Fig trees growing in pots for Tapla

15 years ago

Hi Al and others!

I have a few fig trees in pots that I got from the Pierre Baud nursery*. I bought his book :" le figuier pas pas" (The fig tree step by step) and followed the instructions carefully. He recommands to use citrus peat, over a drain of clay balls, and use a 4-8-12 NPK fertiliser.He says that fig trees are fond of potassium K and the use of a high % of nitrogen will induce too much growth of vegetation in detriment of fruits. Well I must admit, that so far the result has been . . .a complete desaster! The citrus peat retains far too much water, the clay doesn't drain and the fertiliser, well I cant tell due to the two previous problems. I have to add that I live in the north of France, about 50 miles south of Paris, where winters are long and can be cold, springs are late and often rainy, summers short and often grey, falls early and not that nice! As you can see this is not Saint Tropez! Furthermore It seems it's not getting any better as if we were experiencing some kind of global cooling here. The last hot summer we had was in 2003, notoriously famous for the deadly heat wave, but since then . .zip! All this to say that the poor fig trees in pots have a very hard time in the spring. They spend the winter inside, in a cool place but when it's time to take them out and water them, they get the rain over and over again and the peat turns into a swampy mess. I must add that growing fig trees in the Paris region is possible; Louis XIV, (his gardeners) grew over 700 fig trees in Versailles with major success, some in containers, some planted in the "figueraie" which was unfortunatly destroyed during the revolution.

But, lucky me, while wandering on the garden web forums, I stumbled on your posts: "A soil discussion", "fertilizer program", and "water movement and retension". And thanks a lot to you; you had the solution to my problem; in short too much water in pots. Well I got the fine pine barks (1/8 inch - 3mm), although pretty difficult to find in France (nurseries only sell large pine barks) , the perlite and the peat. The problem will be with the garden lime /gypsum and the micronutrient. Nurseries don't sell these things.

But in Europe we have what we call "grow shops" they mostly sell Dutch fertilizers, and stuff to let you grow, heu . . . whatever you want inside (well it's Europe you know)! Here is an example (http://www.abccultures.fr/hydroponie/eshop/index.php ), look for "angrais et additifs" for fertilizers. Knowing that the PH of my water is pretty high around 7, do you think that the use of:

organic liquid ferilizer like Fish mix from bio bizz (http://www.biobizz.nl/products.php?nid=192&cat=p )with a NPK 6.0-2.0-4.0 and is said to be a complete ferilizer, and add to it ALG.A.MIC (http://www.biobizz.nl/products.php?nid=194&cat=p )NPK 0.1-0.1-0.1 with calcium 0.2% and magnesium 0.1%.

2)or Chemical liquid ferlilizer like Hesi hydro growth (http://www.hesi.nl/english/producten.htm )[click on hydro growth to see the composition label] NPK 12-4-8 which is said also to be complete (normal for hydro?) whith calcium and magnesium as you can see on the label.

. . .will be enough for my trees or should I keep looking for garden lime/gypsum?

Anyway your help on how to improve soil, will be this year, I am sure, already an immense improvement for my trees and anything else I grow in pots.For this, thanks a lot again.

Marc

* Negronne, Pastiliere, Col de dame grey, sucrette, longue d'aout, Tena, Madeleine des deux saisons, Brunswick, Dalmatie, grise de saint jean, Ronde de Bordeaux.

http://www.fig-baud.com/figuiers.html

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tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)

15 years ago

last modified: 9 years ago

The lime depends on what soil you will use. If you use a bark/peat based soil, it may come in at a pH of (Another discussion about liming) After this, the residual fraction of lime makes Ca and Mg more available for uptake.

I am almost absolutely certain that there are nursery/greenhouse operations using dolomitic lime (garden lime) to adjust their soil pH. You might wish to look a little further. BTW - a water pH of 7.0 is very good in comparison to what many of us in the US grow in. My water pH ranges from 8.0 - 8.5. I don't have any difficulties except on a very few plants that are inefficient Fe and Mn users. I have to supplement them with an Fe chelate (Sprint 138) especially formulated for high pH applications.

The 12-4-8 fertilizer you referred to looks like a good choice, though I cannot discern in what quantity the secondary macro nutrients (Ca, Mg, S) are supplied in. We are mainly concerned about the Ca/Mg. In the US, they list the ingredients in order of their volume. There should be about 3 times more Ca than Mg in the formulation, yet the Mg is listed first. They're not in alphabetical order, which might have been a logical explanation, so perhaps the ratio of Ca:Mg is reversed, which would put you at at least greater risk for a Mg induced Ca deficiency. It's just a thought. It could be easily corrected by adding a little CaSO4 (gypsum) to the soil.

I think the fertilizer you are using is probably inappropriate. It has about 6 times as much P as the plant needs, and the K level is high as well. I would suggest that if you use a fertilizer like you mentioned (with a 3:1:2 NPK ratio, and if you feel you need extra K, supply it with a product similar to ProTeKt 0-0-3, which also has silicon - something of much value to containerized trees. You can apply the 3:1:2 ratios at reduced rates to lower the N, supplement the K with the ProTeKt, and still have enough P, so it (ProTeKt) actually adds quite a bit of diversity to the 3:1:3 fertilizers.

I'm not a fan of using organic fertilizers in containers. Chemical forms of fertilizer are no better than organic are no better than chemical ..... with qualifications. Any organic molecule (basically - something containing carbon and that was once alive) will have its nutrients locked in hydrocarbon chains that will require the aid of biotic soil populations to cleave (unlock). So, organic fertilizers depend on the population densities of soil microorganisms.

By nature, organic nutrient supplementation programs in container culture are unreliable and erratic in their ability to deliver nutrients. The reason why is simple: as noted, delivery of nutrients depends on the organic molecules being broken down in the gut of micro-organisms, and micro-organism populations are boom/bust, varying widely in container culture. Some of the things affecting the populations are container soil pH, moisture levels, nutrient levels, soil composition, compaction/aeration levels ..... of particular importance is soil temperatures. When container temperatures rise too high, microbial populations diminish. Temps much under 55* will slow soil biotic activity substantially, reducing or halting delivery of nutrients and possibly inducing ammonium toxicity issues.

Chemical fertilizers, on the other hand, are extremely reliable & immediately available for uptake in elemental form. I offer this information from a physiological perspective only. You'll need to work out the organic/inorganic issue for yourself. I want to avoid that argument & adopt a 'to each his own' attitude about it, but it is much easier for me/most of us to help/guide those who use chemical forms of fertilizer because their problems are usually much easier to pinpoint - the same would apply to your ability to ID problems with nutrition. With an organic program, you could see problems today that are resultant from a fertilizer application 6 weeks ago, and never give any consideration to the possible cause because of the time lapse.

From the perspective of minimizing potential problems, making sure that plants get all the nutrients they need - and even in the right ratio, w/o fertility levels getting too high, and results, I think fertilizers like Miracle-Gro, Osmocote, and other immediately soluble fertilizers win - hands down.

I hope that helped you at least a little.

I want to thank you for and acknowledge your kind words; and to your 'thank you' say, "You're very welcome".

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Comments (9)

marc.o
Original Author
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Al

Thank you for your quick answer. Before asking anymore questions ,I must read the discussion about liming.
I must say that your explanation between organic/chemical fertilizers is very clear, and makes sence. So chemical it will be!
I am going to look deeper for dolomite.The grow shop I was telling you about doesnt know anything about it and only propose for Ca and Mg theese two products:

Ca : http://www.bionova.nl/SiteEN/En/pages/Detail3EN.asp?ID=54

Mg : http://www.bionova.nl/SiteEN/En/pages/Detail3EN.asp?ID=53

and thats it. Bytheway is this the Miracle gro you are talking about (http://www.miraclegro.eu/be-fr/)?
It seems they only offer their "LiquaFeed" thing in Europe. I think I remember you mentioned the all purpose Miracle gro fertilizer. Anyway I'll keep on looking.It's true, though, that osmocote would be much easier.
Ok I am gonna read the discussion about liming and talk to you again afterwards

Thanks again

Marc
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loslunasfarms
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I agree, I really like the Osmocote, but the version available at our local stores does not have micronutrients. Yet, it works very good. I have had very good luck with Dynamite and it has the micronutrients. You can almost tell when the fertilizer starts working because my trees will really start to grow quite nicely.

Marco, I am not sure if you have access to this variety, but if you dont, please contact me.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dynamite Plant Food
tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Forgive me, but my French is not as good as your English. ;o) They sell a product in the US labeled "LiquiFeed" that has a 12-4-8 NPK %, so if the product you are looking at indicates any sort of 3:1:2 ratio, it should be a good choice.

The CRF fertilizers like Osmocote or Dynamite in something close to the 3:1:2 ratios are a pretty good choice if you don't care that you relinquish full control over your nutritional supplementation regimen, or if you want to use them lightly as a back-up in case you forget to fertilize. I tend to like full control, so if I use them, I only incorporate them lightly into the soil (not broadcast on top) and tend to use the 4-6 month formulas so their effects are practically nil by the end of the growing season.

Al
marc.o
Original Author
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Hi al

Nothing is said on the european "miracle gro" site. They just show their liqua-feed stuff you put at the end of the hose and that's it. They don't even show their products. And google France is not much of an help ether,no answer on shops selling Miracle gro.
But I am much more interested by the Dynamite all purpose select. On their site, they say that you can order internationally , but when filling the order, you have to select a US state for shipment address. Bummer!

I did it anyway; they probably are going to contact me; but if you have an easier way , that would be much better.I will just cancel my order.
I am on my way to two big nurseries to try to find dolomite/gypsum/garden lime; I'll let you know about my search as soon as I am back.

Thanks

Marc
loslunasfarms
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Marc, click on my name on this page and got to "send email". Once I get your email I will reply. Have a good day.
marc.o
Original Author
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Hi Al and others

It took me a little time to answer but I have finally found everything (the dolomite and the Miraclegro osmocote) I will use the osmocote this year and see how it works and if I am not happy with the results I will use (next year) your fertilizing "technique". I found these two products by chance in a huge nursery near Paris. It seems that Miraclegro are just starting to sell their products in Europe, their web site only propose their Liquafeed at the end of the hose stuff and that'it , but in nurseries you can find the osmocote and other products. They didn't bother to translate the label on the bottle so I hope they will be able to sell their products here; france is not Quebec, not eveybody speaks english.

Anyway I still have two questions for you :
- In his book, Pierre Baud, says that fig trees are fond of soils rich in calcium. Do you think, I coul add a little more dolomite in your mix (pine bark, perlite, peat) ?
- You use chemical fertilisers mostly and you add a little fish emulsion, wich means it is possible to mix chemical and organic?
Well, that's about it, This year I will use your mix and I am sure that the results will be amaizing. Thanks to you again for your kind help and your patience.

Marc
tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
In the US, MG's LiquiFeed is 12-4-8, the same formulas product that they package as their liquid All-Purpose Fertilizer (also 12-4-8). The odds are, your product is the same product, but you would have to check.

I've often heard anecdotes about figs approving of extra Ca in soils, but somehow, I have difficulty believing that they actually use the extra Ca. It's just a guess, but I would tend to think that they have difficulty regulating uptake of one of the micronutrients (perhaps Fe or Mn) that are more available at lower pHs. The lime would raise pH and make those nutrients less soluble.

The fact that different species of plants grow on different types of soil does not mean that the one needs more of a certain nutrient than the other. It just means that the plants have developed strategies to adapt to certain conditions.

Acid-loving plants have adapted to acid soils. Their need of calcium is still the same as any other plant. Nutrient requirements do not differ from plants that thrive in alkaline soils. The problem for acid-loving plants is that they have not developed a method to limit their calcium uptake, and will absorb too much of it when available, resulting in too high pH-values in cells (blueberries, e.g.). Some acid-loving plants also have difficulties absorbing iron, which is tightly bound in alkaline soils, another reason why they thrive in low pH soils. Plants that prefer a more basic ('basic' being the opposite of acidic) soil have similar issues. This all pertains to the plants ability to handle nutrients, not to the actual nutrient needs of the plant.

I do rely almost exclusively on chemical fertilizers for container culture, even though I am nearly 100% organic in my gardening. I have added fish emulsion to my fertilizer solutions, but I can't tell you why. As a scientific minded person, I know that the organic molecules in fish emulsion are much too large to pass through cell membranes until they are broken down by soil biota whose populations are extremely erratic in containers. Chemical fertilizer ions pass through cell membranes like BBs through a chain link fence, while the organic molecules in FE would be more akin to trying to push basketballs through the same holes.

Plants do not care where their nutrition comes from. Plant nutrients are salts - and until the organic molecules (in FE) are broken down into exactly the same elemental form that chemical fertilizers supply from the get-go, they are useless as nutrition. When we try to supply nutrients in organic form, if the soil's microbial populations are asleep or damaged by adverse cultural conditions, plants don't get 'fed'.

Al
pjc3_in_nj
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Marco,
It looks like I will be in the Paris area in April. Is there a good nursery in the Antony area that has figs? Do you think they will still be dormant in April?

Thanks!

Fig trees growing in pots for Tapla

tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)

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Fig trees growing in pots for Tapla

tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)

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