Hello stevemy...

Abies cultivars are some of my favorites also. Unfortunally heat and humidity are the main culprits that prevent Abies cultivars from doing well...being they are a alpine conifer. Certain soil conditions could also play a part. Yes there will be some one who is successful in growing them where you wouldn't think possible. I suspect micro climate has a big part in it.

Concerning abies firma...I questioned this as I wanted some abies cultivars grafted on abies firma. This was the answer I received from a well known and respected gentleman who I purchase hard to find cultivars from. "There is no supportive evidence that abies firma will do better". He does not use abies firma for root stock. Good enough for me.

I hope you didn't spend big bucks for a nice specimen in your first order from Iseli. Buy a few 1 gal. cultivars...place them in different micro climate areas of your garden and see how it goes. You could be one of the lucky ones who can grow them.

Good luck,

Dave

It's happening man. I know of Abies koreana on firma in places like Alabama or somewhere thriving for years... which by the way is one of the very best Firs for this humid and very hot Illinois climate. I'd say these grafted to firma are good for your climate:
koreana
lasiocarpa
nordmanniana
borisi-regis
alba
concolor
chensiensis
homolepis
balsamea
fraseri
veitchii

in no particular order...

Dax

I share your concerns, and like you I can't get answers/solutions. Gee Farms had some firs I was interested in, but they are grafted on Canaan fir (or was it Fraser?) and I thought that might not be good for my climate here, so I passed on them.

Abies firma rootstock? Could there be other possibilities? Is there a question of genetic compatability--certain rootstocks for certain firs, regardless of climate?? Would Nordmanniana, or Numidica, etc. be possibilities for us in warmar climates and/or heavier soils?

Anyway, so far I have been trying to get firs that are seedlings and not grafted, hoping to avoid the issue. But then maybe some firs would do better if grafted on the right rootstock?

The problem we face is that so many people, nursery men in particular, think that firs are only for cooler and wetter climates. But they do, or could, grow well here, as the collections in tha National and Virginia arboreta show. But how to get the opinions/prejudices changed?? But until that can be done, no one will take any interest in exploring the possibilities offered by various rootstocks for our areas/soils.

--Spruce

The koreana in the sw i don't know who told me about.

Steve, contact the US National Arboretum. That's about as best as I can think of for some answers. Those guys can't grow firs worth a damn, they do grow firma though... they just might know something. You may ask to speak with the oversee-er of the conifer collections. Gotelli and Watnong Collections.

Dax

All the above mentioned have died here in hot and humid Kansas City.

Abies koreana held on the longest...all the others have died in 1-2 years in no particular order

Dax... the two you sent me last year are dead.

Dave

My assessment of the Abies firma issue is that Abies grafted onto firma might be doing better handling the typical Southeast US soil but does that alone protect them from the heat and humidity.

Which leads to the question what precisely causes Abies to typically fail in the Southeast? Is it root rot due to drainage issues in native soil or is heat and humidity or D.) all of the above.

This list of resin's is from an earlier post:

Mediterranean firs
"By order of decreasing heat tolerance, approx:
Abies cilicica
Abies numidica
Abies nebrodensis
Abies pinsapo
Abies cephalonica
Abies bornmuelleriana (= Abies equi-trojani)
Abies borisii-regis
Order of fastest growth rate is approx reverse of heat tolerance"

However these are Abies for hot, dry conditions.

Where would A. firma and A.koreana be on the list when considering heat tolerance only?

Barbara

For what its worth, there's a thriving Christmas Tree industry in Tennessee, and some of the preferred species are listed below. Steve, if you go to the following link and search for a tree farm near you, it will show you a map of the growers and the trees they grow. If they can do it, you can do it!!

http://www.tennesseechristmastrees.org/index.html

Regards,
K4

ARIZONA CYPRESS (Cupressus arizonica)
Blue Ice
The Blue Ice variety of the Arizona Cypress is a unusual blue/gray in color and is an extremely fast grower, often reaching a saleable size 6-7 foot tree within 3-4 years. Becoming very popular at southern Christmas tree farms both for Christmas and for use as a landscape specimen.

Carolina Sapphire
Carolina Sapphires best characteristics include fast growth, a beautiful blue color and an excellent aroma. Many southern farms are presently planting limited quantities of this beautiful tree.

CANAAN FIR (Abies intermedia)
Canaan (pronounced "Ka-naan", with emphasis on the last syllable) is a relative newcomer to the Christmas tree market. It has many similarities to both Fraser and balsam firs in growth and appearance. It has good to excellent needle retention and makes a beautiful Christmas tree in the home. A close relative to the 'Bracted Balsam' it displays some characteristics of both it and the Fraser Fir. While it can withstand somewhat higher temperatures than the Fraser, it does prefer a cooler soil temperature than some southern locations. For those areas which are marginal for growth of the Fraser Fir, the Canaan is a worthwhile substitute for Christmas tree farms.

COLORADO BLUE SPRUCE (Picea pungens)
Colorado blue spruce, or blue spruce, is an attractive tree often used for Christmas trees. Needles are 1-1 1/2 inches long on lower branches but somewhat shorter on upper branches. They are 4-sided and have a very sharp point on the end. Needles are generally dull bluish-gray to silvery blue and emit a resinous odor when crushed. Some trees have a more distinct bluish-white or silvery-white foliage year round. These are often referred to as 'shiners'. Blue spruce is finding increasing popularity as a Christmas tree as a result of its symmetrical form and attractive blue foliage. The species has an excellent natural shape and requires little shearing. Additionally, needle retention is among the best for the spruces. Its popularity as an ornamental leads many consumers to use blue spruce as a living Christmas tree, to be planted after the holiday season.

CONCOLOR FIR (Abies concolor)
The Concolor Fir is an attractive tree with blue-green needles (often quite blue) with a unique aroma, once cut. Its citrus aroma is unique among Christmas trees, and its fine needle holding capability makes it a favorite choice for many real tree lovers during the holidays. It's relatively slow to medium growth rate during the first few years is more than compensated by the beauty of a well formed specimen. Its growth habit prefers moist, well-drained soils, tolerating heat and drought conditions among the best of the fir varieties and will grow in sun to partial shade. It is grown both for Christmas trees, and ornamental stock in Zones 3-7.

DOUGLAS FIR (Pseudotsuga menziesii)
The Douglas FirÂs branches are spreading to drooping, the buds sharply pointed and the bark is very thick, fluted, ridged, rough and dark brown. The needles are dark green or blue green, 1 to 1 1/2 inches long, soft to the touch and radiate out in all directions from the branch. They have a sweet fragrance when crushed.

EASTERN WHITE PINE (Pinus strobus)
Eastern White Pine needles are soft, flexible and bluish-green to silver green in color and are regularly arranged in bundles of five. Needles are 2 1/2-5 inches long and are usually shed at the end of the second growing season. For Christmas trees, sheared trees are preferred as shearing results in dense trees. Needle retention is good to excellent. White pine has very little aroma, but, conversely, is reported to result in fewer allergic reactions than do some of the more aromatic species.

FRASER FIR (Abies fraseri)
The combination of form, needle retention, dark blue-green color, pleasant scent and excellent shipping characteristics has led to Fraser fir being a most popular Christmas tree species. Fraser fir and balsam fir are quite similar. The Fraser Fir is one of the most fragrant of Christmas trees found today. Normally grown at elevations above 3,000 feet in the Appalachian areas of northeastern TN and western North Carolina, many southern growers import Fraser Fir from these areas to satisfy customer demand for this valuable tree.

KOREAN FIR (Abies koreana)
The Korean Fir prefers moist well drained soil, as with most firs, but tolerates less than optimal conditions, although slowing its growth rate in such areas. The needles are gray-green in color with two white bands on the underside. It prefers full sun to partial shade for optimal growth. With its slow to medium growth rate, it is used both for ornamentals and Christmas trees. Zones 5-7.

LEYLAND CYPRESS (Cupressocyparis leylandii)
The foliage of the Leyland cypress tends to be arranged in irregularly flat planes with a dark green to gray color. The shoots branch repeatedly and have a contrasting mahogany color except at the tips. The trees have little aroma. Customers like it because it is not only a very beautiful Christmas tree, but if kept in water, it will outlast any other tree without leaving needles in the carpet.

MEYER SPRUCE (Abies meyeri)
The Meyer Spruce has a moderate growth rate, and is widely tolerant of both medium to heavy soil conditions. Its needles are a blue-green, and are known for excellent needle retention as a cut Christmas tree. This tree is known to withstand extreme conditions and is widely grown both as an ornamental and as Christmas trees. Zones 2-7.

MOMI FIR (Abies firma)
The Momi Fir prefers full sun, and will tolerate a wide variety of soil conditions. Its needles are dark green, but have a slow growth rate. It is widely grown for use as an ornamental, and is currently the source of an experiment by TCTGA members as a root stock for Fraser Fir grafting, since the Momi has a high resistance to phytothera root rot, a problem in the Fraser industry. The Momi does not, in its current form, normally make a desirable Christmas tree for the home. Zone 6-9.

NORDMANN FIR (Abies norrdmaniana)
The Nordmann Fir is a slow growing, but beautiful version of the fir family, with exceptionally dark green needles with two white bands on the underside of each needle. It prefers full sun, and moist, well drained soils, but will withstand less favorable conditions. The waxy coating on the needles assist in preventing moisture loss while growing and the variety is currently being explored by the TCTGA as a suitable short needle fir for areas subject to heat and occasional drought conditions. Test results, while preliminary to date, appear favorable within these conditions. Often grown as ornamentals and Christmas trees, the latter requires a watchful eye to prevent the base from becoming too wide for the height of the tree. This is caused by the tree having a difficult time in setting a proper terminal shoot in early years of growth. Adaptable to Zones 4-7.

NORWAY SPRUCE (Picea abies)
The Norway Spruce is readily identified by its dark green needles and drooping branchlets. Needles are 4-sided, 1/2-1 inch long, and sharp or somewhat blunt at the tip. For Christmas trees, overall color of Norway spruce is good to excellent. A continuous water supply is a must for Norway Spruce as a cut Christmas tree, and the use of tree preservatives is touted as prolonging its life in the home.

SCOTCH PINE (Pinus sylvestris)
More properly defined as 'Scots Pine', this tree is usually referred to as a 'Scotch Pine'. As a Christmas tree, Scotch Pine is known for its dark green foliage and stiff branches which are well suited for decorating with both light and heavy ornaments. It has excellent needle retention characteristics and holds up well throughout harvest, shipping and display. Color is likewise variable with bright green characteristic of a few varieties to dark green to bluish tones more prominent in others. This tree is difficult to grow in southern climates.

SERBIAN SPRUCE (Picea omorika)
The Serbian Spruce is widely adaptable to a variety of soil conditions, with a moderate to fast growth habit. The needles are dark green on the top with a silvery finish on the undersides. The tree appears to take well to growth in containers, as well as the field, but may require a watchful eye from Christmas tree growers, as it has a tendency to produce multiple tops on the trees being tested by the TCTGA. Often grown as an ornamental evergreen, it will adorn the landscape with a lush growth habit. Zones 4-7.

TURKISH FIR (Abies bornmuelleriana)
The Turkish Fir is yet another member of the 'exotic fir' species being tested by the TCTGA for its heat resistance and drought tolerance. Results thus far are proving very interesting, with most young transplants doing very well in areas which have experienced severe rainfall shortages in the past two years. While new needles may appear to be light green, a properly grown tree will mature with dark green needles and good shape. A well formed Christmas tree variety and also a good ornamental. Also appears to grow well as container stock. Adaptable in Zones 5-8.

VIRGINIA PINE (Pinus virginiana)
Virginia pine is a short-needled pine with pleasant pine fragrance, dense foliage and good growth rates. It has been by far the most widely planted southern Christmas tree over the past three decades and still is the most common pine species at most farms in the Deep South. For growing, it requires much additional work, as it must be sheared (shaped) twice per year to retain its pyramidal shape.

WHITE SPRUCE (Picea glauca)
The White Spruce is a first cousin to the Blue Spruce and is a densely pyramidal evergreen. The needles are a dusty green to blue green in color. The species is a hardy variety, known for its wide adaptability to various adverse conditions such as heat, cold and drought. While it prefers a well drained soil, it will adapt to almost any soil condition and transplants well. Spider mites can be a problem, especially in hot, dry conditions. As a cut Christmas tree it is sometimes known for premature needle drop, however, if kept well watered (never let the truck seal over) and maintained in a cool environment it has been known to survive quite well. The addition of a good quality preservative assists in maintaining average needle retention.

Stevemy,

If you do a search under midTN abies you will see a couple threads. "Hey fir lovers in hot areas, national arboretum DC" and "conifers at the Atlanta Botanical Garden". There is some abies listed growing at those locations. The soil at the National Arboretum looked like the same crappy clay that is in my yard and their summers are plenty hot. Atlanta is as hot or hotter than here in middle TN.
I have been growing Abies nordmanniana and Abies firma for a couple years and they are fine.
Gum Tree farms in Hermatage had several waist high Abies koreana 'Horstmann's Silberlocke' grafted to firma growing in ground in full sun and they looked great. There was a guy named Robert that worked at Gum Tree that was the conifer guy but he's gone now I think.
I also heard that Don Shadow down by Wincester grows A. homolepis which I wouldn't think would do well here but evidentally does??. I think the mediterranean firs should do well with good drainage.
Resin says try Abies holophylla, A. recurvata, A. chensiensis, A. nordmanniana, A. cilicica, A. borisiiregis, and A. cephalonica. As you can see these aren't your everyday garden center items.

...Oh and I stupidly decided to give Abies balsamea 'nana' grafted to A. balsamea a shot. It has very good drainage. I bought it at Mountain Meadows out by Ashville, NC. Of course Eastern TN and Western NC where Fraser fir is native are a world away from Nashville climate wise. Bristol TN is closer to Ontario Canada than Memphis TN as the crow flies not to mention to elevation change.

...I'll let you know when the balsamea keels over. :)

Jeff

Some folks at NC State think it's more root adaptability than heat up top (in North Carolina, at least). I listed this link in a post last December, but here it is again. Do a search for "firma" as the paragraph is about mid-page.

tj

Hi all,I have abies Koreana 'cis' abies concolor 'Archers Dwarf,Abies lasiocarpa'Lopalpun'Abies Koreana'Silver show'Abies Pinsapo 'Horstman'Abies concolor 'LaVita'.All doing ok after 3 years.We get some hot humid summers here in the Philly area.Also there are christmas tree farms nearby that grow balsem firs ,douglas firs,concolor firs,Frazier firs all with no problems. Joe

Abies numidica and cephalonica died here within a month of hot Illinois weather. They were planted on well-drained and black perfect soil. I have a range of soil types on my property.... most of them being loamy clay. I have firs everywhere.

Douglas fir in Tennesee I have my concerns with. It would probably become a very ragged & ugly tree in time but for the christmas tree industry it's probably attractive when young, only. Really any Doug fir whether interior or coastal I think should, be avoided.

Abies homolepis, is a perfect candidate. Abies bornmuelleriana is the same as Normann fir, just that it is a nothospecies or something like that. It has a slightly different cone probably. Anyway, you understand.

Abies lasiocarpa should do excellent!

Balsam fir, it sure grows great here. I'd describe it growing as immacuately, without any flaws.

Canaan, perfect. Should look excellent long-term.

MR> Spruceman, Gee's grafts all the "white firs" to Canaan.
He (Gary does a lot of grafting) /they use nordmanniana for the rest.

Going a zone warmer than mine, indeed:
cilica
..all of Resin's list. For sure.

This year I planted Abies firma seedlings as well. Four bulky ones.

BARB: your question:
Where would A. firma and A.koreana be on the list when considering heat tolerance only?

answer:
Absolutely! I know Abies koreana would be an excellent candidate when considering it's use as a rootstock, too. My friends near Chicago use a lot of it for grafting koreana cultivars to it. Illinois' climate is much like the southwest, however, it rains here throughout the entire year. It's a wonderful climate to grow just about anything. It's the winters that zap plants.

Dax

Philadelphia is probably 4-5 degrees F cooler than Nashville in summer (although the humidity is probably close). That's a big difference. The Cumberland Plateau just east of Nashville runs about 3 degrees F cooler in summer and the flora is different there. Our summers go back and forth between mid to upper 90's with low humidity and mid to upper 80's with high humidity.
I do love our long springs and long autumns but July and August suck! :)

PS. all numbers in Fahrenheit sorry Resin...

Is it my imagination, or is the optimum choice of Abies rootstock still in question much more so than the other conifers? Is there more variability in Abies than other Genus? In my internet research it is hard to find information on drought tolerance. Most helpful so far has been the good ol' Sunset Garden Book, but it's species list is limited. K4's list of Christmas Trees is even better!

What is the most commonly used Abies rootstock and why?

So many questions....

Barbara

I forgot i also have abies Veitchii'Rumburk' and Abies procra'Blau Hexe'.But 2 years ago i did lose a.Koreana'Silberkugel'It got too much sun and turned yellow and died the next year. Joe