got these from Ohio... there are two companies in Ohio that I have purchased from. Maplestoneornamentals - Great plants, great service, they sell mostly band pots. Girards - if you ordered from them I wouldn't bother planting them at all =)
brownthumbs789
Original Author
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
LOL!!! Noooo - don't say that! No negative vibes! These Girard Rejects are gonna be singin' Gloria Gaynor, baby! ;)

Yeah, Ken - was suckered by the 50% off sale... Doh! So. When you say "you plant high .. and add a berm of better soil for the rest..", does that mean basically instead of digging a hole per se, I should do more like what Severnside was saying and pretty much just break up my oh-so-lovely clay (I should go into pottery, not conifers!) under and around where I'm going to put my plant, make a small loose mound and slight trench around it, place G.R. on top spreading and draping his roots as best I can, placing a little clay on top of roots to hold in place, and then put some better soil on top of that so that instead of planting "holes", I have planting "mounds"? And then put 2" of mulch around everything? And then say a prayer and sacrifice a lamb? :0D

Thanks for explaining hardening off, Dave! So you don't really somehow "force" hardening off; it's more just a gotta wait for it kind of thing, right? And since my guys are coming from OH, they should already be dormant and good to go?

As always, many thanks to all! :)
Mary

Here is a link that might be useful: Gloria Gaynor inspiration
ricksample
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
It really depends on your drainage... I also have clay. Some parts of my yard I just plant up slightly, while others I plant much higher. For band pots, you shouldn't have to dig much of a hole. I'm not sure exactly how tall they are... if they are 4" tall I would just dig a hole 1" deep, place it in the hole and it should stick up above the ground 3". Dig a hole somewhere else in your yard to collect more native soil. Break it up so it's workable and spread it around the plant to create the mound. When you're done you should have a mound that is 3" high by around 1' to 1 1/2 round =)
dcsteg
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Another trick if your plant is subjected to to much water...Lawn sprinkling system or what ever.

Dig the planting hole 1 ft. deeper then planting root stock. Cut a piece of PVC 2-3 in size and center in hole. Fill in hole with gravel around the pipe up to planting height. Cover pipe with fine wire mesh to keep dirt out of pipe. Then plant your conifer. Guaranteed you plant won't sit in standing water.

Dave
brownthumbs789
Original Author
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Ahhh - thanks for the "idiot proof" descriptions and directions, guys!! I realize with plants it's far from an exact formula all the time, but being a programmer/analyst, I sometimes get all panicky without SPECIFIC measurements!! :0D

So... with that in mind, any poor soul feel like taking on describing how and in what conditions to set up/apply that shade cloth? And/or winter wind protection? (cheesy grin) Fully realizing I'm flaunting just how ignorant I am about all this, are you supposed to leave it up/on 24/7? Or just during bad spells? Is it something you really should purchase the stuff the stores sell? Or can you rig something homemade like with a plastic tarp (which I have)? I have access to lots of bailing twine, but no burlap or bamboo poles... Any "just be sure to/not to..." warnings?

And for the SUPREME dumb-question-of-the-day, so just because I have clay soil doesn't necessarily mean I have "poor draining" soil? I had been thinking it did... I DO have a LOT of rocks naturally in my soil... Usually dig with a maddox... Not because the ground/soil is always that hard, but because I usually run into many rocks/small boulders... But being on the side of a mountain, I never have any risk of flooding when we get tons of rain. Would that mean I'd have good draining soil? Or not necessarily so?

So... How many are regretting welcoming me to this forum? :0D

Thanks for your all's patience!!!
Mary
fotisr
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Hello Mary,
this the shade cloth situation over a 'Skylands' by Dave's (Dcsteg) instructions. It works wonders! Leave it on for at least two years and then you are sun-scortch free.

three poles in triangular placement with the center pole looking south. Put some cloth on the top triangle as well. I put double cloth on top and on south west as you can see. I leave it on all year long. I have it for one year now and I see no sun stress matters. My 'Skylands' was root-balled and shipped in a box for 12 days in mid-october last year and using this shade cloth along with drip irrigation help de-stress the tree completely.

About drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot x 1 foot and fill it with water. If the water dissapears in half hour you're good. If it doesn't you should plant high so that the top of the plants soil is 1-2 inches higher than the ground so that air can be introduced in the root ball. I have a rocky clay soil my self see:
{{gwi:635730}}

my drainage is about half an hour so I plant in my level or one inch higher. I fill the rest of the circle (to my plants root ball level) with top soil from the forest (mostly Abies cephalonica needles and cone parts to different levels of decomposition) or pine bark mulch and needles. Until now my plants seem fine and some enjoy this rocky clay a lot!

Have fun!
Fotis
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
see above.. regarding holding over

and then restart this conversation mid march.. for planting around 4/1

ken
brownthumbs789
Original Author
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Oh nice! EXTREMELY helpful information, Fotis! And what beautiful plants!! Gives (soon-to-be) my little Skylands something to aspire to! :) Thanks bunches for sharing and taking the time to teach me! I feel better already after seeing the pic of your soil! Haha! I'll do that soil test and report back!

LOL Ken - despite my desires to do otherwise, depending on what the little dudes look like when they arrive, I may have to do just that! Although... it's supposed to be nice this coming weekend - in the 50s! Yay!!

Ok - my latest worry - mulch. I've always just used composted horse patooties/bedding (which was pine CHIPS, not sawdust) in the past in my gardens, and everything seems to have done well with it, including the "big box store" conifers I've gotten in the past. That being said, this is my first dealings with these seemingly delicate little baby conifers. Will the same stuff work/be ok with these guys, albeit not ideal? I've been trying to read up on it and it seems like a lot of folks on here prefer the pine bark mulch, of which I have nada. The other option I have available to me is shredded bark/wood/etc from non-pine trees; one was ash, another was tulip poplar, and I think there was a third but can't remember what. But this would be freshly shredded (trees that were cut down only ~2 weeks ago). Thought I read somewhere that could be a problem? I'm sorry - my head is swimming with everything I've been trying to read!

Again, I can't say enough how much I've appreciated all your help and tips and teachings!!! Many thanks!!!

Mary

Newbie panic and subsequent questions

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