Norway Spruce spacing

10 years ago

Hi All:
I did a lot of reading on this forum last summer concerning Norway spruce spacing.

I live in Western NY, zone 5, and I live on a flag lot with an 800' foot long driveway. I decided last fall to plant a single row of Norway Spruce along the driveway for privacy purposes (hide my neighbor's junk). I planted them 15' apart. They are 5' B&B trees.

I am a young guy (35) and I am a patient guy, so I'm happy to wait 5-10 years for them to grow/fill out. But I also plan to stay at this house for the rest of my life, and I am concerned that in 10-20 years, these trees will grow too close together and lose the bottom branches.

So my question is this: I feel like I have a one-time opportunity to move these trees further apart this coming spring, say 20-25' apart. OR, do I simply leave them alone, and when the time comes that they grow too close together, do I remove every other tree?

I've read that this tree gets to 25-40' spread "when mature", I just have no idea if I will hit that spread in 10, 20 or 50 years? These trees get full sun and they are free of any weeds and grasses.

For what it's worth, I don't have room for a second row as the area in question is between my property line and my driveway. The area is only about 20' wide but 400' long.

Thanks for the advice you put on these boards. I have learned an awful lot about evergreens in the past 5 years from your posts.

Featured Answer

andreas75_gw

10 years ago

Hy!

I live here in the low mountains of germany where Norway Spruce is not native, but common (for "forest agriculture").
What i know is, that they can, established, grow up to a metre (or three foot and a bit) a year in height and about two to three foot in the width.

As a trimmed hedge, i would plant 4 to 5 plants on a metre or 6 plants on 4 foot.
If you want them to let grow untrimmed, i would make it like in the german forestry. Plant as many as you can, the least six to seven tiny plants (3-4 yr old seedlings) on a metre, let them grow, and remove the weakest plants from time to time, so that the strongest can thrive and in the end one plant on 3 metres is left.
They will be tight and green for- and backwards and grown together as tight in the row.

One little warning to Norway Spruce:
It tends to form very shallow root plates, what is a serial problem in the local forestry over here. Especially when the trees have grown tight together and fast upwards, they tend to brake or fall in stronger storms (over 150 km/h) like matches when they grow on shallow grounds or for example in thick loam/ clay soils.

Hopefully your ground is deeper, otherwise keep eventually making a high trimmed hedge out of them, about 8 to 10 foot high or so...

Regards,
Andreas

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Comments (12)

ricksample
10 years ago
So you planted around 50 B&B trees? If you planted that many, I think it would be near impossible to dig all of them out without a lot of help or a machine. A couple years ago I dug a 6' B&B crap out to move it... took me a few hours to transplant and the next two days to recover lol. That's just one ONE B&B tree

I plant most of my dwarf to intermediate conifers about 15' apart. This will allow everything I have to grow 30' diameter without touching. Most of my conifers has a 10 year size of 6x3. In 40 years they should be 24'x12' give or take some which is well within my 30' limit diameter limit. I'm 30 and I don't think the ones I have planted will touch in my lifetime. Even if they do, it'll just be the bottom few feet.

But those are my medium growth rate conifers... Norway spruces grow a lot faster a lot quicker I'm sure. If you planted them 15' on center, that'll allow each one to get 30' wide before touching. I don't know how fast they grow, but if they grow a 1' wide each year you'll have at least 30 years before they touch. If they grow 2' a year you'll have only 15 years.

I planted my green giants to close (I planted these before I knew how to determine the size.) When/if these get to crowded, I plan to just remove every other one. But that could cost a pretty penny when they get 40' tall.
outback63 Dennison
10 years ago
How far back from the 800' driveway did you plant them?

You didn't say but I assume they are species and not a grafted cultivar of some kind.

Determining the width of the spread will be based upon the life of the plant as they grow till they die.

You will not want to remove any of them when they grow together. If you do the sides will be void of foliage. Let them maintain the solid wind screen. They will not loose bottom foliage where exposed to full sun.

Also if you planted 50 a certain percentage will not make it. Just the way it is. Have a few extra planted down at the end of the row for replacements.

There is a certain gentleman that lurks on this forum. He is an expert on spruce aka Picea abies He goes by the handle of spruceman.

Maybe he will chime in for some additional advice.

Good luck,

Dave
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Wow - you dug up a seriously old post! So I did end up planting a very long screen -- basically the entire length of the property line -- and I'm actually really happy with how it turned out. We used Thuja Green Giant arborvitae in the center where the tallest part of the house we are trying to block out is -- we planted them a decent distance apart, not all jammed up like I see people do for a property line screen. They have grown fast, widened out, and are basically almost up to the roof of the house we are trying to hide. I think they should cap out right about 35 feet or so, which won't block the view. We planted a few during our initial planting then filled in with a few more a couple years later -- those later plantings are a bit stunted - not sure if it's because we squeezed them into less space or they were just inferior to begin with (originals came from a nursery and were planted by a landscaper, later ones from Home Depot and we DIYed them). But they are all growing well and healthy, and seem impervious to deer, wind, cold, snow, etc. To the sides of the arborvitate, we used Nellie Stevens hollies. They too have grown fast. They don't much care for the wind -- they ended up looking pretty bad by the end of the last two winters (which were brutally cold and windy) but they filled in with new leaves in the spring. The deer don't seem to eat them either. And again, I think they cap out at 20 feet or so. To the sides of that (which is getting away from blocking the house and now just screening their yard from ours) we used forsythias planted very close together that we let grow wild into a thick hedge -- mainly because I love forsythia. It's not evergreeen but the hedge is so thick and branches are so close together that it does a decent job of screening even in winter. And in spring when it is in bloom, it is an absolutely stunning wall of yellow. Again the deer don't bother them and they seem to grow well without much care. And finally at the very end of the property lines, we used sea green junipers -- again, we were looking for something evergreen but it didn't need to be tall - we were only trying to hide the neighbor's "junk pile" which was unfortunately located so that it was the first thing you saw when you pulled into our driveway. Those are the plants that look the sickliest -- there's always big brown patches in them and the snow breaks the branches. But they are farthest from the house and from far away they look ok, so I don't mind them. I think if I had to do it over again, I'd have used all forsythia instead of also using juniper -- the forsythia are just so amazingly gorgeous when they are in bloom. I would take a picture for you but we are in the middle of a storm right now -- if I remember, I will get one tomorrow. Here's a link to a pic of what it looked like when we first planted itin 2009: Newly planted And here's a shot from the summer of 2012 (sorry for lousy pic -- best I could find): Three years old I would say that this year it really started to look good since the green giants are basically touching now.
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Good question: When planting small trees I recommend an initial spacing of 6 X 6 with the idea that some trees will be more vigorous than others and will eventually be thinned out, leaving an irregular spacing averaging about 20 feet. For forest plantings I also recommend 6X6 initial spacing with an eventual spacing of 25 feet or so in a mature forest. But your trees are already 10 feet tall and I would assume that they have similar vigor, so you will not be planning on any eventual thinning. So what to do? If you plant them 10 feet apart so they will make a screen fast, they will not look good in 20 years or so because they will be too crowded. If you compromise and plant them 15 feet apart you will not have a good screen soon enough, and then you will also have them eventually too close--not good on either score. Here is one solution--plant them 20 feet apart in two staggered rows separated so that each tree in one row is 14 feet from the two nearest trees in the other row. This way, if you stand back, the trees will appear to be 10 feet apart, but at the same time each tree will have enough room to grow to maturity. And when they grow for a while and fill in, the staggered rows will give you a screen with more density than a single row could give you. As for the blue spruces--do not mix them with the Norway spruce in a row for screening. The Norway spruce grow faster and eventually get substantially larger, so they will eventually overwhelm the blue spruces and they will not look good. Plant them in their own separate rows and using the schemes I described above, just reduce the spacing by something like 15 to 25%. --Spruce
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"They" are a highly-variable species. You will see mature specimens retaining a narrow crown and you will see incredibly wide, squatty-looking things. This species is all over the place. All that said, I see no reason to move a young spruce tree that's already twelve feet within your boundary. First, it will be some time before it begins to encroach on neighboring property, and second, it might not matter in any meaningful way. BTW, still one of my fave species, possessed of some kind of lusty growth capability we don't see in all species. +oM
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
10 years ago
leave them be ...

they will grow together ... to make a solid wall ...

the branches facing each other.. will.. as you think.. brown and thin.. as they lose sun ... who cares .. they will be interior ...

all facets.. facing out.. to the sun .. will grow without losing needles ... you trim up becasue you wnat the space under.. not for losing branches ...

you are having a problem 'seeing' the difference between forest trees .. and individual specimens ... and i cant think of a way of googling that to show you ...

all conifers shed needles in 1 to 3 years ... and off hand.. i am thinking this one holds for 3 years .... correct me if i am wrong ...

but come.. 20 or 30 years down the line.. if you were to crawl inside. and stand near a trunk.. they will be all nudie inside.. that is what happens.. when the interiors get shaded ...

now... listen careful ... if you want to move them.. crikey man.. focus.. MOVE EVERY OTHER ONE... lol ..... and space them 30 feet apart..; and leave half undisturbed .... and even that isnt going to be enough ... thats only 15 feet for each tree from center ...

but even still... i have one that came with my house .... and i will guess its about 20 years old.. and its already past the 30 feet wide ... its the nature of the beast ...

sounds like you have plenty of space.. move on to some new project.... you are investing way to much thought into this project ...

ken

ps: or you could harvest every other one.. over the years... for xmas trees... if you learn how to shear them to that shape ... hey.. work smart.. not hard... lol ...
jarpe
10 years ago
In Finland fences made of Picea abies are extremely popular. Every second house is surrounded By them. Nurseries advice to plant 12ÃÂ´apart so that they can sell more. I feel that about 20ÃÂ´ is best.That way individual plant has enough foliage in long run to stay healty and less need for replacements. Thinner than that wonÃÂ´t look full in first ten years. Yours is relatively good, maby you shouldnÃÂ´t touch it. It will look good for many decades to come.
eric77
Original Author
10 years ago
Thanks for the replies.

Dave/Rick: I only planted 20 trees along about 350' of my driveway. After that my lot opens and my driveway drifts away from my property line. I planted them 13' away from my driveway. They are not a grafted cultivar. I may add a few more but overall I was thinking this project was done until I started to see yard specimens over the winter here with Norways that looked 20 or even 30' spreads, so it started making me nervous.

Ken: you're reading my mind here, I can't decide if I'm overthinking this or if I should take some time to move them in spring. I planted 10 last spring and 10 last fall, so my thinking is the ones from fall will be easy to move as they likely didn't throw out new root growth..not as sure on the spring ones. I actually like your idea of moving every other..I do have another spot where I had planned to add more norways of the same size this spring, so this would save me some money. I am going for a privacy screen here, not wind screen, so ideally I'd like to hang onto as much lower growth thinking long term. I guess if I could do this over I would've went 20-25' apart but I'm liking your idea of every other.
wisconsitom
10 years ago
I'm with the "crikey man" guy..................leave em be. For whatever little benefit you might gain by giving them another five or ten feet, it will be so imperceptible, and they will grow together just as nice as can be just the way you've planted them!

I'm not spruceman, but I've probably planted more NS than anyone else on this forum. I consider them to be top-notch large-growing conifers, better than any of the spruce species native to the eastern US in my opinion. I would guess I've planted at least 2500 of them on my land by now, mostly at ten feet spacing-this is forestry, not landscaping-but more recent plantings were even tighter. It's all good. They're not going to have trouble with each other. But this only reinforces that what you have already done will be just fine.

+oM
eric77
Original Author
10 years ago
Ken and oM, your posts have helped me visualize "the future" but I want to make sure I follow you... I have plenty of mature white pine and scotch pine on my property and I'm used to the low branches dying as they lose light, particularly those that were planted close together. I have no experience with any spruce, however. It seems you are saying that I will not lose the lower part of my wall in 10-20 years? In other words, the branches might get a little naked on the inside toward the trunk, but I should have decent needle coverage on the outside? The tree line runs east to west, so I'm guessing the needles should look ok on the north and south sides and thereby provide me a screen? I'm after a "green screen" here for the future more than anything else and will invest more time in moving the trees to get it right if need be.
User
10 years ago
You are overthinking it. Worst case you have to remove some trees in a few years. Do one a year and use it for a Christmas tree.

Digging them up and replanting them will kill a lot of them.

At 15 feet apart, each tree can develop a 15-foot (7.5 on each side) spread before the branches even touch.
spruceman
10 years ago
Yes Tom is not me, but he knows his Norway spruce. And so does Ken. Norway spruce retain their lower branches very well, unless in fairly dense shade.

I think your 15 foot spacing will work very well. If I wanted to have perfect spacing for a row of "specimen" 60 year-old Norway spruce, I would recommend wider spacing, maybe somewhere between 20 and 30 feet (there is no "absolute" perfect spacing). But given your situation and goals there for a screen, 15 feet will do just fine. As they grow rather large, they will tend to grow together and the trees will not be so broad as they would be if given more space, but I see no problem. Enjoy!

Of course, if some grow faster, and look better than others, the weaker, less beautiful ones can be thinned out later, and that can give more room to the nicer, stronger ones. But that would most likely lead to some irregular spacing. You can decide what you would like when the time comes.

--spruce
wisconsitom
10 years ago
There Eric-you've got the best Norway spruce info available on the web right there from Spruceman. And what he reports is exactly true-your trees will grow just fine and it will be longer than you or I need to care about-if ever-before a lower limb or two begins to decline. Like spruceman said, this species of tree holds its lower limbs very well.

I'd also not be overly concerned with windthrow. Anything is possible and we never know what the weather is going to do, but everywhere I look here in windy Wisconsin are big, old NS, which not only haven't been torn out of the ground by the wind, they appear to have never sufferered any appreciable weather-related damage whatsoever! I'd rank them as among the most resistant of all trees to storm damage, and I've seen a LOT of storm damage in trees!

One more thing, if you'll permit me to brag just a bit: I've got thousands of NS up at my tree farm, the oldest of which have been in the ground (from seedling) for four growing seasons. Last summer, with its cool and moist weather regime, we saw growth increments of more than four feet on many of them. The point here is, in a situation where these trees are happy-and it doesn't take amazingly good conditions to make them happy-they really do put on the growth. Beautious things to behold too!

+oM
HU-616956209
2 years ago
I planted 30 Norway Spruce 3 yr. old seedlings in a row 6 feet apart running east to west in an open pasture for a privacy wall 7 years ago and at that time I researched spacing of these trees and found instructions to thin every other one after 7 years leaving an 18 ft. between trees. Is this spacing still advisable?

Ed in NH

Norway Spruce spacing

andreas75_gw

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