Dwarf conifers in part/full shade

15 years ago

From what I have learned from experts and read from books, it appears to me that dwarf and miniature conifers do OK in part shade, in fact may even prefer it.

I'm curious what other people have found both with dwarves and minis, both planted in part shade and even full shade.

I have a strip alongside my path in my southern side yard and I am considering placing a number of dwarf conifers near the path but still limited to perhaps 3-4' hours of sun at peak summer and a few hours plus dappled sun the rest of the year.

I realize some shade loving conifers would be fine, tsuga, taxus, chamaecyparis and a few others but the types I am considering are:

Cedrus atlantica(Horstmanns, Silberspitz, etc)

Cedrus deodara(Girards weeping, Albospica, Shalimar, etc.)

Picea abies(Hillside upright, Kellermans blue cameo, etc)

Picea pungens dwarves and intermediates(thume, Iseli foxtail, etc)

Picea omorika dwarves(nana, tremonia, etc)

Pinus densiflora(Burkes Red Varigated, Cesarini's Varigated)

Pinus parviflora(Ogon Janome)

Any suggestions and experiences would be most welcomed.

Will

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firefightergardener
Original Author

15 years ago

Thanks for all of the suggestions!

I will surely consider 'Gold Fern' I have a small cultivar and it's a lovely looking thing. I may pass on Ogon Janome in there as it will tend to get large and also may not be very bright. I was told that a few 'varigated' pines actually color better in shade, Pinus mugo 'Marand' being one I have planted in there already.

I have a handful of maples already planted in the 'deeper shade'. I think they are:

Ukigumo
Aka Shigitatsu Sawa
Higasayama
Oridono Nishiki
Ueno Yama

Most are varigates and had outstanding colors in this shade.

I appreciate all of the tips and experience being offered here, it will save me many hours(and perhaps trees) transplanting things into the future.

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Comments (17)

barbaraincalif
15 years ago
Hi Will...I have a Picea pungens (one of the globose cultivars on an 18'' standard) in full shade where it is doing terrific.

My guess is that the Pinus cultivars would have better color in the sun...

Barbara
barbaraincalif
15 years ago
Oops...and Picea abies doing great in the shade too.
Not sure if the blue abies will keep their color in the shade, as my blue glauca cultivars do need some sun for color.
The blue pungens retain their color perfectly here in shade.
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Thanks Ken! Yes I know the definition of dwarf vs miniature, intermediate, and large. Besides the Taxus and the Abies lasiocarpa they are all considered dwarf if I remember right. We just wanted something slow growing so it won't outgrow the space. Hm, is it just that variety of Taxus or do none of the Yews do well in your area? The ladies in my garden club seemed to think that would be the one that would be taking off the fastest. I can't believe how big your Vintage Gold is! The tag said in 10 years it would be 3' x 3'. I know depending on the conditions that can vary a lot but 7' is huge. Is yours in the shade? We would not have the space for that. One of the flower beds is 25' long and 6' wide. That is where I wanted to have the 'Frostie', 'Hussi', 'Starker's Dwarf', and 'Vintage Gold'. The other 25' long flower bed is curved with the conifers being on each of the wider ends. The end where I was planning on putting 'Jeddeloh' and 'White Pygmy' staggered is 7' wide. And the other end is 8 or 9' wide where I was hoping to put 'Glauca CompactaÂ and ÂNana AurescensÂ also staggered so they could each get that wide. We wanted some height on that end since you see down the full 25' length as you approach the house. Does that sound like a big enough space? I forgot to mention that the area is very sheltered from the wind also. Is it true that you aren't supposed to amend the soil when you plant conifers? Our soil isn't bad but has a little too much clay. What about fertilizer or root growth products? I've never used them but I've also never planted such costly plants!
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first you need to use latin name.. especially in conifers ... then you need to study this link for growth rates: http://conifersociety.org/conifers/conifer-sizes/ and then you need to shop for a CULTIVAR.. a named variety ... that will fit within your space.. for the longest time ... i have personally removed numerous allegedly dwarf mugo... that were as big as a house ... the name means nothing.. and many are seed grown ... so you dont even have predictability .... all size estimates .. in conifers.. are at ten years.. presume twice as big in 20 ... if a plant grows 3 to 6 inches per year.. then it should be less than 5 feet tall in ten years ... etc .... no conifer will die in shade... it just might not end up being as full as you might like ... 8 hours is usually called full .. ... your spot.. if it gets dawn to 1pm sun might be going on 7 hours .... i dont understand how you counted 4 ... and 7 hours would be close enough ... so visit a website like conifer kingdom... and peruse what they offer ... using the growth rate you want to target ... there are old posts about other favored sellers ... a yellow plant.. in lesser sun.. might not yellow up properly ... so try to stay away from those ... if you can track down any local arborteums or collections.. it might be a great day trip ... and a way to see them in action ... ken
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Thank you both very much for your input! Gardengal, I have definitely considered broadleaf evergreens, but DH keeps circling back to the look of conifers. The house is an 1890s four-square, and I think he feels that the conifers fit the style better and "dress up" the front in a way that a more naturally sprawling broadleaf shrub wouldn't. He actually likes the look of formally-sheared privet hedges, but because of the slope it is just not practical to keep this one in shape. Personally, I love the idea of kalmia or another flowering evergreen up there - or even a "mixed border" rather than a single-plant hedge. Perhaps a little convincing is in order! ;) Ken, I agree with you that a hedge is not an especially creative solution but in this case DH also wants to hide the fence itself to some extent, as it is chain link and not terribly attractive. We have discussed removing it entirely, but in that case we would need a hedge there for safety purposes (it's a pretty steep drop to the street!). Replacing it with something nicer (decorative iron, perhaps) is also a possibility, although I think DH would still want a semi-solid plant screen in the 4-5' range. Anyway, I am absolutely open to other outside-the-box solutions - perhaps showing the rest of the yard would help! Here is the other side of the fence line (the perennials there were all planted by the former owner and are destined to be moved in any case): We have 10 feet of depth between the edge of the porch and the fence, which is currently arranged as a 2' deep bed and 8' of lawn. Our ultimate plan is to turn the entire thing into a garden bed, leaving a 3-4' walkway close to the house, which will give us 6-7' for perennials. My plan was to have taller "screening" plants on the downhill side of the fence and use the bed on the house side for lower-growing perennials, but I would definitely be open to planting some taller things in the uphill bed - I'm just not sure that 6' of depth gives me a lot of options. Here's an aerial of what we are planning to do with the path/beds, which will include the side yard as well (fence line is in red).Thanks in advance for your suggestions!
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coniferjoy
15 years ago
Hi Will,

Conifers which are yellow or variegated must at least standing in partly sun to show their nice colour.
If these are standing in complete shade the colour wil be very disappointing.
I recomment that you don't plant the following conifers in complete shade:
-Cedrus atl. 'Silberspitze'
-Cedrus deo. 'Albospica'
-Pinus dens. 'Burke's Red Variegated'
-Pinus dens. 'Cesarini's Variegated'
-Pinus parv. 'Ogon-janome'
Conifers which are blue and green all year could be planted in full shade, but the still needs a full ligtintensity.
dcsteg
15 years ago
It is my experience in dealing with most of the above mentioned conifers is yes they will grow in shade/part shade.

As these are sun loving conifers they are best grown in full sun.

If grown in shade over the years they they will have that thinned out look and grow leggy.

I have two Picea pungens 'Glauca Procumbens' One in shade the other in full sun. The sun version 3 times as big, has better color and generally and over all healthier plant.

My advice is don't do it if they are to stay in the same shade environment permanently.

Dave
kim_dirtdigger
15 years ago
Hi Will,

We grow quite a few of our conifers in partial shade but we try to keep it to those you mention as more shade tolerant (tsuga, etc.) Thujopsis, Cephalotaxus, and Taxodium are a few others that seem to tolerate some shade. Picea abies so far appear fine in partial shade. I would especially avoid any pines in a shadey location -- we planted a few in partial shade and they have very quickly become open and leggy.

I have a very short learning curve and only about 3-4 years experience with our conifers. As others have said, most of the plants will probably survive, but not thrive, in the shade.

Kim
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
15 years ago
this is how i think about it ....

a happy plant has an annual growth rate .... lets use 12 inches as an example .... when grown in full sun ....

the problem is that the term SHADE is hard to define ... we cant lump all shade under one umbrella ... there is light shade.. and at the other end of the spectrum is what i call a dark cave ... both are technically SHADE ...

in a given bed.. the shade at the back.. can be significantly different than the shade at the front .. so we really have to avoid using the term SHADE as meaning.. really anything other than lack of full sun ...

sooooo .... if 12 inches in full sun ... it might only do 3 inches in full shade ... and then get sparse and leggy .. and probably start leaning to the sun.. these conifers really know how to cope.. its usually us that screw it all up ... lol ...

in the SHADE defined somewhere between the dark cave and full sun .... you might get 9 inches... straight as an arrow upwards [no lean] ... and full in shape ... i would call that perfect placement ....

how any given plant .. will do in the location you are thinking about .... is really only answered by putting the thing there .... and giving it a go ... and charting the annual growth rate .... and resulting growth patterns ... and seeing how it all works out ....

we can add our observations.. and suggestions.. along with research on shade resilient varieties ... but its all a throw of the dice when it comes to particular, specific info for your garden ...

i have pungens royal knight and globosa in full dark shade.. both growing about 3 inches per year.. nice color ... maybe even bluer than the norm.. since no sun to melt off the wax ... the dataBase on globosa indicates 1 to 6 inches per year .... daves picture at the dB seems to indicate 2 to 3 .. which seems about consistent with mine in full shade ...

lol .. the pic of royal knight looks nothing like my plant.. go figure on that .... mine grows about 3 to 5 inches per year... and is not an upright .... but the dB says 12 inches... carp .. whether that means the shade is affecting growth rate.. or whether i bought a mislabeled plant.. who knows ... that was a waste of an example ....

the moral of the story ... you can NOT define your light level.. aka the amount of shade ... so just plant them where you want.. and move them later if they are weak or unpleasing ... but try to avoid having to move big stuff later ... spend a few more minutes figuring out which ones you will not be able or want to move in 5 years ... and make sure those are placed where they can stay ...

ken
firefightergardener
Original Author
15 years ago
Yeah, basically the strip I am considering is shaded fairly moderately by the large established trees to the south. The border between houses is a mix of large leafy trees like Madrones and another deciduous tree and a handful of Douglas firs, 30ft-100ft in height. During the prime growing months(May/June/July), this entire area I am considering planting conifers will get direct sunlight for anywhere from 3-4 hours to perhaps as much as 6-8. During the other 'growing months', March, April, August and September, these locations will get maybe an hour or two tops of direct sunlight and then heavy dappled shade through out the rest of the daylight hours.

Based on the feedback I think I am going to plant mostly tsuga, taxus, chamaecyparis in this bed and then occasionally mix in a few picea pungens dwarf varieties. I'll post images of this whole area in the upcoming weeks, it's the 'other end' of my path, this end being two small retaining walls to level out the slope some.

Thanks again for all the advice.
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
15 years ago
8 hours is considered FULL sun ... whether or not there is shade some part of the day .... learned that in my rose growing days ....

the issue then becomes... the intensity of the sun ...

dawn and dusk full sun is not equivalent to noon sun ... so 4 hours at dawn.. and 4 hours at dusk.. might be a problem for SOME plants ... which require intense levels of light ...

i realize you may know most of this... but i use it to refresh my memory .. and to entertain any newbies who are lurking.. and i know you are out there ...

we could then add FILTERED light to complicate the whole mess ... lol ... but technically.. that brings us back to intensity ...

in the olden days .... 5 years ago .. lol .. you actually had pix peeps who carried photo meters to measure the light intensity ... except for the true photo expert.. that is probably a thing of the past with digital this and that ....

with said tool ... you could probably actually define the light level in your SHADE .... and then try to find research indicating how many units of what level of light.. is satisfactory for your plants.. the greenhouse peeps probably have some of this science worked out ... this would be why there are shade clothes that vary from 25 to 60% shade ... depending what you are growing in the man made shade ...

ken

PS: all of which leaves will standing there scratching his head.. really no further ahead than he was prior to posting... thinking.. aw heck.. i am just going to plant the thing here.. and worry about it in a few years ... lol
gardener365
15 years ago
3 hours is considered to be "sun" plants. Add in dappled light and you have sun growing conditions moreso than shade conditions. Any conifer needing sun requirements will thrive just fine for you.

Dax
karinl
15 years ago
If it's dwarves and minis you're talking about, won't they get leggier in shade? And doesn't that sort of miss the point of growing them?

I have almost no "full sun" on my property and so everything grows in some degree of shade; I definitely understand the conundrum of wanting to plant things in less than their ideal conditions. Things do OK; just fine in most cases. But you have to make some compromises in some cases; you do get foliage die-out and legginess. What I do is give the choice spots to the choice plants, and accept some reduced performance in the others.

By the way, when talking shade, always think of Microbiota!

KarinL
dcsteg
15 years ago
"By the way, when talking shade, always think of Microbiota!"

Yes...especially in the winter

Dave
firefightergardener
Original Author
15 years ago
What is this Microbiota yoiu speak of?

Also, I am getting pretty comfortable with my choices now for the part shade bed. I'll post images eventually, but I am going to try to mix in about a dozen of the following plants:

Abies nordmanniana 'Golden Spreader'
Cedrus deodara 'Cream Puff'
Picea orientalis 'Silver Seedling'
Picea omorika 'Aurea' - Already planted for the most light
Picea pungens 'Wendy'
Picea pungens 'Iseli Foxtail'
Picea pungens 'Thume'
Picea pungens 'Glauca Pendula'
Pinus parviflora 'Tani Mano Uki'
Tsuga canadenis 'Vermulen Wintergold' x2
Tsuga canadenis 'Bergmans Snowflake'
Tsuga canadenis 'Pendula'
Tsuga canadenis 'Woodrose'
Tsuga canadenis 'Everitt' Golden'
Tsuga met.? 'Thorrsons Weeper'

Japanese maples:

Acer Palmatum 'Katsura'
Acer Palmatum 'Sazanami'
Acer Palmatum 'Shaina'
Acer Shirasawanum 'Auream'
Acer Shirasawanum 'Palmatifolium'

Suggestions for some others would be quite welcomed.

Will
dcsteg
15 years ago
"What is this Microbiota you speak of?"

Dave Microbiota decussata. Although it is tolerant of partial shade, it looks at its best in full sun. Winter time shade a must to prevent sun from drying out foliage as it is shallow rooted and can't take up moisture when ground frozen.
{{gwi:638840}}
kaitain4
15 years ago
Will,

A.p. 'Shaina' will not do well in shade - quickly turning almost completely green. Try A.p. 'Cindy' instead (Topiary Gardens). 'Cindy' will stay red all season long in almost total shade. Mine got 2 hours of sun per day and stayed red all year long. A.s. 'Aureum' is stunning in the shade, as its luminous green-gold leaves give the effect of being lit up from within. Mine seems to be doing well here in TN on the north side of the house, with perhaps a hour of sun per day. Don't give A.s. 'Aureum' ANY fertilizer - ever! Super sensitive to it. Use compost or worm castings around the roots in springtime. Also, keep it slightly (that's SLIGHTLY) drier than the palmatums.

You're getting some of the same conifers I'm ordering from Coenosium. We'll have to compare notes on how these plants do in our respective climates, especially 'Golden Spreader' and 'Silver Seedling'. Mine have a good chance of being fried to a crisp! One must try, as you know. OCD gets expensive!! LOL!

Regards,

K4
nwconifergarden
15 years ago
I agree on Shaina, it is one of the few A.P.'s that tolerates full sun well, and there are many that really need that shade. Any of the verigates/reticulated leaf types or corralinums would really appreciate those conditions. Stick a Ukigumo in there and it will be a beacon!

I have a P.P. Ogon Janome in full sun and it is BRIGHT all year round, just a little burn on late new growth. I was going to move it to a shader spot, but after seeing dull ones in those conditions I decided to leave it there. So far so good.
norcalconifers
15 years ago
I think you would great enjoy a picea abies 'kellerman's blue cameo' I have mine on a mound that is shaded by a very large pine and it is a plant that is always commented on. I would also recommend a Chamaecyparis obtusa ÂGold FernÂ Great colors and can take as much shade as you need.
I have also had very good luck with Cedrus deodara ÂFeeling BlueÂ in the shade. It becomes a very nice grren instead of blue, but still really nice.
Steven

Dwarf conifers in part/full shade

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Dwarf conifers in part/full shade

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