Whew! I'm tired just reading your post, Spruce - I'm an old woman, too.
If the deer in your area don't like to eat conifers, you could plant more of those than you'd planned and read all the literature you can to find out which broadleaf trees they don't like, if there are any. I don't get that much damage from bucks rubbing their antlers on my trees, but then we've got mostly does here.
There's no way you can do this without doing a lot of work, unless you can afford to hire it done.
Sherry

So many words, so few pictures.

Post some pictures!

Spruce, plant those Prairie Cascade Willows in wet places and prepare to be amazed. These things grow VERY fast and strong. And their golden branches are striking in wintertime.

You are so fortunate to have enough land to satisfy all your tree planting desires :-)

One type of tree that is most surprisingly pleasing here is the sweetgums. They are spectacular in autumn and interesting in winter and full and pretty in spring / summer. They like water too. Mine are too young to have the big balls.

Wish I had planted more oaks and nut trees. It's fun to watch the squirrels!
You convinced me to plant a Norway Spruce, thanks!

Hope you can grow Camellias there also. Nice to have bright color popping out now.

Spruce, you're amazing! Testament to what one individual can do. Yes, I imagine you've had help, but it is your effort.

I like the idea of a more staggered screen. How do you find white fir to perform in your area? I could see this species acting as a foil to the N. spruce groupings, and with its slower growth rate, it could give a varying height aspect for many years that could also increase interest. Of course, this difference in growth rate would have to be considered in terms of one species shading out another and so on. I know you know this, but I mention for benefit of other readers.

As to deer, I expect much trouble with them as well when I get going on my 18 acres. Have you, Spruce, or any other readers, had any experience with anti-feedants such as Plantskydd? The stuff makes the plants look like crap when it's applied, but that would be small price to pay for preventing damage.

I'm of like mind in preferring genetically diverse seed-grown stuff for the most part. But G. Giant is an impressive cultivar, IMO, and it does seem a few groupings of this could add to the delightful effect. Tulip tree, the oaks, and red maple would be great as well.

Best of luck on your latest endeavour!

+oM

Oh, I forgot to mention--I will plant some larch, primarily the hybrid Dunkeld larch. I love its shape and fall color.

Missherry--yes, the deer don't like conifers as much as some others, but here they will eat the firs and white pines. They really won't nibble any of the spruces much. But, and I was shocked to discover this, the deer here--not at my other place in the MD mountains--just seem to have a special hate and vengeance against any conifer. If they see one, even a really little one, they will just completely thrash it to bits--literally, right down to ground level. They won't leave even one inch above the soil line. I have had this happen to white pine, Norway spruce and red cedar. Maybe it has something to do with the fragrance--beats me why they do this. And conifers grown up more they go after and try to destroy. I thought my nice Kosters blue spruce was big enough to withstand deer (7 feet tall, four foot spread), but as soon as I removed the fence to place it around another tree, they started on it. Fortunately I caught the problem before they did any damage to the main trunk. But they did knock off several branches and would have had that tree down to nothing but a stick in the ground in another week or so. AAARRRGGGHHHH!

Tom: at my place in MD the white firs do well, although they are so slow starting, I should live so long. But here some do OK, some not so OK--really there are not many around here. I would try some, but I guess at my age I want something I can count on. One fir that does well here is the Nordmann, but again, they are so SLOW starting. I have three nice little ones that have been in the ground 5 years, and last year just one grew more than 10 inches. they will probably average 15 inches or more eventually, but it is hard to wait. I have some other firs I am trying, (and I will get one more this year), but I have not had them in long enough to know how they will do.

--Spruce

Where do you plan to get the Dunkeld? Are you concerned at all about getting an F1 hybrid? Reason I ask is that in some of the research papers I dug up, seemed like there was a sense that the original crosses were better performers than subsequent generations.

Itasca Greenhouses has this plant. I asked if it was F1, and if I recall, it seems like probably not, but progeny of a good batch. The name Dave Cook comes to mind. He was involved with investigating and propagating this tree.

Okay, before I finished this post, I took a side trip and found a report by Mr. Cook wherein he mentions some later-generation crosses that turned out well, so apparently not a problem.

+oM

Tom: Three years ago I bought two Dunkelds from Forest Farm. Maybe you remember my post about the one that grew 4'5" this last year. I would like to buy them in bulk bareroot, but I am not sure where I can get them. Getting them from Forest Farm is expensive. Lawyer has them, but they only sell wholesale.

--Spruce

Spruce: I agree with Tom about the staggered screen. You need good color and varied texture that will provide interest through the seasons. Aside from agreeing with others, I'm reluctant to make suggestions since I'm new at this.

I heard (but don't know by personal experience) that Lawyer will sell to individuals if they order a minimum of $200. Give the magnitude of your plan, I don't think it would take long to spend $200. If you call Lawyer, you'll know if they are an option for you. They have such a good variety of nice trees.

lol, wow..I thought I picked up a book..Post some pictures!!

Spruce, if the Lawyer idea doesn't pan out, would you consider getting your larch from Itasca Greenhouses, or is there something I'm not aware of causing you to avoid this source? They produce their trees in "styroblocks" so these are technically plugs, not bare root. But their prices seem okay, and the proprietor was once head forester for Georgia Pacific's Maine holdings. He seems to be very on top of things. As it sits right now, this will be my hybrid larch source about one year from now.

+oM

Tom:

Thanks for the tip--I did not know about them. I will give them a call and find out just how large the seedlings are. The ones from forest farm may be a bit larger, but they are also in plugs or small pots. Bareroot, if I get them in at a reasonable time, require much less watering because I can plant them with the roots realy deep. But so far I don't know of any source. Pam suggested I call Lawyer, but reading their "rules," I doubt they will sell to me. Anyway, I will check that also.

--Spruce

Spruce: I think their "rules" are designed to protect their staff from home gardeners who would drive them crazy. Their rules say they sell to professionals. You are a professional. You have had timberland for 30-35+ years. You sell timber. You have a business relationship with a governmental entity.

Lawyer wants to sell large quantities. They don't cater to people who want to order 1 crepe myrtle and maybe one other shrub, but they aren't sure what, can you tell them what to order? That's retail. These kinds of questions drive good staff around the bend.

If you go to their online order page, you'll see that you have to register before placing an order. They ask for your contact and shipping info. They ask for your nursery number, etc but they do not require you to provide this information. They do want your credit card info. ;-)

My company publishes books and training materials. I've never dealt with a wholesaler who wanted proof that I had a business.

If you want to order from Lawyer and you meet their requirements re: a $200 order, I think they will welcome you with open arms (and maybe a Christmas card or calendar at Christmas).

Take care,
Pam

Pam:

Thanks for the info about Lawyer. At this point I am not sure I need them--I am trying to follow up on possibilities with Musser, Carino, and Van's Pines. I am trying to get three different NS seed sources, and these places may have some other things I want, for example, both Van's and Carino have special strains of blue spruce--I am trying to find out what I can about them (one of which, the "Majestic," is the same that Lawyer offers). For this year I may just go with Forest Farm for my hybrid larch--I may "splurge" and get 10 at their expensive 1 gallon rate. One of the two I got before grew spectacularly--seed source for these is important, even though it is a hybrid. But I have no idea what seed source to ask for because there must be two sources. Years ago Dr. John Genys (U of MD) determined that seed source for European larch is almost as important as it is for Norway spruce--as for the Japanese larch, I am clueless.

Anyway, if my inquiries don't yield what I hope for, I may call Lawyer and see what they have.

--Spruce

I think I understand the problem now. Do you know the seed sources for the trees sold by any of these companies? I remember you telling me about the NS, that the Va Nursery program used seed from Germany, the next year they used seed from Romania. Forest Farm is such a wonderful nursery - I just wish they had an East Coast branch. The shipping hurts.

BTW: I haven't bailed on the plan for a NS grove. The area where I want to put this grove is a very big mess - the power company did their tree trimming thing and dumped about 20 loads of wood chips there. (I agreed to take 3-4 loads) It's been too wet to move the chips so I have to wait until next year.

Good luck in your investigations, Spruce. Your plan is ambitious and will probably keep you out of trouble for a few years. ;-)

Pam

Did you not like what you saw then, at Itasca? Just wondering, as I was planning on ordering some from them in a year.

+oM

Tom:

I looked up Itasca and it seems to me that their seedlings are very small. The larch comes in a kind of tray with segments that are just 3.7 cubic inch plugs. The Forest Farm are 1 gallon. Now maybe those are not much taller--I am not sure, but this year I will plant just a few in prime spots and think about going for smaller seedlings next year if I want to plant in larger numbers. And I already tried these Forest Farm larch, and I assume there is a good chance they are using the same seed source.

For the other trees I am going with the biggest I think I can plant effectively. I will probably order 18 to 24 inch transplants--maybe even the 2 to 3' ones at Van's Pines or Carino. The same with the blue spruce and the white pines I want--I want the best seed source, and the most vigorous larger plants. and then I will baby them to keep transplant shock to a minimum. I will get the roots down really far, and that will help with drought resistance and keep the watering requirements down. We get bad dry spells here absolutely every year. The little plugs I would have to water 2 or 3 times a week if we get dry windy weather.

Some people want to get as many trees in ASAP, but I am going for the other option--I will plant fewer, but I will plant the best stock I can find and I will take time to plant them all very carefully and mulch. I think I will get more trees to reach some reasonable size faster this way.

--Spruce

Makes sense. I thought also that the soil plug could be smallish. Let me know how it goes.

+oM

Hi Spruce,

You might add:
Larix mastersiana (very heat tolerant)
Abies phanerolepsis (sold out @ Van Pines)
Abies boernmulleriana
I see no Metasequoia
'Shawnee Brave' Bald Cypress

Dax

Dax:

Thanks for the suggestions. I have an Abies Bornmuelleriana at my place in the MD mts, and was thinking of getting one or two for here. Very similar, it seems to me, to Nordmann fir, of which I have three here and more up there. And I have a metasequoia that is very slow growing--I will plant at least one or two more.

But the Larix mastersiana I know nothing about except what I was able to find in the form discussion a while back. I understand you are growing some. And the Abies phanerolepsis--a variety of balsam fir? I have seen some regular balsam firs around here and they do just so-so. Is this a variety that will do better here?

I have a much more extensive tentative list of what I would like to put on my new 6 acres. I will get my list together later and post it here, but it doesn't include too many really unusual things--mostly it is more of my established favorites.

Anyway, for this year, I am nor sure what I can accomplish. If I have about 225 Norway spruce, some of which will be the larger transplants which take more time to plant than little seedlings, and the hybrid oaks, and some larch as first priorities, that may be all I can handle this year. I am also determined to get Abies numidica and a couple more Norway spruce cultivars this year. But I am always looking for new ideas, and if an opportunity to get something speical turns up, I can always add a few more things for this year.

I will be recovered from my latest of my three recent surgeries, so that limitation is being lifted, but I just had a disaster at my MD tree farm--my trailer home was completely ruined by a sudden and complete failure of a pipe joint in the worst possible place. All the boards and insulation under the floor got completely soaked over more than half the trailer. This will never dry out and mold will start, so I will need to see about getting a new trailer set up, or maybe a small modular home. Anyway, the trailer was an old and cheap one somewhat deteriorated--a 14 X 56 1976 skyline model, so the loss is not terrible on that side--just inconvenient. But then to replace it with something nice will be a bit tough.

--Spruce

Spruceman. I don't know if this will help you or anybody else, but our deer population is huge here in NE Iowa, and it is almost impossible to start a tree without a screen. As my trees get bigger I put used kitty litter around the drip line. It seems to work. Don't know for sure if that is why they stay away, but it is worth a try.

That's too bad about your trailer Spruce. I've had my share of water woes here over the years-ice dams, plumbing issues, etc. Sure is amazing how much damage can happen quickly. Best of luck on getting your place back up to where you need it to be.

A few years back, we had a series of extreme hail storms. I was able to finagle a new roof out of it and had a membrane put in place under the shingles. It's worked so far but this may be the winter that really puts it to the test. My wife was at the hardware store today and they were out of roof shovels. I'm thinking I should get some of the snow down.

+oM

Redwood:

Used kitty litter? I will try some of the deer repellents also. The Norway spruce are very resistant to browsing, but not to buck rubbing. I am wondering if any of the deer repellents work against that. Other trees I can fence--there will be a lot, but that is doable.

Tom:

I have seen in far northern areas where there is a lot of snow and ice--places like Booneville, NY, houses don't have gutters/downspouting, but instead have some kind of aluminum or some kind of metal shield that extends up something like 6 feet from the eaves. This, I assume, is because of all the ice dam dangers. Do people do that where you live?

How much snow--total--do you have on the ground now? Like you, I love snow and an sorry we get so little here. but it can be a lot of work to shovel, etc.

--Spruce

Spruce, I'm moving seedlings of Larix mastersiana to plugs as we speak. I'm gonna fertilize my seedlings this year until I'm blue in the face and I figure doing this along with root pruning, I'll have a beefy plant to go into mother earth in 2.5 growing years. Believe it or not I'm going to water once every two to one week with the ready to go Miracle Grow (plugged onto my hose -- same concept as a Swiffer for floor cleaning).

There was once offered a landscape opportunity here before I refused to accept that I could have a mental illness and I dreamed of the job you're about to endeavor upon, my own chance to show off serious gardening ideas with primarily trees and in my case understory shrubs such as Azaleas and rhododendrons. I dreamed of creating a park like environment where birds and people flocked together, the local ducks. All in all, it was an opportunity to develop the landscapes of a riverfront (Mississippi @ Davenport, IA - Rock Island, IL) plot owned by the city of Davenport but immediately off the front door of a Riverboat Casino... so I thought to mysef, 'hmmmmm. Pinus sylvestis 'Aurea' and on and on... it got ridiculous. I was ready to show these people what real gardening was all about.'

Well that's my story. Only thing I've thought of to ask is if you are certain that your placement of the trees won't be subject to removal when and if you sell. It seems to me a developer will come in... pick and choose the stayers and the leavers and bam 1/3 of your trees are no longer where your vision told you to put them.

Thanks,

Dax

P.s. You'll be proud of me. I'm growing Picea abies, origin: Russia. I estimate I have between 40-60 of these. Not bad huh? Later-

Dax:

Yeah, the "legacy" idea. Well, the future is hard to predict, but if there are beautiful trees all over the place, some will be left by those that come after me.

As for the Russian Norway spruce--why did you choose a Russian seed origin? I have never been told that the seed source for any of the NS offerings I have asked about were from Russia. It has been my observation that the basic vigor of NS trees is expressed early in a large majority of cases, so in three or four years you may have some idea of the vigor of these Russian NS trees in your area. The eventual weeping character of a tree can be expressed, at least a little, by the time they are 6 or 8 feet tall. But the full overall form, including whether the tree will be the more open "comb" form, or the more dense "cascade" form (my term) requires many, many years to be clearly expressed--or at least I have not learned to recognize the early signs of the difference yet.

But in a forest planting, which trees will eventually be the dominant trees and just how beautiful they will be can take a long time--10 or 20 years. The most vigorous and best dominant forest trees are a small percentage--maybe one in 10 or 20 trees. These are just enough to produce a well-stocked stand if the original planting is 6 X 6. In an 8 X 8 planting the results can also be very good, but in my observation there will be a few places where there won't be any really superior dominant tree.

Anyway, if you are becoming more interested in NS, I always recommend mixing together three different seed sources from areas you might be able to guess would be suitable. For my planting this year I think I will use more than 60% from Musser Forests. They used to use a source from a grove in central NY, and that seemed good to me, but I think now they are using a more local central PA source, and this from the few trees I have seen, may be even better. I will also get some from Carino. The problem there is they use two sources, one from Austria, and one from a grove in lower Michigan, but they can't track which seedlings are which. And I will also get some from Van's Pines that are from a lower Michigan grove. One place I asked about uses a northern Minnesota grove, and I think there is less chance that will be good for here in Northern VA. Finding out what the original European seed source was from the groves planted here is the US is sometimes possible--there are some records from the old WPA projects, but I have never tried to dig up that information. Much of it is probably available, but I would need help from someone who has the time and interest for that kind of thing.

Anyway, groves planted here many years ago produce seed that represents "land races," and Charles Maynard at SUNY Syracuse thinks these may be as good or better than the best direct European source. The idea is that any one source represents a lot of variability, and those most adapted to the local climates here grow best and produce the most seed.

--Spruce

I'd say we've got about twenty inch snowcover. It's too windy around here to get the snow to stay where it lands, so there is a lot of variability in snowcover depth. I haven't been in the woods locally lately, but that would be a more accurate measurement.

When I lived in Upper Michigan, the trend was towards no gutters and steel roofs. The snow would accumulate until it reached a point where it would suddenly slide off in great masses. One could actually be partially buried if standing in the wrong place at the wrong time! Around here, in 'civilization', things are more conventional-gutters/downspouts, the whole bit. Also I think the no-gutter approach works better in sand country where the resulting water at the foundation can drain away readily. That's not the case here, with our clay loam.

Where my land is is in the area projected to receive the heaviest snowfall from this storm-aound a foot. I haven't been there for a few weeks. We close the deal on Feb.29 and I can't wait to get up there and tramp around.

I am very intrigued by your comments to Dax regarding N.spruce seedling sources. Yes, Itasca lists a N. Minnesota source for their seed. As that species is front and center in my planting plans (Along with hybrid larch!), I will be researching the various sources closely. As always, your info and opinions are highly appreciated.

+oM

Tom:

Let me give you a few more of my thoughts/observations about growing Norway spruce stands. As for provenance/variability. In addition to the general differences in the adaptation of various strains/provenances to different parts of the country, another thing I have observed in the 15 or so substantial NS stands I have seen and collected seed from in the nearby MD, WV, VA, and PA area, there is also a distinct variation in the amount of variability from tree to tree in each stand. In some stands, the trees look more like each other than in others. As luck would have it, in my own two older stands I see more variation than I have seen in any of the others I have visited--I have no idea why this should be so. The trees were planted between 1962 and 1966. But the variation is such that I can sit now and picture in my mind dozens and dozens of individual trees and the color and weeping character of their foliage, branching angles, bark color. I have quite a few special favorites. This may seem strange, but you have to understand that in addition to walking through my NS stands very often, I have pruned each individual tree in several phases up to at least 25 feet, and in some cases well over 30 feet. Anyway, one of the things I especially like about NS is this variability--with the possible exception of red maple, I have never seen another species of tree like it. For me, the effect in a forest stand of NS is glorious.

Next, if you plant 6 X 6, or even 8 X 8, in about 12 to 15 years what you will have is a really dense "thicket" of NS trunks and branches that you will not be able to walk through. If at that point you want to thin and prune, you will need loping shears just to work your way into the stand, unless you have long arms, a good pruning saw, and dont mind getting scratched. I would recommend not doing anything for about 30 years, and then if you prune and thin, do it yourself by hand and leave all the wood to compost the soil and be taken up by the remaining trees. But if for aesthetic reasons you want to do some early pruning and thinning, that can do no harm.

But for the long term magnificence of the forest, you dont really need to do anything. Norway spruce trees express dominance as well or better than any conifer I know. A couple years ago I called Professor Edwin White at SUNY Syracuse with a few questions that followed up on the studies he directed a few years before, and in the conversation I marveled about the stand at Glady, WV, which I had visited again shortly before--marveled at the strength and beauty of the trees that had continued to express dominance since I first saw the stand almost 20 years before. And he said he was not surprised that I was so impressed, and that if one wants to have the most magnificent stand of NS, and white pine for that matter, there was no need to do any thinning (or pruning) at all. He emphasized that both species expressed dominance over the long run very efficiently. My own observations make me think that NS is even better than white pine in this regard, but I dont have any data--just my informal observations--to back that up.

One of the studies that Professor White directed was a site factors study. I will look that up for you and give you the reference--it was published in the SAF Northern Journal of Applied Forestry. If you are near the U of WI you can find it there (they do have a school of forestry?), but if you call SUNY Syracuse I would guess they would send you a copy. I am not sure how useful this would be to you in selecting a site for your planting, but I found the study fascinating. It is an observational rather than an experimental study, so it is not easy to understand exactly what it all means in practical silvicultural terms. But I can suggest that NS will grow well in soils with a pH above 4.8, and maybe 4.4 or a bit lower, but pH above 5 with some good amount of magnesium is probably best. I have soils in the 4.8 range and I experimented by broadcasting some high mag crushed limestone around a few groups of trees. No dramatic results, but perhaps some improvement--the kind of measurements really needed to determine exactly what the effects have been, were too difficult for me to do with any accuracy.

One surprising finding of the study was that slope position and aspect were apparently unrelated to NS growth. For many species the lower east and north facing slopes are best. When I remarked about this to Professor White, he said that since I am so much further south, that may not be true for NS grown here. Anyway--interesting!

Well, if I can think of anything else, I will come back and post it. In the meantime I will look up the site factors study and give the specific reference.

Oh, I just thought--about larch. There is a professor at SUNY Syracuse who has dome some work with larch--I cant remember his name now, and he told me that larch does best where the soil is fairly deep--he gave me a number like an "A" and "B" horizon (or rooting zone) of at least 18 inches, or something like that. But then he added that if growing on a slope they can do well with less soil depth. I dont know if you have any slopes on your new land. Anyway, for what its worth

--Spruce

Tom:

I found the study I mentioned. The title is "Predicting Norway Spruce Growth from Soil and Topographic Properties in New York," by E. J. Jokela, E. H. White, and J. V. Berglund. Published in the Soil Science Society of America Journal (not by SAF as I thought) Volume 52, no. 3, May--June, 1988. If this is hard to find, call SUNY Syracuse, or send me an e-mail and I can send you a copy.

Another study I found especially enlightening, but one I can tell you about without you needing to read it, is "Site Index Curves for Unthinned Norway Spruce Plantations in New York." This one was in the SAF Northern Journal of Applied Forestry, Volume 5, No. 4, December, 1988. In a nutshell, this study showed that Norway spruce, which is described as a tolerant, long-lived species, has a remarkably fast and long sustained growth rate. On the best sites the trees, after reaching "breast height," approximately 4.5', after 50 years the trees will be up to 112 feet tall and at that point not show much, if any, slowing of the growth rate. The graphs in the article look like perfectly straight lines going upward off the right side of the graph. Most growth curves for trees in the eastern part of the US show the curve beginning to bend over, showing a slower growth rate as the tree approaches 50 years of age.

Of course, if you would like to read this, I could send a copy along with the other study.

--Spruce

Good deal, Spruce! I sent you an email.

I think I'm going to be in good shape for NS on my property. There are indicator species present which hint at decent calcium/magnesium levels in the soil, most prominently Thuja o. And while I have not sunk a shovel in the ground there yet, the presence of an alfalfa field this far North is a good sign. I'm almost certain there is a decent soil depth there.

I find it most interesting the coniferous species that can sustain their rapid growth over an extended period.

Even red pine is being looked at differently here in the Lakes States. Old recommendations were always for something like a 60 year rotation, but new guidelines suggest a much longer rotation may be economically advisable, say on the order of 150-200 years! In other words, decent growth rate will continue far longer than the original cutoff timespan.

You've remarked often about the inherrant variability within the species NS. One thing I see that I've not seen in any other conifer is that on some trees, a particular branch will attain a subdominant status-not competing up there with the main leader, but tending to form its own "tree" off to the side of the main plant. I'll bet you've seen this phenomenon as well. While I'd hate to see all my trees doing this, one or two here and there adds to the interest.

I'd say my land slopes gently to the South. I know that's usually not considered optimal, but somthing about this site and general area tells me I won't be having trouble with the species I plant not liking their home. It's a kind of intangible, observation-based thing, but stuff just grows good around there.

Thanks much........+oM

Nothing of value to add... Just wanted to say that I'm jealous of your land size and plans! :)

Tom:

Just a few comments on your points above. Norway spruce has a better sustained growth than most, if not all native eastern conifers. The summary article I sent you includes some data from another NS study about volume equations--very technbical--suggesting that the mean annual increment of growth for NS "culminates" at an age somewhat past 60. I don't have the data with me now, but I am not sure that white pine has such a late "culmination" of MAI.

Anyway, comparing white pine to NS: without any real statistics--just personal observation--white pine beats NS from planting up to age 25 or 35 or so. Then NS grows better for the next 40 to 50 years, at least, but then white pine--or the best white pine, may do better after that. NS is reported to grow up to about 215 feet, but there are reports from "early lumbermen," that at one time there were white pine up to 250 feet tall. The tallest NS I know are in two places: the stand near Glady, WV is by my educated guess, at least 145 feet tall at age 74. The stand called the Rothkugel east of Bartow, WV at age 100 is maybe 5 feet taller--150. The Rothkugel is growing 5 or 6 inches per year, but the one at Glady is still growing about 16 inches or more per year.

I am sure your soil is great for NS--the gentle southern exposure will be just fine.

The side branches turning upward--yes, I have seen this. In fact the national champion NS tree (which by the way I was responsible for getting listed, but after I got the foresters out there and permission from the Hamilton College, etc. for all the measurements, it turned out that another person had nominated the tree before me but had not followed up to get it measured and listed) has 3 or 4 such branches. When I lived in Arlington, VA, I saw one in a tree nearby develop from the start and watched it for many years. Just a regular branch one year started, at the end, to grow upright. This growth continued for about 12 years while I watched it. As the tip grew upward, the whole branch began also to bend upward, so in the end the branch had a smooth upward curve. One of the branches like this on the national champion tree is really massive. I have not seen this even once on any of my trees in the MD mts., and in fact have not seen it, that I can remember, in any tree in that area at all. But for some reason it is not that uncommon in other areas.

For red pine, the shorter rotations are for pulpwood or fence rails, etc. If one wants saw timber from red pine with clear-grained wood, yes, 200 years. In my area there is no red pine that old, and most stands have problems with beetles and annosus root rot before they get very old. Mine are doing great at age 40 or 45, but I am keeping them thinned and very carefully treating the stumps of any I cut down.

Greenfreak--I have been lucky to have the opportunity to have the land. But I also made acquiring it a top priority. Of course, depending on one's situation, that may be difficult to do

--Spruce