Planting in too big a pot has been my biggest problem. I stuck a grapefruit from fourwinds in a 12 inch pot and it was WAY too big. I got the plant back in March and I just pulled it out of the pot a couple of days ago and it hadn't even come close to filling it up. It's impossible to tell when to water when the roots don't fill a good portion of the pot. My tree was in the gritty mix and still lost all its leaves. I've moved it down to a 10 inch pot.

I love Four Winds, but I'd never listen to their potting soil advice. They're in California, I'm in New York. What works there won't work here.

Hello Zecosay,
Man do I need to chat with you!! You said that you use the gritty mix right? What EXACTLY do you use? I mixed a 1-1-1 mix of perlite, orchid bark, and a turface product(I had read here that the turface is the same stuff that is sold at Autozone for soaking up oil and other car fluids. I mixed it up and my original Oro is suffering. Can you offer any help to me? BTW...how is yours doing? I got a second one which seems to be doing well. I am getting new growth on that one. The original one had almost died but it started to come back for me and then when I repotted it, it didn't do so well.
Bigmario,
I am sorry. I should have helped you first. I agree with the pot size. I have lost many tropical fruit trees because I put them in pots that were WAY to big for the tree and I lost them to root rot. Now, I go with one pot size larger than the original pot. IF it is a bare rooted tree, I measure out an inch past the root ball and buy a pot that size.
Andrew

Mario, it sounds as though your trees are in a bit of a funk. Citrus can get like this either when semi-dormant in the Winter or something is bothering them in the active growing season--excessively large containers do seem to retard growth in my experience. Either transplant or cut back on waterings in the big containers. I basically use a sand-amended regular potting soil on mine. I have no idea what Tradewinds means when it warns "using dirt in a container is not advisable". The term 'Dirt' is not used in horticulture--it's called 'soil'. So are they advising the public to go more hydroponically in a 'soil-less' mix or rather telling you not to use the soil you dig out of your backyard. I think they meant the latter and not the former. For whatever reason your citrus are not ready to push active growth--transplanting as recently as July 4th is actually quite recent and they still may be sulking from the transplant. Your plants may be pushing active root growth currently before a growth spurt, so maybe just be patient at this point. Can you post a picture? Good luck!

mario:

Give it some time, roots are still getting adjusted. Sick trees need to fix the roots then the foliage. Do you see any more decline in the foliage?

andrew:

What exactly was the autozone product you used? I replied in your other thread that the stuff I used was NAPA Floor Dry #8822.

My gritty mix consists of Reptile Bark, Gran-I-Grit, and Turface. My 511 mix is pine bark, peat and NAPA floor dry #8822.

Stick with what you know has worked for the majority on this forum.

Then which ever route you decide to go, stick with that and the people that support that method...

For instance if Njoasis grows in a soil mix with sand, work with him and stick to it.
If someone here grows in Coco nut husk chips, work with them.

If many grow in the gritty mix and 5.1.1 mix, work with them.

I personally know the people at Four Winds, and have a great relationship with them, They are terrific people and yet the owner herself has commended me on my mixes having a good discussion about it. She learned a lot from me and has just started taking a look at the forums..I did direct her to the containers one too..Four Winds is encouraging anything better than the bagged soilless mixes with a majority of peat, once again..

Mike

Mario, after I posted, the thought had occured to me that your growing conditions might be different from the vast majority of us who are growing outside of the San Francisco Bay Area. So I checked with the weather of San Francisco on weather.com. Well, frankly, I was shocked by how low S.F. temperaures were (especially day max temperatures). I knew San Francisco was cool in the Summer, but the weather channel reported HIGH temperatures in the 50's for the next week--those are WINTER temperatures for my citrus. If your local temps are actually that cold, I'd have my trees positioned in the warmest microclimate I could exploit--assuming your plants are outside and not inside.

thanks guys,
for now i will be more patient and try and get pics on here. there is a guy growing in the gritty mix in the next city up the freeway from me and i like the idea of lasting longer. he has told me where to get the 3 ingredients. we have also had a record cold summer here in the bay area. fog until almost noon and low temps. that may have some to do with it too. this is a good place to vent.
Dave

Here is what gritty mix should look like with Reptile bark, Gran-I-Grit and Turface:

{{gwi:610435}}

I will be putting some bigger chunks of bark over this for increased water retention.

There is a time for action and a time for patience. Once you have fixed those things which were wrong, you are going to have to wait, in some cases for a long time, before citrus begin to rebound. In the past when I have made mistakes with citrus it has taken up to a few months for them to start growing robustly again. Take comfort in the fact that there is probably a lot more going on below the ground with the root system than above. The 5-1-1 is an excellent mix for citrus. Why not just leave them where they are until next year?

The 4 winds suggestions are probably targeted for mixes different than those that are used on this website. For instance, I disagree with keeping things on the dry side when using the 5-1-1 or gritty mix. Water displaces air, and citrus roots need air. When using these mixes that drain really well, however, even frequent watering leaves a lot of air within the mix. Whenever I have kept my citrus on the dry-side they have suffered.

Also, I would strongly recommend not using an miracle-grow fertilizing product. I am sure there are some people out there who have had good experiences, however anytime I have given my citrus mir-acid or others they have severely suffered. As I mentioned previously, I gave a calamondin to my father-in-law and warned him not to use Miracle grow. As he likes to be contrary, he gave it some despite my warning. About 2 weeks later, the tree has dropped about 80% of its leaves.

Again, have patience once you have chosen your regime. It may not be until next spring that your citrus will really start to take off.

-Brett

My sick citrus that I repotted on August '09 sat there with no activity until Feb '10. After that there were blooms and prolific leafing, little fruits etc. So, 4 weeks is a small time frame to see significant difference.
I would suggest the following:
1. Add a teaspoon or two of granular, time release citrus fertilizer with your gritty mix (make sure that the product is suitable for container grown citrus plants - i use Vigoro from Home Depot). This will be your insurance in case you are not adequately feeding with water solubles.
2. Put your citrus pots in the sunniest location you can find. If you don't have one, put them against a concrete wall (or brick wall if you have any) or on a concrete patio or against a sunny fence. This reflects heat and the citrus thrive in hotter conditions. My neighbor puts her citrus pots on a bed of white pebbles or a ceramic tile to reflect heat. That might help you if you do not have concrete patios.
3. Try foliar feeding with a weak fertilizer of Fish Emulsion once a week until you see some improvement.
You do not have to ever worry about overwatering in the summer for outside potted citrus in california. You need to watch the watering only if the temperature drops.
Good luck.

Andrew~
I've heard the stuff from Autozone isn't to reliable and breaks down. Did You test yours before using it?

Alot use a product from Nappa Auto parts which is more stable. (Nappa floor dry)

And it does hold more moisture than turface.

JoJo

Have you tried using SuperThrive? I think it is an excellent product for resurrecting plants.

Tsmith,

I respectfully have to disagree on this one...Super thrive works like someone taking a pain pill that is only made of sugar and water...By mere chance if a plant makes it, the credit is given to the product and not to the will and the strength of the plant to want to live on it's own, if culturally taken care of properly...

Mike..:-)

One lesson I've learned the hard way concerning drainage in potted citrus is to drill extra drain holes in the bottom of the pot. Even if I am using one of the black plastic nursery containers I drill at least four more holes in the bottom. For small potted olives and other extra-dry loving trees I will even drill extra holes up the side walls of the pots just to make sure that all extra water leaves the media. I'm not sure if this will work with clay pots - they tend to shatter no matter how careful you are.

Here is the product and the plant I have been treating with SP for about 2 months since I found some on hand one day...I found it never helped me in the past, and decided to give it a shot again...

Still I think it is only by the mercy of m,y hands, now the mix, and the will for it to survive that makes it hold on..

{{gwi:610438}}

{{gwi:610440}}

But for many it could be just the ST that has saved their plants from the grim reaper, and if so, then ST rules for them...

Mike..:-)

One more thing. Everyone here makes great points about being patient Bigmario..

Here is a perfect example of a citrus tree that I am taking care of for a friend that almost killed it, back in the early SPRING..

I have given it the right mix, feed it faithfully, provide tons of sunlight for it, and kept it outdoors for months...Also the poor thing was loaded with pest's and now none, Very abused..
Still after a whole summer, this is all I get? One fruit. And for that I feel lucky. Lol
It happens to all of us..I would be lucky to see it do anything else, even pop new growth until once the roots have established themselves and the plant stops rebelling...Maybe by next spring?

I am considering taking that fruit off.. Not sure what to do..

It hasn't grown one leaf or one ounce of growth...But if it is alive, then common sense would tell us the roots are probably partying underneath and have yet to share their bounty with the part above the soil...

{{gwi:610442}}

Well,
Thanks to all of you for the input. Sorry if I sounded doubting. Just trying to get it all out to other home growers. I will be patient and try and do the correct thing while waiting. I am gonna try and post pics to this post. The pic of leaves are from a 20+ year old orange tree I have in ground. Not sure what is going on with that.

In the mean time my dad wants to take me over to an Italian buddy of his house to show me his huge potted citrus. Everytime my dad comes to my house he walks over and looks at my trees. I tell him that they are of a different variety and are dormant right now and we have a good laugh. Not that he is having much better luck with his but they are sprouting again. Sure wish it would warm up here.
thanks again for all the input,
Dave
using a different photos site here is a link I hope:
http://img59.imageshack.us/g/pottedcitrusinfrontyard.jpg/

Here is a link that might be useful: Here is a link I hope

Looking at the pictures, I think you are correct about using too big a pot. I think a 3 gallon would be sufficient and be better for the tree in the long run.

So you think I should down size now? The satsuma had a couple big roots that I had to squeeze into the pot, although that pot is alot smaller than the meyer's pot.

If you are an overwaterer YES. If your mix stays wet far too long, YES. If you grow in a heavy mix, or one that holds a perched water table, one that does not allow good gas exchange, or full of fine particles that collaspe rapidly, YES.

If your growing a small plant in a big container in a gritty mix that drains well and holds no PWT, dries out quickly, drains well, and all the other benefits, then NO.
If you have wooden dowels or ways of testing if the soil mix has dried out into the root zone, for sure NO, unless you know how to tell when plants need a watering correctly..

You might be suprised how much plants like room to grow under the surface, unless of course you are aiming for Bonsai plants..

Mike

Hey, Dave! (It is Dave, right?)
I just got back from a week on the northern coast...foggy and 55°F the whole time...
well, that's not quite true, there was a 20 minute break of sun.

Patience. Roots first, then top-growth. As above, so below.

Josh

Yeah Josh it is Dave. I know we have been having some cold foggy days. Where I am in San Rafael it burns off and we get sun for a good part of the day but this morning early it was almost drizzling from the fog. Where I work we actually have a fairly good nursery although they are not citrus experts. I was walking around on my lunch and saw some fairly large trees in #7 and #5 containers so I think my new trees are fine at least till next year and as all are saying I will just be patient with the others even though I miss having the healthy satsuma I had. I guess I should post the pics of the inground orange on the other post that is just for that.
thanks again
Dave

I am going to tahoe in a week Josh for some warmer weather and some good mountain biking

Tahoe should be wonderful right now....
80°F's during the day, 40°F's during the night. Sky strewn with hard, glistening stars.
Make sure you have plenty of water. We have a hard time staying hydrated in the mountains.

Josh

I agree with those that have stressed patience. After you've been around trees for a while, and especially if you have enough of them to keep you busy, you'll lapse into thinking in 'tree time' instead of people time. Jul 4 to Aug 4 is but a blink of an eye to a tree. Concentrate on making sure you're providing the best cultural conditions you can, and your tree will respond favorably.

Al

I tried to read Al's stuff on mix and bogged down cause of the regional jargon and brands unrecognizable down here.
But he's right on using "tree time scales".

I also tried using ingredients used in the north and southeast and failed miserably. I used a west coast mix and did the same. Getting local advice is the best.

The principles that affect water retention (in the things I write about soils) are the message, not the short list of ingredients I include as the basic recipe for two different soils. There really is no list of ingredients that will work in the N,S,E,or W, but not work in one of the other areas. It's how you combine those ingredients that determines success or failure, and w/o an understanding of the principles, it's more likely you'll get it wrong than right, which is what I suspect happened in your case.

It doesn't matter to me where anyone takes their advice, but it is helpful to seek advice about soils from someone who understands soils. Just because I, or others, don't live in a desert, doesn't mean we don't understand the difficulty in keeping plants hydrated or moderating root temperatures; or because we don't live in the PNW doesn't mean we can't appreciate the need for perfect drainage. If local advice was the only advice that had value, we wouldn't be flocking to medical clinics in other states to get patched up.

I'm not saying that that local advice of someone with a thorough understanding of plant physiology and soil science can't be more valuable than someone with equal knowledge at a distance; it can be; but the simple fact that advice originates locally carries with it only the possibility that it would be better than advice from afar - not the probability.

If we consider this forum to be a community, we can quickly see there are those whose advice on certain matters is very likely to be solid and factual. At the same time, there are always those folks whose advice we are not so sure about. Is it wise to heed only the advice of those that consider the citrus forum to be their 'home forum', or is better to give more consideration to those that are obviously well-versed in the topic and illustrate an understanding of the OP's needs? What if, on these forums, you limited yourself to accepting advice only from those in your town, or state?

I think we handcuff ourselves with the assertion that local advice is superlative. I would say that more often than not, it isn't. Just a quick consideration of the numbers will show there are fewer people in your town or state qualified to answer your most difficult questions than there are in the whole of the US. When you ask a question here, the odds overwhelmingly favor the best advice as coming from somewhere not local.

Al

Now I am not trying to get anyone upset. I think we should all respect Al's knowledge as it has bailed a lot of people out of trouble with potted citrus and I am trying it. Maybe wrong at first but trying to get it right. I have a 5.1.1 mix I mixed up and it drains super fast but seems to be staying damp. If I dig a piece of bark from a few inches down I can squeeze water out of it by pinching it. I used 5 micro bark, 1 pummice, and 1/2 peat 1/2 perlite but I did not screen. I did wash the pummice. All that work and thinking brings me to my next thought:

I have heard all the rants about nurserys and growers just interested in selling trees and not in long term care. But please explaing the trees I see at nurserys that are in big and I mean 4'x 4' wood boxes. They had to start as small trees and grow to these. I just wonder what soil they are using to do this. Maybe I just don't understand the big picture.
{{gwi:610446}}

{{gwi:610450}}

{{gwi:610453}}

Nursery ops are interested in growing a tree to a saleable size in as short a time as possible and with the least amount of expense. It happens that 'rapid growth' and 'least expense' are usually not on the same page, so some compromises need to be made. These compromises usually depend on the course the nurseryman sees as leading to the most profit. Sometimes he will choose a soil that doesn't offer maximum growth, but does offer the least amount of time expended in watering/fertilizing. If he feels it is to his advantage to grow in a soil that requires watering only every other day, as opposed to a soil that provides better growth but needs watering twice each day, he'll make that decision based on $s. You and I are in much the same situation, but rather than $s hanging in the balance, it's our convenience. Undoubtedly, you can achieve much better growth in a soil that is extremely porous, but you have to consider that to squeeze the extra growth out of the plant you might need to water twice each day. I grow in very porous soils, but still I compromise. When I pot a plant, I think ahead and use a soil and container size that will require me to water no more than once each day when the planting has matured. That seems to fit me well, because I have so many plants I need to make the watering rounds every day anyway, so it's no problem to have to water all or a part of them on the rounds.

It's too labor intense to grow trees for retail in wooden boxes. They would have been field grown and dug with a (tree) spade & placed in the box as a temporary home. I commonly see large B&B trees for sale in wooden boxes.

The tree pictured above is probably somewhat over-potted in the soil you mixed, which means you'll need to be careful about your watering - at least until the container is fully colonized with roots. Make sure your plant needs water - don't guess. Use the wood dowel & don't water until it comes out dry after being stuck deep into the container. When you water, saturate the soil, then tilt the container at a steep angle until it stops draining. This will drain a considerable amount of water that would not have drained from a level container. A wick through the drain hole would also help drain even more water.

Are you fertilizing? With what/how often? Did you add lime when you made the soil?

Al

Thanks Al,
I am using the FP at the maintenance dose and I gave them all some dynamite all purpose that seemed to be closest to the ratio eveyone talks about. And a fellow citrus grower who is using ur gritty mix suggested it. His screen name is brettay and he lives the next town north of me. I did lime the soil as directed. I can not get a wick in the pots now as they are too heavy and have screen at holes. The times I did water it ran out of pots quickly. Did the mix look ok to you?
thanks
Dave
here is the satsuma in a smaller pot same mix:{{gwi:610456}}

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The mix looked ok, but with that large of a pot, and the way you described making it, I'm pretty sure you have some perched water at the bottom. If you're careful about your watering until the plant gets its feet under it, you should be ok. You checked for & corrected any root rot when you repotted - yes?

Al

Corrected??
I just cut off the ugliest of the roots. I think maybe I should just start over and put the ill trees in the compost pick-up can. Too many what ifs for me to handle.
oh boy::(

No guts - no glory. Hang in there, Big Guy! ;o)

Al

Ok,
I will wait and see once the temp here gets over 68-70. Supose to change next week.
well put Al
Dave

Dave, do go along with your e-mail you sent me, and this post you stated above, I must say that Al is right on..

I am not afraid to come here and admit that he has been my mentor and the one who taught me everything I need to know about the mixes that most here are benefitting from.
I give him and others whom have supported me all the credit in my ability to be successful for the first time in years, if ever with citrus, and the credit to myself for applying the knowledge and the skills taught me..

You will just hear a repeated answer is I post on this one..

Sorry for those that have a problem with this very helpful man, and how they feel about those that appreciate what he has taught, and are willing to take the time to share their success attributed to him to help others..They know who they are..

It is good to see most here are very appreciative and in tune with those that truly care about others and their plants...It is good to see people full of kind words and helpful suggestions and those who are willing to help others instead of coming here and jabbing, making innuendoes about, and insulting those with the desire to spend many days, countless of hours to help others be great at growing these very difficult trees, especially for us northerners..

You will get the mastery over these plants Dave as I have...

Mike