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valentina_gw

Could someone ID this clematis for me, please?

valentina
18 years ago

Hi,

I am not sure if this is the right place for my question...

Could someone help me please ID this clematis? I bought it as Multiblue, but it doesn't look to me anything like Multiblue. This is its first year flowering (if it matters).

{{gwi:620103}} {{gwi:620105}}

Thank you!

Valentina

Comments (22)

  • nckvilledudes
    18 years ago

    Valentina, I will leave the identification for someone else, but I can say that it isn't Multiblue. It sure is gorgeous looking anyway. I am having trouble figuring out what color the sepals are. In one picture they look almost fuschia and in the other purple.

  • suzymac
    18 years ago

    It looks to me to be 'Polish Spirit', which is a strong growing Viticella type, (group 3). Viticella types need a 'hard prune' at the end of winter, before the new growth begins. These will begin blooming on new vines about mid-July in your zone 5 and will continue blooming for quite some time. It is a favorite for it's abundance of flowers and long bloom.
    A rather good mistake to have !
    Suzy

  • valentina
    Original Author
    18 years ago

    Thank you very much for your help!
    suzymac, I believe you are right. Before I came here with my question I did some research. The only clematis I could find that looked very much like this one was "Polish Spirit". The leaves look alike too, the color, everything. I didn't want to say anything about it so I will not influence anybody, just in case there is some other clematis out there that looks just like this one.
    You are also right that this clematis is of very good quality. It grows fast, it is very floriferous, very healthy, makes lots of new growth from the base... Considering that it is only in it's second year, I would say that it is a very good clematis. And I have plenty of others to compare with :)

    nckvilledudes, the color of the sepals... the picture is pretty accurate. The general color is purple, but in a certain light it has a tint of reddish. The new flowers look more reddish and the old ones more purple.
    Here's another picture that shows the color pretty accurate (in my opinion):

    Again, thank you very much for help.

  • suzymac
    18 years ago

    Thank you Valentina. Here is a picture of a young Polish Spirit's flowers. Note that there are 4 tepals on mine. At the end of the season, my P.S. had differing amounts of tepals of 4- 5-6 tepaled flowers. What sold me that you had Polish Spirit was a combination of things. First, the nodding Vitticella flowers as well as the burgundy tipped anthers. Polish Spirit's Viticella tepal shape is another clue. Your description of it's vigor and floriferous nature also matches.
    {{gwi:620108}}
    I am partial to the Viticella types for their hardiness and vigor. These types are very long blooming as well.
    Suzy

  • nckvilledudes
    18 years ago

    Suzy, the color in your picture is more the color I associate with Polish Spirit. The anthers are a dead giveaway once you have it narrowed down to the viticellas. I concur with you Valentina that it is a very vigorous clematis. I purchased a small sized plant one spring, potted it up in a one gallon pot, and less than two months later, the roots were coming out of the bottom of the pot and I ended up planting it in the middle of August as a result.

  • nckvilledudes
    18 years ago

    Valentina, below is a picture I took two years ago showing color comparisons of Polish Spirit, Blue Belle, and Etoile Violette. I tried obtaining freshly opened flowers when I took the picture so that any effect that aging or fading would be minimized. Polish Spirit is on the top, Blue Belle is on the bottom left and Etoile Violette is on the bottom right.

    {{gwi:620109}}

    Suzy, have you seen where on COTW that is says that "Polish Spirit is now generally considered to be a 'Jackmanii' type, rather than a viticella type?" However it is still listed as a viticella type lower in its description as well as in the beginning of the text description. I am not sure if I understand the distinction they are trying to make. Any suggestions?

    Here is a link that might be useful: Polish Spirit

  • suzymac
    18 years ago

    Miguel, the parentage on Polish Spirit is unknown as you know, therefore I cannot see how this plant which displays all the Vitticella qualities can be assumed to be a Jackmanni type. It is still listed as Vitticella in all the books I have. (The leaves also scream Vitticella to me). I wonder if it could be a Jackmanni/Vitticella cross and the mother was Jackmanni, the father a Vitticella ? Nobody knows for sure. I will always think of it as a Vitticella type first and formost, even if it has possible Jackmanni in it's parentage, wouldn't you ?
    Some of my Vitticella type seedlings resemble this flower very much in their nodding habit, leaves and flower shape:
    {{gwi:620110}}
    and:
    {{gwi:620111}}
    and:
    {{gwi:620112}}
    Suzy

  • valentina
    Original Author
    18 years ago

    I think the color on mine is different. In all the pictures you posted the color is more purple-blue. My clematis is more purple-reddish. It looks more like the color of Etoile Violette.
    These are pictures I took right now. First is a mature flower (notice the size) and the second one a young flower.

    {{gwi:620114}} {{gwi:620116}}

    I don't think I've ever seen flowers with 4 sepals on this clematis. Maybe I am wrong. Also, notice how red the young flower is. And it has 6 sepals.
    I am not sure if I mentioned that this is the first time this clematis flowers.

    Valentina

  • suzymac
    18 years ago

    Valentina, the flowers next year will be much better and it will be more clear what you have there. Your recent pictures don't look like the first few which were more purple, so now I am wondering. I do see some Vitticella in it's genes in the flowers, though. The nodding flowers are a key. I'll go check COTW for group 3's and see what I can find that is more red. Be back soon.
    Suzy

  • suzymac
    18 years ago

    Hmmm, it's hard to say with first flowers because they are often different than subsequent bloomings. I've checked COTW and see a red with Vitticella in it's parentagge called, Rouge Cardinal which is close, but the anthers look different to me. I think we had better wait to see what the flowers look like in their next bloom and it should be much easier. Fall flower colors are sometimes much different than the regular bloom.
    You could still have a Polish Spirit there. Next year is the best time to make a guess, I think.
    Suzy

  • nckvilledudes
    18 years ago

    Suzy, I am with you on this one. Polish Spirit does look like a viticella to me and I will always consider it as such. I did some research in some of my clematis books and they talk about the Jackmanii and viticella types and the only distinction between the two is very murky at best to me. In John Howell's book "Trouble Free Clematis The Viticellas", he shows some information from Moore and Jackman (don't ask me who they are)and in their book "The Clematis as a Garden Flower", they state that the distinction between the two groups is as follows:

    Jackmanii Group-summer and autumn bloomers, flowering successionally in profuse continuous masses on summer shoots; woody climbers

    Viticella Group-summer and autumn bloomers, flowering successionally in profuse masses on summer shoots; woody climbers

    The only difference is the word continuously! Curious hey!

    Howells says in his book after referencing many different people and their distinctions between the two groups:

    "It has to be concluded that there is no clear-cut differentiation between the Viticella and Jackmanii Groups. In selection here, plants are included in the viticella group if they have a strong component of viticella in their pedigree, flower on young wood, flower from mid-summer onwards, are vigorous, tend to bell-shaped flowers, and are disease resistant. In such a variable group there is bound to be room for differing opinions on grouping."

    I think this is some semantic argument that has been going on for a long time and that is what is clouding this issue. I am not sure if there has been any genetic work done on Polish Spirit to determine its genetic background and therefore who its parents may be. I am like you in that it will always be a viticella to me!

    Valentina, the number of sepals in clematis can be variable from time to time. If you look in the Toomey and Leeds Enclycopedia of Clematis, they will often times describe a clematis as having say 4, 5, or 6 sepals or 5 or 6 sepals. I still think you have a very nicely colored clematis plant regardless of what it is. As I said earlier, the anthers at first glance made me think Polish Spirit but the flower color made me second guess myself, but then again I am not the best at identifying the purpley-blue colored clematis!I agree with Suzy that perhaps the fall flowers on your clematis may not be a good indication of its true color. I also agree that waiting until spring and seeing if the color is more characteristic of Polish Spirit is a good recourse. I still like the reddish cast that the clematis has in your garden though.

  • valentina
    Original Author
    18 years ago

    Suzy,
    I am convinced it must be Polish Spirit. I looked at many-many pictures and Polish Spirit is the only one that comes close. The fact that you ID-ed as being Polish Spirit too just reassured me. Also, from the many pictures I've seen, some look more reddish, just like mine.
    I have Red Cardinal. This is not it. The flowers on Red Cardinal are really red, no doubt about it.
    The flowers on this clematis... they are definitely purple. It's just that they have a tint of red, and when it's sunny the red shows better. In the first pictures I took it was cloudy. The last pictures - sunny. Maybe this is why you say that the colors are different. But even in the first pictures, I can still see the reddish color.
    Anyway, thank you very much for your help. I really appreciate it. I will post pictures next year :)
    It's not very important for me to find out exactly what it is. It is a nice clematis, it grows nicely, and I intend to keep it. I was just curious... It is nice to know the name.

    Valentina

  • valentina
    Original Author
    18 years ago

    nckvilledudes, thank you so much! Wow! So much research. I really appreciate it.
    I like it too, and I believe it is Polish Spirit. Maybe next year will bring more purple flowers, but I agree, I kind of like better the reddish color. It's like this clematis changes colors with the weather.
    Again, thank you very much!

    Valentina

  • clematis_not_bombs
    18 years ago

    Hi everybody I could be way off on this one but it could be Virgins Bower I have one that looks a lot like the flower shown in Valentina's picture it has a hint of rose in it I don't have a digital camera so I can't show it just a thought happy gardening

  • halds
    18 years ago

    Hi cnb,

    Never heard of Virgin's Bower.... Thank goodness for COTW!

    But.... it looks nothing like Virgins Bower shown on COTW...

  • clematis_not_bombs
    18 years ago

    Halds Virgins Bower is another name for c.Viticella in John Feltwell book clematis for all seasons he writes the flowers are blue purple or rose purple it is best to see it bloom before buying it because the quality of the flowers varies. I dont know what picture they have of it on the Cowt but mine sure looks like Virgins Bower in fact I know for sure even the back side of mine looks the same. like I said I could be wrong have a great day and happy gardening

  • halds
    18 years ago

    Hey cnb, I defer to your greater knowledge....COTW defines Virgins Bower as vitalba...small white flowers...

    Hal

    (Yes I do work, but home for the day. killing time for the repair man to show up.... I could be posting all day!)

    Hal

  • valentina
    Original Author
    18 years ago

    There must be two clematis named "Virgins Bower" because I have a Virgins Bower and it is Vitalba. White, small flowers. Very nice clematis.
    But I also found on the internet some pictures of a blue-purple clematis called Purple Virgins Bower. So there are two of them...
    here
    I don't think this is what I have. This Purple Virgins Bower looks different to me. Mine doesn't have toothed leaves. Also, 5 sepals.

    Valentina

  • clematis_not_bombs
    18 years ago

    Hi halds the plant they are picturing must be Vitalba also known as old mans beard or travelers joy. small scented white flowers super old school clematis that grows to about 40 feet goes to show you what can happen with mis marked plants people are misled even on the web thanks for chatting with me.P.s this plant is a great clematis to cover a wall.when Mary Toomey came and talked with us at Chalk Hill she said the kids in Europe smoked it. kind of nasty don't you think

  • clematis_not_bombs
    18 years ago

    Hi Valentina don't count the sepals some have 4 or 5 or 6 on the same plant this is not a good way to compare clematis good luck hope you find out what it is. Happy Gardening

  • nckvilledudes
    18 years ago

    Clematis not bombs, don't know if you have heard this before or not, but clematis vitalba is considered an non-native invasive weed in some states in the US. Supposedly it is wreaking havoc in some ecosystems due to its unruly reseeding habit.

  • clematis_not_bombs
    18 years ago

    Hey Miguel I have never heard that before I do know it grows like a weed I myself like it.Vitalba was one of those plants that no one bought in the nursery it is great for covering old sheds and barns. oh by the way you asked me my name if I told you I would have to kill you just kidding. George or rooster my brothers call me that because of my firery attitude have a great day& happy gardening

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