Clematis like big holes that are well amended. They don't do nearly as well in hard clay. They want moisture but good drainage. Compost is always great.

What kind of light exposure do you have there? Macrophylla Hydrangeas need some shade. Clematis do not bloom well in shade.

As for the soil, all my garden was planted in our heavy clay when we bought the house 5 years ago. It was like cement - hard and no drainage whatsoever. One of the wonderful members of this forum and an experienced Clematis grower Miguel recommended to not amend the soil at the planting time, but rather mulch my newly planted Clematis and other perennials and shrubs with good compost. This way, the soil is improved the natural way - from the top to the bottom.
I also used lasanga method to improve the quality of the soil (google it).

Now, 5 years later, the soil on my beds is fantastic - rich, well drained. Lots of earthworms.

Raised bed is an excellent idea too.

In my own garden of clay the Clematis that I planted into small holes that were only mulched with compost and didn't have any mixed into the surrounding soil have not thrived.

Those who were planted into big amended holes have.

We have top dressed the entire yard every year for seventeen years but it has not proved enough for me.

I am slowly digging up and amending and replanting but they all aren't done yet.

I can only recommend from my own experience.

Lasagna method does wonders. I've never had time to prepare beds 6 months before planting. I did "lasagna" around newly planted perennials and shrubs. Within one year the soil is completely different. I guess, the layer of cardboard and newspapers is the main difference compared to just mulching.

I do dig quite big holes when I plant Clematis. If the soil is amended in this hole, it creates a basin of a good soil in the surrounding clay. All water just stays in this basin. This is how our Maryland clay works :(

I remember I made a recommended test for drainage before I started planting my garden. I dug up a hole about 1' deep and 2' wide and filled it with water. The description of that test said that if water drains within one hour, the drainage is good. The water stayed in the hole for a week!

Miguel's advices in this thread and the info in this article helped me a lot.

A couple of quotes.

Here is what Miguel said:
If you go overboard and amend the soil too much, the hole will be a swimming pool and plants will often die. If you can prepare a large bed for quite a few of your clematis to live in, then you can afford to go overboard with your amendments since a larger bed will drain better than a single hole. Another option if your soil is rocky or excessively claylike is to build raised beds and bring in good topsoil to fill the beds with.

And here is a quote from the article:

Unless adding a plant to an existing bed, don't cheat by just amending the soil removed from the planting hole, for the roots need to be encouraged to be developed beyond it. This is especially true when planting trees and shrubs. Many studies have shown that amending the soil only within the planting hole actually inhibits root development beyond it. The roots need to grow into the surrounding soil, and the sooner that happens, the faster and better the plant will become established.

All soil below our lawn did not change - still that cement-like clay .... Only soil that was improved by lasagna, compost, and mulch has been improved tremendously.
The only downside of lasagna method is that it is quite labor and time consuming.

Yes, I've read those studies and have read his advice and was also given that advice from many professionals as far as amending soil in holes inhibiting root growth beyond it. Heck, I've given that advice many times myself. However, in my own garden, with regards to Clematis only, the Clems stuck into holes chopped in the clay without amending and digging a lot bigger than the rootball, have failed to thrive. For years.

Interesting. I lost a couple of smaller Clematis (Donahue's) planted into amended soil before I got that advice from Miguel and before I read about this. When I dug the dead babies up, the crowns were rotten. So, that theory was confirmed in my garden and under my circumstances, although for small Clematis only. Larger Clematis survived, but probably were more slow in the long run compared to those that were planted without amendments and with lasagna/compost around them.

Maybe, your soil is not as heavy as ours and the "boundary" between the new hole and the surrounding soil is not that drastic?

Funny, the original poster does not seem to be interested in this discussion.

Despite the popular and respected advice NOT to amend individual planting holes for permanent landscape plants (trees, shrubs, vines), virtually every clematis resource will advocate a completely opposing view - a wide, deep and well-amended planting hole. And with all other permanent landscape plants, the recommendation is to plant no deeper than the top of the rootball, preferrably a bit above grade. Again, the opposite is recommended for clematis - the top of the rootball/vining stalks should be planted 3-6" below grade.

If one is planting in heavy, clay or poorly draining soils, there are still ways you can accommodate the rather unique and specific needs of clematis and NOT create a bathup effect much like what Miguel described. If you dig a significantly wider planting hole, amend generously and plant the vine relatively high but still with the crown sufficiently below the soil surface, you can alleviate much of the drainage issues. Essentially, you are a constructing a small mounded planting bed or berm. And a raised planting area always benefits from improved drainage.

From practical experience growing dozens of clematis over the years, I can say those planted deeply in well amended soil - contrary to the recommendations typically given for any other planting - establish faster, grow more robustly and experience less wilt issues than those whose planting is not as well considered.

This said with all due respect to Miguel, bless his clematis-loving heart :-)

I tend to amend the entire bed when I am making it to avoid this type of issue of the hole vs the native soil. I use large quantities of well-rotted organic matter placed 8 or so inches deep right on top of the soil in the whole area I want the bed. Finished compost or very old manure or whatever source you have for this organic matter will work as long as it has finished composting. In my area city folks use municipal compost and I use manure from whatever neighbor is interested in having it hauled away. When I first started doing this type of bed, I would dig in the compost, but by now if I am feeling energetic, I just loosen the underlying soil by wiggling a pitchfork and if I am not, the organic matter just gets plopped on top. I have fine sandy loam, but from my younger years of planting in OH clay, I know that the organic matter added to the top will gradually improve the tilth of the soil below even in the stickiest gray glop.

Since the OP seems to be basically starting over in this area, it might be wise to do the entire bed area where they will want to be planting.

alina_1: "Funny, the original poster does not seem to be interested in this discussion."

On the contrary, I'm very interested and appreciate the discussion, suggestions, and links. I've just been busy and not able to check back until today.

nhbabs: "Since the OP seems to be basically starting over in this area, it might be wise to do the entire bed area where they will want to be planting."

This is what we're leaning towards. When the clematis was there, it did well for many years. The whole area just needs some TLC not only for the well-being of whatever we plant, but for aesthetics too. In addition to the clematis and two hydrangeas, I'm sure some other perennials will eventually make their way in.

The entire fence line receives morning sun, shaded from about noon to 4, then dappled sunlight in the late afternoon. It could possibly receive a little more late afternoon sun depending on the very large maple tree getting a trim, but it still wouldn't be full-on at that time of day.

We have a friend in the lawn business who does have a small tiller and would be willing to go over the area for us when we're ready. We have about 1/2 yard left of "super soil" (60% topsoil, 30% humus, 10% peat) from another project and have access to aged horse manure.

I've been reading up on the lasagna method and I think it'll be perfect for some areas in the backyard. *When* we get to it.

2Dog1CatMom,

If you are not planning to plant this bed now, you can start preparing it for the fall planting. It is much easier. Personally, I've never had patience to prepare my beds ahead of time :), but it could work perfectly for you.

The light exposure sounds fine for many Clematis and Hydrangeas, although macrophylla Hydrangeas might need some additional watering with several hours of direct summer sun. Also, you are in a similar zone (I am in 6/7, MD), so H. Rio is not bud hardy for you. You will need to protect it during winters for the next year blooming.

Another possible problem is your Maple. If it is too close to the bed, you might not be able to plant these plants. Unless your raised bed will be really raised. Most Maples kill everything around with their shallow and extremely dense roots. That Maple could be the reason that your Clematis vanished...

Good luck with your project!

Oh how we know the evils of this huge, old maple tree!! My mom originally (about 20 years ago) had shade perennials next to the front of the house, directly under the tree and she struggled to get anything to last more than a year or two. The roots are everywhere and you can barely even dig down into the native soil to loosen it up. Half-barrels with impatients, begonias, and coleus work well! :-)

I'm with you on lack of patience for prepping ahead, but working it now for fall is exactly what we're planning. The hydrangeas are in large pots there right now and seem to be doing well. This area is about 30 feet away from the maple and so far doesn't seem to be too bad root-wise. Of course, it could be another story once we really get into digging around!

how are roses and lillies shaping into a landscape of clematis and hydrangea. the clematis I deadheaded when will it bloom again?

roses and lillies will they landscape well with clematis and hydrangea

Both roses and Lilies are great companions for Clematis. Better than H. macrophylla which requires some shade.

It is a good idea to start a new thread though when you are not replying to the original poster.