Mary, what I would do is put up a fence to protect your front yard, leaving at least 2-3 feet of dirt on the outside of the fence. Then I would plant roses along the fence. If you use climbing roses, they can be trained sort of horizontally along the fence, and your "fence" will soon be way taller than 42 inches! Or, if you would rather, you could put the fence on the lot line, and plant the roses behind it. Is there sidewalk beyond your lot line? If there is, putting the roses behind the fence might be better (less worry about the roses trying to eat the passers-by).

I would not dig up any of the roses in the back yard if they are happy. Once you get the fence up in the front, I'll bet you will feel way happier about your privacy, even with a short fence.

Then, after we see PICTURES of your front yard and the fence, we can advise you on what roses to grow on it. You might want all of one kind, which in the case of large climbers might only mean 2-3 plants, depending on the length of your fence. Or, you might want a hedge of lower growing roses.

Re your current front garden rose plantings, what roses do you have planted there now? Can't advise on growth habits without knowing which roses you already have planted. Please DO post a picture - many many people have done that on here to get help. Hard to help when we cannot see what you are talking about.

We have all, I am sure, planted new beds at one time or another and then been unhappy with how they look with the itty-bitty roses. I have, I know. That phase is short.

Jackie

'Crepuscule' made a nice free-standing bush here, approx. 6'h x 8'w at 7 years in the ground, at which time I sadly lost it to oak root fungus. From what I have seen, I think 'Crepuscule' would be more manageable for that purpose than 'Lamarque', which I know is a real house-eater in Oakland (just go look at the one in Morcom Park, on the huge trellis halfway up the hill -- they've had to do major pruning just to keep it on that support). Livermore is much warmer than Oakland, though, and I'm not sure how that might affect 'Crepuscule'.

Thanks to you both.

Jackie, I have Monsieur Tillier, Marie Van Houtte, Madame Berkeley, Robin Hood, Carefree Delight and some icebergs in the front. The teas are spaced around 6 feet apart. The idea was to have a row of teas to provide privacy and color. I knew when I planted that these would take time, so I added fillers (verbena and guara). But it's looking pretty sparse out there, and I'm not liking the lack of privacy when I go out to weed, etc. I really like the idea of putting in a fence like you suggested. I could move the teas to the back or side yards if the fence makes too much shade. My three Robin Hood roses were meant to form a hedge along my neighbor's property. These I can move as they're getting sprayed by his sprinkler every morning. No pm though! I love these roses so far, and they might be good candidates for a fence. I originally thought 42" wouldn't do much for privacy, but I'm definitely reconsidering that. There isn't a sidewalk/walkway out front. People here often plant up to the street, though they're not supposed to ;) Maybe I could put the fence 8 feet back with the roses in front. The fence would be need to be around 28 feet wide, so two or three roses might do it.

Catspa, I'm sorry to hear about your Crepuscule. The size seems perfect, and I love the color. I've seen it listed as a good choice for my area, so it's definitely a candidate. I was just at Morcom last week, but most of the old roses are unlabeled which is difficult for this novice. I might know the one you mean, though.

Have you seen the rose Broomfield Abundance?

Is sold in Aus as climbing Cecile Brunner (which it definitely is not). I've seen it grown as a lovely clipped screen. I've also seen crepuscule and mutabilis clipped in a simmilar way.

Adam, the rose you are talking about is unfortunately still being sold under the name 'Bloomfield Abundance', even though DNA analysis has PROVED that is some sort of sport of Cecile Brunner. You are correct that it is not the climber, of course, but is now being called 'Spray Cecile Brunner', because it is a bush which sends up tall sprays of bloom at the top.

The real 'Bloomfield Abundance' was evidently lost decades ago, and the CB sport took its place in commerce. However, Fred Boutin may have just recently found the actual, true 'Bloomfield Abundance' - see HMF for pictures. Don't look at the old pics - they are mostly CB, but the new pictures are of the rose thought to be the real BA.

Sorry for the digression, but I think that sort of thing is interesting. I do agree with you that either of the bush forms of CB (the original, smaller bush or Spray CB) could be clipped into a nice hedge.

Jackie

I'm surprised to learn that Oakland has a 42 inch front yard fence rule. That's ignored a lot here in East Oakland.

Thanks everyone.

Hi Rbehs, I only learned about the fence requirement recently. Here's a local article about East Oakland http://oaklandvoices.us/fencing-off-a-neighborhoods-sense-of-community/ Funny I noticed when I was driving in the hills that fences are short in Oakland but suddenly get huge after crossing the border to Berkeley.

I love Cecile Brunner. I have a baby bush and a mature one which came with the house

Ingrid, I love Mutabilis! My 6 month old plant from ARE is already 4 feet tall and totally healthy. It looks more like a standard with two long bare canes and very bushy on top. Will definitely consider your idea. Btw, I've admired pictures of your beautiful garden as I've researched roses on these forums.

I am shy but mostly embarrassed about my garden. You'll see why. The first photo shows all the native clarkia going bonkers in June. Crazy english cottage garden.

Then I went to England for a few weeks. All the annuals had finished and now it looks like this

Thanks for the pics! I have a side garden that looks like that, except I have hardly any filler plants, and the baby roses are all in deer cages because we get visited by a doe with one fawn every night. She carefully prunes anything which is sticking out of the cages - your front garden looks MUCH better than my side garden! I would wait until at least next Spring ( or the following Spring) to make any decisions about the roses - you don't know what they will do in our climate until they do it. A front fence will contribute greatly to your happiness in the meanwhile.

Jackie

Your garden is beautiful, but it actually makes me feel worse about my own yard. If your is "bad", I hate to think what others would think of mine. Probably why my pics are few and far between for the time being. I love that Clarkia!

Mary, love your posting. I too am starting at a new location. I have a few evergreens like Wilma Goldcrest and a few Olives and Arizona cypress adding some year round structure and green into the mix. I also put two Hollywood Juniper Torulosa at the entry. I think they can "bring the room together" along with some hardscape. I think some white and blue and lavender can blend well too. You have a great start!

I agree with the idea of a fence with roses on the inside; your Teas will get taller than 42" and provide more privacy.

Another fan of the clarkia,

Virginia

From experience, I recommend you turn to a proper distraction - which kind of gravel? what color, what consistency? Should there be several types? - then turn around. Your small roses will be midsize and a moment later large.

Thanks, everyone. I'm feeling so much better about this. Adding a fence will make a huge difference in terms of privacy, structure, etc. It'll be much easier to figure out plantings once the bones are in place. I'm thinking of going with some type of wood lattice like this but shorter http://rosenotes.typepad.com/.a/6a010535bf3807970c01157016e5e2970b-pi

Not sure about hardscaping. Reclaimed brick if I can afford it.

Agreed that roses behind the fence is probably best, though people only walk on this part of my property to relieve their dogs. A few little pricks might be a good deterrent ;) But nothing too thorny- I'm an animal lover.

Vaporvac, the clarkia phase was great. It's the current phase that gets me down. I assure you it looks much worse in person!!! Our gardens all have their difficult phases, and I'm sure yours is beautiful. We tend to be our own worst critics, right? Clarkia is really easy where I live- drought tolerant, clay tolerant, etc. It only lasts for a month or two, but you'll get buckets of cut flowers.

Jackie, your gardens are an inspiration! How nice of the deer to help you. My current house is just below deer territory, but they've pruned for me many years in the past.

Sheila, I love your suggestions. Hope your new garden is coming along nicely. I seem to remember you planted a bunch of teas? Very exciting!

My goodness, I was expecting something dire; that's not bad at all. I think it's going to be fabulous. If you don't like Mutabilis for this purpose, a row of gorgeous, large tea roses would also be spectacular.

Mary, I too, was expecting a picture that would make me feel better about the state of my own garden:) You certainly have nothing to be ashamed of. Your front yard is a work in progress. I have seen front yards that don't look half that nice, and those people considered it good(and finished). With the drought in CA, ugly front yards are almost becoming the norm around here. Yours is far from ugly, AND your working to improve it. I've found that people on this forum are very friendly and eager to help. They've been better than any book or article because my specific questions get answered, for my specific climate, rose, soil, yard, etc.... I love this place! It helps everyone give better advice when they can get a visual.

I think a fence with big tea(or climbing) roses planted on the inside would be lovely. They will grow up and over the fence, cascading down on the street side. I'm betting the fence won't even be visible once the roses really grow in. Having the roses inside your fence also means more of your rose care can be done from the more private side of the fence. I'm not all that fond of being watched as I go about my gardening. I like to wear my junkiest clothes for gardening.

The clarkia looked great. The good thing about them is the way they self seed and you get a ton of fresh plants next spring. I always look forward to seeing them return. Is the white flower on the right a clarkia as well? I had a beautiful white one 2 years ago, but for some reason I didn't get any white seedlings this past spring. They do make great cut flowers though, so it's possible that I didn't leave much on the plant to produce seed.

How about a picture of your backyard now? We all love pictures. I have both Felicia and Cornelia. I'm debating about where to place Cornelia and its outgrowing its container. Time to make up my mind! Seeing yours might help me out:) Lisa

Here is a suggestion for your garden. Put in the fence with the roses inside it just as you are considering. Then outside the fence plant selections from Lauren Springer's He!!strip Garden suggestions, http://www.sunset.com/garden/landscaping-design/parking-strip-garden. They do well with low care and the reflected heat generated by a sidewalk. The advantages of this approach are several. First of all, it looks good with a minimum of care. Second, it provides contrast to the roses. Third, it reduces monoculture. Gardens of mainly one plant type are far more susceptible to disease. Fourth and finally, they are likely to be at their best when your roses are "resting".

Ms Springer has written several books since that article in Fine Gardening a couple of decades ago. The Undaunted Garden is the one that followed shortly after the article. It has information we don't need - a lot of winter hardiness since she is in Colorado - but also tough plants that stand up to heat and drought.

Rosefolly

I really appreciate the kind words and suggestions, everyone! Going to try to squeeze in some gardening and assessing before work today.

Rosefolly- this is timely. I was just trying to come up with ideas for new companion plants. I've tried quite a few from the list you provided- some successfully, some not- but I'm always on the hunt for good drought tolerant perennials. . At the moment, there are two types of verbena, a dwarf guara, and ceanothus 'Carmel Creeper" at the front of the bed. Also weeds that I can't keep up with. I might rip it all out to install a walkway. I don't have a sidewalk; just plantings and mulch up to the street. Either way, I want something nice but low maintenance in front of the roses.

Lisa, the white clarkia is this one https://www.anniesannuals.com/plants/view/?id=1950 This was the first year I tried it, and hoping it comes back. The photos below are my backyard before roses and after. Cornelia is towards the back of the bed on the left hand side. There's a fence in the distance and some lights on poles. The lights are where my property ends. Cornelia gets morning sun/afternoon shade and seems pretty happy so far. Sorry for the blurry images. You might spot my garden assistant in there ;)

Every garden is vastly improved with that kind of "helper". Your back yard is gorgeous without and with roses and I can tell you're an experienced gardener. It's going to be very exciting to see your front yard rose project. I hope you'll keep us updated here, with pictures of course!

I understand your pain . . .

It would probably be possible to buy mature plants, and have them installed ... but it would be pricey as all getout.

At another site, there was a discussion recently of "overplanting" -- and I have seen myself how mature roses can come to fill more space than you ever imagined.

One thing you might to is plant temporary "filler" plants, which can go away when the roses grow larger.

Here is an example of a small public rose garden which accommodates almost too many roses for the site. It's shown in winter, and in another year, in springtime.

I laid this garden out in 1994, and I did not then perfectly understand just HOW large they would become. Had I been more experienced, I could have used a few fewer roses. But as it was, we used "filler plants" in those first 3-4 years, because it looked so darned BARE.

So, I guess what I'm saying is -- the roses WILL grow up. All of these are WAY over the 5-ft.-high top of my head. Meanwhile, filler plants might help.

Thanks, Jeri. That garden is stunning! The next step is a good path like what you have above. Right now I just have messy stepping stones which I plan to replace with brick. And I'm going to move the path to the center of the yard so the space will be divided up better. I want a rose path like that! Ingrid has something similar with her tea roses. But until then, I'm hoping a better structure and better fillers will help compensate for the bareness.

Incidentally, I'm finally getting Grandmother's Hat! It's been hard to track down, but Annie's Annuals has restocked it. I'm excited about that rose.

A general question- will my year old roses be set back quite a bit if I move them this winter? I'll have to transplant a couple if I move the path, but hope not to sacrifice too much growth rate.

Winter is a good time to move them in our mild winter climate, and year old plants will take it in stride. When they get a bit older it is more of a shock to them.

Here's a Denise Dering design that gets talked about a lot on Houzz, because it's beautiful. I like the way the roses peak out through the fence.

I agree with Rosefolly. Winter in CA is a good time to move roses. I figure the optimal time (in my coastal SoCal garden) is right around Christmas time.

As to that fence effect -- some people have done that here, and it looks really nice. But they've used Iceberg, which I don't think is as effective against the white pickets as the pink one shown above is.

But it'd be wise to select carefully. You don't want roses that are going to thrust out their prickly arms and snag passing pedestrians. :-)