i wouldn't .. they are stressed enough ....

i would dig a trench.. and put them in ASAP .... like an hour ago .. dont worry about the rest .... we will deal with all that later ....

and then see what we all have to say ... and then plant them properly next weekend ..

they are not aquatics.. and will not appreciate more than a short time in water ....

i have to think this one out ....

in the last 3 weeks i have moved/planted over 80 conifers ... some to the nursery .. some out to the garden ... i dont know why you couldn't just put them where you want them ....

on the other hand.. a year in a place where you can give them some TLC wouldn't hurt ...

i will have to get back to you .... and lets see what the rest think ..

but do let ma nature take care of them until you decide what to do ... cool damp fall soil is so much better than a bucket ....

ken

PS: what is your native soil?? ... in my sand.. no roots tend to spiral ... ergo they take off in all directions no matter i do .. ... and i usually have no concern for such .. the clay people might think otherwise ...

Roberta,

I'd just stuff them all in one hole and mulch well and keep moist going into winter.

Come next spring, clip off any 'serious' woody roots and give the rest of the root system a quick shear - maybe cutting off 3 or 4 inches at the bottom as this will provide for a more fibrous root system at planting. That's what you want to do.

Dax

Here is a "third opinion." Just a foot long? That doesn't seem like a big problem. I would get to work digging. When I have really big holes to dig I just settle in, adopt a systematic procedure and enjoy myself--the wonderful feeling of muscles working, the warm physical glow from the well-paced physical effort, etc. But, if the trees are really small, say under 1 foot, they probably will do fine if you trim the roots to 8 inches or so. That will very much reduce the size of the hole. I trim off the very long roots that by chance are attached to some of the bareroot seedlings I get, but those roots are sometimes more like two feet. I would not just jam them in a hole--that will result in malformed roots. Bettter to trim them a little.

--Spruce

"They are over a foot long and that will mean 10 really huge holes"

Not that huge - spruces are surface-rooting, so you don't need to dig deep, just a shallow saucer-shape. Then spread the roots out flat, cover with a thin layer of soil, and water well.

Resin

Resin:

I wouldn't put the roots that shallow. Spruce roots, at least the ones that come out from the root flare, often seem to run along near the surface or actually at the surface of the ground, but in most soils other roots, or sinkers from the surface roots, go all the way to the ultimate rooting depth of the soil. I cited in an earlier post the study done at SUNY Syracuse on Norway spruce root growth which involved a lot of trenching and destructive sampling of Norway spruce root development in a wide variety of soils. Now I think Norway spruce is special, even among other varieties of spruce trees, but Colorado spruce are not completely unlike Norway spruce in many respects, including root development.

If the roots are placed a shallow as you suggest, I would also recommend very, very regular watering until the roots do what thay would do naturally, which is go deep to withstand dry spells and utilize the entire nutrient base of the soil.

Many, if not most soils in Illinois are very deep and if the roots of this tree are a foot long, I would have at least some of them in a spread-out formation one foot deep, which would be only a fraction of the depth they will eventually reach. And I don't see digging a foot deep hole as any kind of excessive hardship. I have never planted any kind of tree without digging a hole deeper than that, if only to loosen the soil and get some of the better soil in the bottom of the hole.

--Spruce

I have been wanting to chime in...the only reason I haven't is that spruce is not my expertise, living in Texas.

However, reading the previous replies, I'm going to offer my answer to your question "Can I trim the roots somewhat?", if for no other reason than to be the contrarian.

"Yes", even profoundly in my opinion. Arbor day sent you the trees because they are dormant. Since they were sent bareroot the roots that do the real work, tiny fibrous hair like roots you may not even be able to see, are dessicated and dead anyway. Sure the plant is under stress as ken described, but even optimal conditions wont change that. most of the damage is done no matter what you do. So you might as well prune and acheive a better root system.

Aside from genetic predisposition, the growth of plants, more than anything else, above and below the soil line, is regulated by hormones. not fertilizer, temperature, photoperiod....Those are nominally important or indirect factors.

Cutting a thick root, like pruning a branch, induces branches. That is becuase the hormonal balance of the plant is changed. More branches means a more fibrous root system. A more fibrous root system is much more efficient than a coarse woody root system.

As for planting them in 'a sheltered nursery bed' I dont know what that means. Who has that? Id containerize them, after an agressive root prune. unless spruce is not hardy one or two zones higher than yours. (it probably is) Id grow them out in containers for a full season. I would never plant a seedling in my landscape. I dont plant two gallon plants in my landscape. Ive heard at least one person (a guru) say that anything less than five gallons is not ready for the landscape. Of course there are exceptions. If someone has a very well looked after bed, devoid of deaf, mischevious dogs or other perils, maybe a dwarf conifer in a 4 inch pot can be established, But Id still rather grow it on in a sheltered place untill it was a little larger.

Leave seedling planting for reforestation. Im not intersted in tortured plants that managed to eek out an existence, I want plants that display their natural potential, that flourish.

The natural tendency is to see the roots of the plant and act like they are a beating human heart, I think they can be ruffed up more than that. cut the suckers.

Well, Charles, lets have a debate--this is a good topic that needs some airing out. Of course we can debate this until we are "blue in the face," as my mother's old expression had it--what we need is some actual trials of different methods of getting young trees established.

Here is what I think would be a good trial: take 40 trees like the ones this topic is about. One half would be planted in the ground as I proposed here, fenced and mulched with weeds kept away and watered as needed. Then the other half would be put in pots for whatever period you think is best and watered as needed, and then planted out in the same soil as the other trees. Then they should be left to grow another 5 years or so and then the trees should be compared according to some standard measures of growth.

I think my trees would win--here's why: First, the roots would get established in their permanant site sooner. They would get deeper sooner and utilize the moisture and nutrient base of the soil better. The potted trees would be pot-bound in two or three years and the roots would have to be "treated" in some way (for you to decide) prior to planting out.

We won't consider the issue of added labor--of you having to plant your trees twice, and needing to do root pruning/untangling twice. You also would need to water the pot growing trees much more regularly and for much longer. Of course I will have to do more weeding around my trees.

A few years ago when I went to a nursery most of the trees for sale were dug and root balled. Now almost everything is in some kind of pot, and some of these potted trees are huge. Most of these trees are terribly root bound with the roots circling around the pots some huge undeterminable number of times. I am never quite sure what I need to do, but probably the best thing is to treat these trees as bareroot and tear this root mass apart and trim the roots. But I admit I have never done this rather extreme corrective treatment so far, but I think I will start. I will take a freshly dug tree with a nice intact root ball any time.

With nurseries the main thing is production and profit. I think what has happened is nurseries have found that growing trees in containers is more effecient and profitable, especially as far as "shelf life" is concerned, but it also avoids the cost of digging and securing a root ball. Probably the most important profit advantage for nurseries is if a containerized tree is not sold the first year it is on the lot, it can much more easily be kept for another year, or two, or three, or four, etc. And by the time it is sold this tree is one absolute disaster of bound up circling and grafted together roots. And it usually has very low vigor. I don't like these plants!!!

--Spruce

Well, Ken's response worried me so I planted my trees in a "sheltered spot" that very day that I posted. I didn't trim the roots and put squares of plastic fencing right on top of the ground with the little tree poking up through each square. That should keep the chickens from scratching them up and they are close to the house where I won't forget to water them weekly for the year.

Next fall, I will plant them in their permanent spots. I will have next summer to prepare 10 holes properly and hopefully I can keep them all healthy until then. Thanks for all of your help.

they can also be moved in spring.. as soon as the ground thaws ... first weeks of April in my zone 5 ...

or 5 in spring.. 5 in fall ... or all in fall ...

great to hear you put them right in the ground ...

listen .. i consider a donation to arbor day as just that ... the trees are a bonus ... i have heard numerous complaints that the trees died ... if they do for you ... do NOT beat yourself up about it ... it wont be your fault ...

if you are interested in many similar trees ... check the white pages under US Govmt .... and look for SOIL CONSERVATION district ... and give the local office a call about their spring tree sale .... i got 25 red pines for $16 bucks ... at the appropriate planting time.. they also offered spruce .. and bunches of other plants ... and they were fresh strong stock ....

good luck... ken

"Well, Charles, lets have a debate"....Sure, but I dont want to come across as a know it all - I definitely do not. And again, if you know the first thing about spruce then you already have me at a disadvantage. But I think that some disagreement can help people learn and if I'm wrong then so be it. It wont be the first or last time that happens.

But here's what I was thinking - what's a pretty easy way to ensure maxiumum survial of the very small trees. I think most of us would agree that, all other facotrs being equal, a larger plant will survive more adverse conditions than a very small plant. The seedling stage is probably the most fragile stage in the plant's life cycle.

Having said that, if you take ten seedlings and plant them out in the fall, even using the practices you described, they might all die. Why? well I dunno - freak snow storm, flood, bizarre caribou migration, any number of things could kill them. Planting the trees out exposes them to natural conditions which are not predictable.

If the plant is in a container its easier to prevent stuff like that going wrong. If it snows alot, move the container under the patio, or into the garage. If the caribou are coming, similarly move the containers.

As for the experiment - did you consider that some of your trees are more likely to be lost in the first years? To illustrate that I might design the study this way....take your seedlings and plant them out in fall the way you want to. I would plant mine in containers, maybe two gallon air root pruning containers, like the accelerator brand. There is a link below. I'd use a coarse soilless mix, bark, peat, calcined clay (turface). Use a regular water fertilization schedule. Heres the thing - When conditions are adverse - Ill protect my tree seedlings. Your seedlings must remain caribou fodder. Thats the trade-off. I get to grow mine out for 2 or 3 more years. Once the container is sufficiently colonized with roots I can pot up to the next size or two sizes. Then I plant mine in the landscape just like you did. We evaluate in years 5, 10, 12, 15.

My hypothesis - In year five it will already be apparent that more of my trees are alive. As for the size I dunno - Bet I bet a similar study - comparing container grown nursery stock in air root pruning containers to field grown stock has already been done.

My guess is that in early years the field grown stock would be a little bigger - the constant root pruning drains plant resources as new roots are developed. But I might catch up and pass your trees at some point - Becasue investing resources in a better root system when the plant is young might very well pay dividends in years to come. Im pretty sure it would actually. But I could be wrong - like I said would not be the first time. What do you think? If Im an idiot you can say so - wont hurt my feelings.

Here is a link that might be useful: root pruning container

Well, you assume some of my trees would be lost. I am a forester by education and avocation and I have planted out a couple of thousand two and three year seedlings. Generally I lose less than five percent, and almost all of those have been to pales weevil, which is often present where there have been pines growing recently. Now I don't give these trees any protection either. With a "domestic" planting of blue spruce with fencing, mulching and watering, I don't think I would lose any. But I am an extraordinarily experienced and careful transplanter. So, I would like to remove, as a point of argument here, the idea that I would lose any.

But, I am not familiar with the kind of air root pruning containers you talk about. If your trees are not pot bound, then that removes one of my primary concerns. Now, if you have trees that are vulnerable to early freezes and/or other hazards, then I give the advantage to you. Generally I don't plant conifers in the fall in my climate here--I have never done it and am not sure what the losses would be. I am sure they would be considerable if we get below zero temps and really harsh, dry winds. So it all comes down to what advantage there would be in getting the trees into their ultimate environment earlier. If you are able to give your trees some special boost with special soil mixes/fertilizers, I would have to give the advantage to you.

OK, OK, I think you know that much of my response was to take advantage of an opportunity to go into one of my infamous rants that I periodically go into in these forums. I am fed up with nursuries and many of their practices, such as offering only trees that are easy and cheap to produce, not offering any reasonable variety, not offering some of the best kinds of trees, such as eastern white oak, etc., and this love they have of root bound container grown trees is just too much for me.

So, with that in mind, understand that I can be a reasonable debater and am really open to all kinds of opinions that run counter to what I have always believed.

--Spruce (the one now past his rant)

I'd still just stuff them in a hole, backfill the soil, mulch, put up your little fence around them and come next spring and before they break bud (start growing) - dig them up (untangle of course and at this stage it will be very easy) - and then give them a quick haircut while removing any 'severly' woody roots and then plant to their permanet location come next spring.

"stuffing" simply implies digging one hole and planting the bundle which you could simply tie a string around them so they are all at proper soil level and call it a done deal.

Dax

P.s. I'm a firm believer that a 1-gallon (whether "true" in size or not, is plenty of a root system for planting out).

Roberta
How did your trees make it through the winter.
I planted 10 in a 10 inch pot they all made it.
At the end of march I cut the roots in half and planter them in a 10 inch water plant pot with many holes simmilar to the root pruning pot and so far they are doing well. I did this because they will be used for bonsai forest.
My son-in-law planted them in the open and has not touched them yet but only 8 out of ten survived.
Paul