Hi cfox. You brought up a very interesting and important point with all possible details im my view since im not expert. So looking forward to hear from some citrus detective who can find out the answer. 2.5 or 3 months ago i got my meyer lemon and 1 month a go found similar signs and then i gave fertilizer and bit extra regular water and still no change. But at the same time other leaves are normal and no more leaf is changing. I think one should wait bit longer before going for next treatment. But if plant is getting sick and sad day by day then one should do his best to save it.

This happened to me with the oldest leaves falling off after slowly turning yellow. It's the plants way of growing continuously, it slowly takes the energy out of the old and puts it into the new. They store energy in their leaves and branches.

So what I did was increase the amount of fertilizer, and it stopped the leaf drop and made it grow more. Check the color of the new growth and look for deficiencies then, but remember all new growth is relatively lighter in color and will darken with age. Just my two cents!

Looks like the beginnings of Manganese deficiency, which most often occurs in acid soils; but can also appear in higher pH soils when combined with cold weather/cold roots.

I'm not sure where I remember reading that cedar could pose problems, due to leaching, I'm no expert, So please don't take my word for it, just a thought.
I have had good luck with Foliar application of trace every so often, in addition to the FP, my plants seem happy. for now.
I'm sure others will have some insights.

good luck!!

Thanks for the insight so far! I forgot to mention I did check the pH of the soil, which rested at about 6.5. However, the pH meter is one of those crappy non-digital ones that I don't actually know if I can trust all the way!

Manganese deficiency, that was my second guess actually - I'm reading that I fix that by adding Epsom salts to the plant. How much? I see you can either put it in the soil or as a foliar spray. I can pick some up at the pharmacy tomorrow, but I've no idea how much to use. I should really look into Trace, too.

If it is a different deficiency rather than Manganese, will the Epsom salts hurt it?

This post was edited by cfox248 on Tue, Jul 15, 14 at 20:33

The Trace I use is: Southern Ag "Chalated Citrus Spray" it comes in a small little bottle.

it has Manganese. It should be available at any Big Box like Hd, Lowes.

I mix it according to directions and

I add a tiny bit of soap to help it stick to the leaves.

I probably spray more often than necessary but it helps clear my mind at the end of a long day, and my plants don't seem to mind.

I would try that before Epsom salts and look into the cedar info. I know it has certain anti fungal properties that could be somehow make it less than ideal as a soil ingredient for container plants.

Good luck!! Please keep us posted.

What kind of soil did you use?
What have the temps been like?
Is it in FULL HOT sun, or partial?

If it is in a free draining mix, even one with lot's of peat, the rain should not cause root rot..Rain keeps your mix evenly moist and the amount of light your tree gets will correct a moist mix any way.

If you have uses cedar chips and or that stuff from 4Winds, I would repot...As those chips are breaking down, quite rapidly I might add in this moist warm weather, they are robbing your tree of nitrogen and possibly burning your fine hair roots that take up nutrients...

Correct the soil mix, and I'll bet you will have one happy camper using just Foliage Pro as your fertilizer...Can you possibly add a slow release to make up for loss of fertilizer during rains and if you should forget to feed on a weekly basis or at evert watering?

No need for Epsom Salts and single isolated nutrients...Foliage Pro will do the job for you..That's why you paid an arm and a leg for it)

Don't be afraid to transplant now if you are getting active growth since since that mix will do more harm than good way before the cooler weather sets in..

And you have that tree in a very hot sunny spot, remove it for a week or two into dabbled sun or early or late afternoon direct sun to see if it makes a difference, with or without a transplanting..

I'm unconvinced it's the cedar causing an issue after a bit of googling. There's a lot of threads that mention it, and even FourWinds says to amend the soil with "Cedar or redwood" shavings on their website. I did google it quick before I bought it, but this is a good confirmation. I believe when it was mentioned in my other thread, it was that the nitrogen would be screwed up by the breakdown of the cedar - but I believe that happens with any shavings, no? Pine included?

If there's a way I can make my own Trace-like spray (like with epsom) I would do that first - due to a few unfortunate circumstances, I'm really really REALLY low on money until next month. I can buy some then, but until I can I'll have to make do with the alternative.

Mike, we posted at the same time! I'll answer your questions:

Black Gold soil, amended with a lot of perlite and the redwood and cedar mentioned. Will it kill the new sprouts if I transplant? It literally JUST got established enough in the pot for me to un-sake it. I would put it into a mix with pine bark instead. Can I just pop it out and pop it in a new mix without disturbing the roots, or do I have to shake out all the old stuff? And yes, full hot sun when we get it. It's been rainy, but it's still a Minnesota summer. I'd hate to lose the new sprouts that are FINALLY popping out.

Cedar is specifically mentioned as an okay amendment on Four Winds website. I wonder why if it'll just cause problems? There's SO much stuff I'm reading that says to use cedar to amend soil once I google it. How conflicting. I will mix up a new soil batch this weekend, all my mix stuff is down at my mothers house. I'll keep an eye on the Moro and see if flushing and fertilizing did any good for it.

This post was edited by cfox248 on Tue, Jul 15, 14 at 22:17

cfox, I don't think Mike means that cedar, per say, is the issue. It is more likely the size of the chips that would be of concern. The smaller the chips, the faster they break down, causing compaction, lack of aeration and the breakdown process will rob the tree of available nitrogen. There are some very experienced container citrus growers I know that use cedar with good success. Just watch your potting medium to make sure it's not breaking down too fast. I would fertilize with full strength Foliage Pro, and I would make sure your potting medium is well draining. I would also consider adding a slow release fertilizer like Osmocote Plus. This should help alleviate your chlorosis.

Patty S.

Oh! That makes much more sense. The pieces aren't small, per se, but they're shavings so they're thin. the Redwood pieces were small but there was a pitiful amount compared to the rest of the soil mix, a few cups maybe in a ten gallon pot. I will take a look tomorrow and see how the soil looks a few inches under. It still drains very freely, but if it looks like it needs to change I will change it.

My Meyer is in the same mix, planted in it after bringing it from the brink of death (and now has dozens of new shoots on the sad bare branches!) and is not having the same problem as the Moro, if that makes a difference, but I also believe I've fertilized it a wee bit more. It also doesn't have as big a root system.

I will check it out when I get up tomorrow and it's light out again. Either way I can do nothing until I go back to my mother's house this weekend so I'll see how it does until Sunday, if my fertilizing and whatnot today has any effect.

Okay - shavings equal "small", as in, they will break down rapidly. That was Mike's point. You want to use bark chips. Cedar is fine, but chips help to keep the soil aerated, and will break down much more slowly. You won't need to replace your potting medium nearly as fast. I use a reptile bark or an orchid bark (depending on where I am at the time to buy the stuff). It could just be compaction that is causing the issue, and every tree will behave a bit differently, depending on its state of growth.

Patty S.

cfox,

Epsom salt is Magnesium sulfate; no manganese in there.
Citrus need Mg; but your photos don't show Mg deficiency

Okay - I will transplant my poor Orange tree. I can handle the loss of buds, I guess. I'm just going to hope it's not too much a shock and it can bounce back and still give me a nice new growth flush.

Johnmerr, you're correct, I must have misread. When I google manganese deficiencies I get a lot of info about Mg too, it gets confusing. I will try the repotting followed by another shot of fertilizer and see where that gets me, if anything I can pick up a foliar spray if I think I need it.

Thanks again everyone! I really do appreciate it!

Here's a link that I use constantly; I have posted it before, but it merits posting again. It is a bit academic and sometimes difficult to follow; but it gives anyone who wishes to do so information about where to learn/see more.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Mineral Nutrition of Citrus

Great advice given.
How often are you fertilizing?

Josh

I fertilize every two weeks with full strength Foliage Pro. And thanks for the Citrus mineral nutrition link, I've got it bookmarked!

I repotted today. Dumped the old stuff and mixed up a batch of Black Diamond soil which I amended very heavily with pine nuggets and perlite. Drains very well. Pics below... It's really hard to get a feel of it since a lot of the bark blends with the soil, but it's lighter than the old stuff was and that was pretty light already. Updated pic of the whole tree, too. The roots are a bit funky in the sense that all the thicker ones go straight down a few inches before flaring out to the smaller roots, so it makes it a bit unstable. It had literally just gotten established enough for me to remove the support stake... and after today, back in it went! Forgot to bring my fetrilizer home with the tree but it will get a fertilizing on Sunday when I bring it back home. When I took it out the old stuff was so nice and light I just tapped the roots a bit to get all of it out, so I'm hoping the new growth on the tree stays... Minimal root disturbance.

Pics:
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This post was edited by cfox248 on Fri, Jul 18, 14 at 20:23

Okay, so here's a question.

I repotted my orange tree on Thursday. I gave it a shot of fertilizer Sunday when I got back home. It didn't seem too upset by the repot, but it does not look any better and in fact is still yellowing.

However, it SEEMS that it's only the leaves that already showed some yellow on them that continued to yellow. I've pulled off the worse of them to better monitor (They came off really easily). Do the leaves that are damaged and yellowing end up dying regardless? I guess I was expecting them to green back up. Just trying to figure out if something else is going on. I couldn't' imagine what, though - it's in perfect draining soil and nice sun. I'm not over watering for sure, and I don't think I'm underwatering. My lemon tree gets all the same treatment and is fine.

do I just need to give it a few days? the leaves that were starting to yellow - is it normal that they continued to yellow instead of improving with the change? Should I just pull off any yellowing leaves? I'm almost tempted to just flat out cut off the branch that's yellowing but I won't go quite that far, haha.

The leaves may continue to yellow, then drop off, to be followed by new leaves pushing out at those nodes. More photos will help. I would just continue watering well. Use 1/2 strength fertilizer to allow the roots to recover and not burn. Stop pulling off leaves. Do NOT prune any branches off - nodes will revive themselves, but not if you remove them!

Patty S.

Well, I posted a lengthy post and the system erased it.

I wanted to let you know my experiences with citrus. Transplanting and Not Feeding for a while until the tree acclimates to the new pot. Please understand that this shock is not good for any plant. Just give it time.

Also because of the product Dynamite - my 3 potted Mango
trees have come alive. They were well taken care of (feeding, etc), but after 2 years in pots, they were suffering and not producing.
A small grower recommended Dyamite which is Florikan in smaller containers.
It has done amazing things to my mangoes. Now my mangoes have Beautiful new leaves with new flowering stems with mangoes.
After reading I learned that this product is able to release
nutrients that have never been able to be released into the soil. I read that part of this product is made by NASA. What it has done to my potted Mangoes is anything but amazing. I don't have to risk putting them into the ground.
I don't know the nutrient transference for citrus, 24,24,24 or 12,12, 12, but maybe someone else does. I don't even know what I am using since the grower gave me a baggie 1/2 full to use. I am now putting it on all my plants.
It feeds for 9 mos. so you don't have to worry about when and how to do it.
The least expensive place I have found to purchase is Home Depot online and have it shipped to their nearest store to save on shipping.
I wish I hadn't, but I foliar fed by citrus trees with Epson salts because one had yellow leaves. Well I am glad I didn't kill it, but it has no fruit. I wrecked the fruit until next year. I a not for foliar feeding anymore.
Place all fertilizer somewhat away from the trunk and all mulch away from the trunk.
6 or more hours of sun everyday.
I do have a grapefruit in a pot and fed with Dynamite. It is recovering from other fertilizer applications. It has only 1 grapefruit, but I am hoping that with this new therapy, it will really produce next year.
I use Sta-Green garden soil with Perlite added. It works for all plants for me. Never Miracle gro. Their soil is awful and their plant food kills earth worms.
Several plants I have bought lately have been suffering for lack of water. No matter how much you would water, you couldn't help. Finally I tore into the root system and found nothing but very small pieces of bark. WHAT !! I gently tore this apart and used my potting soil to replace this mess. I believe this cheap bark soil is what the nurseries may be going to.
I hope all is well with your citrus.
I just wanted to share my sort of length experience working with my citrus.

Carol
.

Okay, more photos - can do! It looks nice and green now because I pulled off the yellow ones. I didn't pull any that gave any resistance, the ones I ended up pulling were the ones that would have been knocked off by a spray from the hose. There IS small green nodes up and down the trunk that really look like they want to grow, and a little sprout on one of the branched a few millimeters long that hasn't grown any longer. Here's pics: I took some in the sun, some in the shade just to get a better idea of what's what. Sometimes coloring problems can hide in bright sunlight, or shade, etc - makes them harder to see. Most of the tree looks amazing and healthy - like I mentioned before the yellowing started at the lowermost leaves, and the ones growing right off of the trunk were affected first. It kind of radiated out, which is why the outermost looks amazing and the inner ones close to the trunk do not.

I haven't heard of Dynamite, but I wouldn't be opposed to using it. I currently use Foliage Pro like a majority of people here. I couldn't pick up anything else till next month, but if it's recommended I wouldn't be opposed to trying it.

Also, there's not as much perlite as it seems in the picture (makes it look like it's 80% perlite!) It tends to come to the surface after watering. The pics I posted of the repotting process shows the mix better.

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Are you sure you are getting enough sun. I don't worry about rain on my citrus, I love it. Sun is the main thing.

Carol

It sits right off the porch you see in the picture on the south facing side of the house. It gets as much sun as it can get all day. Yep, I'm sure it's getting enough sun. :)

All you need is a

Good soilless draining mix

A good amount of sunlight

Warm weather

And a fertilizer that provides the nutrients they need in a well balanced formula, consistently...

If you don't plan on fertilizing CONSISTENTLY, then that is where the slow release comes in, but not needed if using Foliage Pro on a regular basis..

Now, here's what concerns me..Have you ever checked to see if your watering solution is acidic enough to provide the nutrients your trees need..That's exactly what happens to my trees when they are not available because of pH issues...

Patty was right, I was thinking about the shavings which are a very poor choice...It seems to me you have had many things working agaignst the green healthy leaves you desire..Hopefully this helps..

You say you are picking off the leaves that would fall off if you hit them with a water from the hose? I suppose that's ok. but as Patty said, I would let them fall off naturally....

MIke

The pH, when I tested it before repotting, is at 6.5 and right now (I just went out and checked) it's still right at 6.5 on a non-digital meter. (I really need some good digital ones...) From what I've read 6.5 is within range for citrus, yes?

I will also stop picking off leaves! It was frustrating me to see them getting more and more yellow, and was making it hard to tell if the overall tree was getting better or worse.

I suppose I'll just keep an eye on it then and trust that I've done everything I can to reverse it! It's in wonderful draining soil now with pine nuggets instead of shavings, and in the full sunlight outside. My Meyer is still in the shavings, but is doing great so I will wait to repot until after the massive growth flush its putting out right now. (It's also got a really small root system which might have to do with it). If it starts to look up really it seems the soil was my problem (Soil leading to nutrient problems).

I've been meaning to get some pH Down for a few other plants I've got that like slight acidity, but it's not in the budget till next month. If 6.5 is too high I can amend that a bit. It IS on an analog pH meter so who knows how much you can trust those.

I'll keep you all updated! Thanks a TON for everyone's help. I always feel like my questions are stupid, but everyone always indulges me and answers anyways. We all start learning somewhere I suppose. I'm slowly getting to the point where I can actually start answering questions instead of being the one asking them all ;)

I think your tree looks just fine! Remember, it's going to have some transplant shock, perfectly normal. Just continue treating it well. Water appropriately. Your pH is just fine, perfectly good. Citrus like the pH in the neutral to very slightly acidic side, so 6.5 is actually dead on perfect. The are NOT "acid loving plants", this seems to be a myth that is continually perpetuated, and has no basis in truth whatsoever. Otherwise, we'd never be able to grow the millions of acres of commercial citrus in the state of California. Mike's water is very alkaline, so for Mike, he finds he needs to reduce his pH, and he has the photos to prove it. My municipal water is probably around 7.5 or so, and my citrus do just fine with that, both container and in ground. It's getting lots of great sunshine and fertilizer. It will do just fine :-) There is such a thing as too much fretting, lol! Your tree looks wonderful, don't worry, be happy. And, your questions are not stupid, it's how we all learn. We all started in the exact same place :-)

Patty S.

Still looking a bit more yellow today. Just going to cross my fingers that it'll even itself out and keep doing what I've been doing. Maybe a touch of transplant shock, too. There's SO MANY nodes that look like they're just waiting to explode in growth, but they're not doing much! I guess I'll throw an update on here next week and see how it's doing then.

Hi Cfox..I did notice you were not sure your test meter was a good digital one..If it is, that should be fine, although vinegar in your watering solution at 1 tablespoon per gallon would not hurt a fly, if anything improve the overall health of your trees...

I would not worry about your tree since now that I can see pics, it does look just fine...
It should correct itself if provided the 4 major needs as I addressed above..

By the way, if Patty is saying her water is that high in pH and it is just fine, I sometimes wonder if there is something else in our tap water causing other issues..

Have you ever tried just using collected rain water for an experiment? ALL of my plants watered with rain waer always do better than those with tap, even my citrus...

Makes me wonder...

MIke

I use rainwater when I can, but it hasn't rained here in a while and I have no way of collecting it other than my watering can underneath the gutter thing. I get some when it rains and it usually does go on my citrus trees. It rained and rained for a while in spring, and that's how it got watered for a while till it dried up. Now it comes from the hose and with the new soil mix it needs water every day or every other day (depending on the temp and sunniness). Next time I will add a bit of vinegar, like you said it can't hurt.

Yes. Rain water can be a challenge for some parts of the country for sure. A

It would be ideal if that is all I could. When all else , give vinegar a shot and see what your trees look like after a couple of months. You might be surprised. I do have friends that use it that live in places like California and they will say it makes a huge difference. I do know that four winds acidified their water and I always wonder why? They do deliver the greenest trees I have ever seen and it was the key grower there that told me to use vinegar when nothing else would green up my trees. Thank god

Mike

Definitely getting worse. Stormed last night (It got a good drink of rainwater) and it knocked out a ton of leaves. More are turning yellow, and rather quickly too. I'm not going to give up on it - at this point I don't know what else I can do, I'm giving it everything it could possibly need. Just going to keep watering and keep attentive to it and hope it is a case of "It's going to get worse before it gets better."

In all of this. I can't remember if you ever mentioned what the roots looked like. We're they almost white and did your plant have a good root mass?

Mike

I did check the roots for rot, and they were very healthy and quite large. It was nice and easy to shake out all the excess substrate from the roots, since even though I was using cedar shavings it was very well draining. There's a picture that shows them at least a little bit in the repotting post I made above. The orange tree has always had fantastic roots (my meyer has the teensiest root ball ever).

I'm tempted to start fresh with a new Meyer lemon and a new Moro blood orange, but there's no way I can afford two new trees! Will have to keep fighting for the two I've got. I don't expect any kind of fruit any time soon, sadly.

Cfox. That's great. Yes I do see. Then your tree will make a good comeback because of such a nice root mass. If it was rotted in any way, I would of worried a bit.

Try the vinegar and see what happens. It won't hurt. )

Mine always did what your did, exactly. I am not saying it is the solution , but I wouldn't rule out trying. You have tried everything else. Every time you water use a tablespoon a gallon.
See if your trees turns more green and gets healthier.

Mike

So, some bad news and some good news. The bad news is the Moro continued to lose leaves, and over half the lower part of the tree is bare, and some entire branches are bare. I did add some vinegar to the water when I had to use tapwater, I've been using rainwater as much as I can but it needs to be watered every day so that's hard!

The good news is it seems to have stopped, at least - and that the nodes that have looked ready to burst since I got the tree are finally pushing out new growth, and it's finally not dying (the last bunch of new growth turned brown and died only a few millimeters out). It's looking like it hit the bottom and is on the upswing!

Thanks yet again everyone. My Moro will pull through. It looked a bit sketchy there for a while, but I am firmly believing that the repotting and extra care was what saved it, as I can't think of a single other thing that could have been wrong. I'd hate to see how it would have looked if I waited any longer to repot! Now let's hope with this new flush I get a flower or two! ;)

Here are some pics, two closeups of all the growth (It's growing slowly, but it IS growing) and the whole tree. Been in as full sun as it can get! It's surprising how attached one can get to a tree, haha.

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" It's surprising how attached one can get to a tree, haha."

That is the reason for John's Rule of Trees... that is, if you are going to plant a tree, start with the very best and biggest tree you can find and afford. You are going to have this tree in your life for a long time; and you are going to put a lot of energy, emotion, and money into it; if you start with the best, it will reward you sooner, cause you less grief, and generally make you happier.

It's taking up nutrients in order to grow well and getting lot's of sunlight..Very nice..

Just don't forget not to be stingy on the fertilizer..They are hungry eaters and will need added nutreints to support all the growth and color..It's looking much greener than before...Vey nice))

MIke

uh oh. I might still have done something wrong. I see that there is adamant info about using pine bark in the soil, and only pine bark. not the inner wood. I bought a big bag that just said 'pine nuggets' on it.... it said on the sign it was good for soil amendment but now I'm concerned. why just the bark of the wood? I'm not sure my bag of pine nuggets is entirely comprised of bark, and I've been using it to amend the soils of all of my plants.

ugh. will I ever get it right? :(

Relax, you don't have to be perfect to have a happy tree.

Give it your best effort, have a little patience, and let the tree do its part.

The bark breaks down much, much more slowly, and the demand on N is lower. Just watch your potting mix im the next couple of years for signs of collapse, and just make sure you're giving your tree enough fertilizer. You'll be fine :-)

Patty S.

Okay, I'll leave it be and hope for the best. The pine nuggets seemed perfect, with some pieces being dime sized at the largest and some being really fine mulchy stuff. I'll see if I can get a picture when I go down to my mother's house this weekend, I don't remember the brand name. Was a massive bag for pretty reasonable though, I've used that stuff for nearly ALL of my plants this last repotting season. While most are houseplants, for edibles I planted an olive and a cherry tree in soil amended with it. Guess I'll just see what happens over the winter!

What are you worried about?

It is pine bark you are suppose to use and not the inner wood..Good job)

MIke

I am worried because the bag of pine nuggets doesn't specify if it's just bark or if it's inner wood as well. It just says "Pine Nuggets" on the bag, and said it was great for amending soil, so I bought it, haha. Not sure if it's a bag of pine bark or if it's a bag of pine wood.

Cfox...

Can you post a closeup of just the bark itself..? Maybe stick a penny on top of the bark too so we can see how big the bark is in comparison and how much wood is in it?

I can't really tell from looking at the potting mix you made...

Thanks..

MIke

The most common make-up of the item sold as "Pine Nuggets" is pine bark; most of the big box stores sell it, usually in 2 cu. ft. bags; it comes from the sawmill byproduct and contains small amounts of "wood", which is why they normally do not sell it as "Pine Bark". That information comes from a friend who operates a big sawmill for Sierra Pacific in California.

Here are two pics.. the bag is outside at my mother's house so the chips are wet and therefore very uniformly colored, I'm not sure how well you'll be able to tell. It's heartening to hear it's probably mostly bark. It was sold in a gigantic bag, I am not sure how much but it has filled many many pots so far. Quarter for scale.

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