1. You can start buying or trading seed at any point, holding most seeds for a year in a cool /dark /dry place will help them keep. I sowed over 30 packets of 2006 seeds last year. I got about 70 % germination. I used to find seeds on sales at stores, but it seems like they dont do much of that anymore =(. I dont know if seed vendors just take the old lots back now or what.

2. Why are you getting dampening? I have never lost a wintersown plant to dampening off, Ive killed alot of inside plants that way =). Not that Im not good at killing other plants as well, I accidently mulched over some ruby star coneflowers, they started pushing thier way through, and me as dumb as can be started to "weed" it.

Did you actually wintersow your plants? or where they started inside? I dont know all your variables, but you dont really need to fertilize your seedlings until in ground and happy. They will survive on thier own. Unless of course you were keeping them in the pots for over a year, which sounds like what you were doing?

It sounds more like heat stress or fertilizer stress, or a comibination of both, or dampening off disease if they were started inside...

Silverkelt

I have mixed results with old seeds on germination - percentage of germination is generally higher with newer seeds.

What about depth of container? I find if I'm trying to grow seedlings on in a container before planting them out, if the container is too shallow, they will die.

so sorry to hear about your lack of success but please don't get discouraged - sometimes it takes a couple of tries to figure out what containers work best for you and where to keep them outside. I know I am going back to my first years place to put my jugs - they seemed to do the best there

as for when to buy seeds - ANYTIME you can get them :D - actually a bunch of the seed companies will have seed sales during the summer and alot of us stock up then. CHeck out some of the threads about sales. There a 99cent T&M sale right now. Parks should be having one soon and I am sure it will be announced here on the forum by an excited WSer ......

Lynne

Here is a link that might be useful: T&M Sale

You haven't given enough information as to why your WS efforts where such a failure, but "Old seeds" could account for some of it.

On the other hand, I have sowed seeds that are 5-10 years old with good results.

Since my first year WS, I have had at least 95% success with all my seeds if not higher.

What kind of soil did you use? What kind of containers did you use?

Damping off? I find that all but impossible to believe. I am in a colder zone than you, but I've had close to 800 containers floating in almost 2 feet of water for almost a week as the water drained off in spring and never lost a container of germinated seedlings to damp off and those containers that hadn't germinated still did so.

I've had springs where we had nothing but rain for almost a month, like this past June, and seedlings didn't get in the ground very quickly. I just got the last of them in the ground this past week and haven't lost a one to damp off.

I would suspect insects and critters where doing damage to your seedlings,not damp off.

As for fertilizing your seedlings. Why would you do that? I have never once in 6 years fertilized any seedlings until they are well established in the beds and even then, most times I don't fertilize them and my beds are blooming away.

If you used full strength fertilizer on your seedlings, that could be enough to kill them, even half strength can be too strong, depending on their size.

Could be you killed them off with the fertilizer as well.

It really does sound more like you started seeds indoors and then moved them outside, I've never heard of anyone who has damp of with WS plants.

Fran

I recommend participating in several round robin swaps and buying some interesting seeds from Valueseeds or someplace else that is inexpensive. There is a tremendous savings in doing the round robins.

If you are using 'flats' it sounds like you are not wintersowing, since with wintersowing you need containers that provide at least 3 inches of soil. 'Flats' sounds like the purchased containers that provide small individual containers for each seed. If you haven't already, read the FAQ for this forum.

Becky

Here's a tip for how to deal with fungus gnats. Buy some mosquito dunks, the little donut-shaped cakes that are infused with Bt. Either put one in your watering can and let it sit and soak for a day before watering your seedlings, or, if you bottom-water most of your seedlings by putting them in standing water in a kiddie pool or the like (that's what I do), just put a couple of mosquito dunks in the standing water. It also keeps mosquito larvae from sprouting in the kiddie pool too.

This is a really good way to get rid of fungus gnats on your indoor house plants too. Hope that helps.

I have had the opposite problem - I started off gangbusters with 4 years straight of success, then the last 2 year, I have germination, then nothing else - no growth at all, and then again nothing is dying either - I just can't figure it out. I used to have huge healthy plants in June - now - nothing. Any ideas anyone. I swear I have done everything the same way. So sad - so odd.

Mother nature is to blame for the past 2 years. Our weather the past 2 springs has been strange to say the least.

Here in NE, I'm in zone 5 MA. we had an extremely warm early May, temps in the 80's and 90's, then presto, cool, well below normal temps and rain, rain, and more rain. Rarely did we see a sunny day, and if we did, the temps where in the low 60's and 40's at night.

That isn't conducive to good growing of any kind of seedling.

All of a sudden, we have had sun, and some warm to hot and humid days. Hottest day of the summer so far was yesterday, 85 degrees and very humid.

Last year we had wonderful and warm temps in June, then July came and we had 4 solid weeks of nothing but rain. Then August hit and it was hot and humid from then on and not a drop of rain for close to 2 months where I live.

When it comes to gardening of any kind, we are always at the mercy of mother nature and there is nothing we can do about her but roll with her punches.

Whether we WS our seedlings, start them inside under lights, or buy all are plants, we are still at the mercy of the weather.

My seedlings are still really small, but they are healthy and will start to grow with sun and warm temps.

In the mean time, some of my neighbors that are still stuck on the indoor under lights idea or buying everything in the nurseries or big box stores, have sad, sick looking plants or they have died off from the crazy weather.

Fran

I'm sorry you had so little success. I don't know if it makes you feel better to know that it's very unusual; it's tough for this year, but next year should be great!

Definitely using newer seeds will give you more germination. Like others, I do still use older seeds, but I have plenty of jugs with 0 sprouts. Maybe 20%? This year, if the seed was old or a difficult germinator, I put 2 kinds of seed in. That worked well, and the one time both sprouted, I was able to separate them.

Damping off is pretty much unheard of in WS, but it may have happened to you. Like fb said, it may have been insect damage. It also could have been high heat "melting" the sprouts (which I did indoors with tomato sprouts, and it looked just like damping off). If your tops were off, that's unlikely though. Damping off is unlikely with air movement too, though. We need a forensic microbiologist! Having soil with a good mix of microbes makes damping off less likely, so adding some compost or garden soil to your mix may help you out.

I know a very successful wintersower who uses flats and cellpacks or tiny pots. She's a really good, experienced gardener though, so maybe tiny cellpacks are risky for us average folk. I'm thinking of trying cellpacks next year, although I would tuck them in a bed of dirt, so they don't dry out as fast. Even with watering a lot, yours may have been stressed from drying out all the time and that may have contributed to their demise. Again, just a guess. I hope next year is a huge success, to make up for this year!

Seedwise, the cheapest way to a variety of seeds is trading. Keep an eye open for free seeds on the Seed Exchange forum, and maybe buy a few things at cheapseeds.com. You don't really need a lot to get started with seed trading. Nasturtium seeds, especially different-looking ones, (alaska, milkmaid, etc.), maybe 12 to a trade, are always a draw. Join in some of the group swaps, those are a very good way to get a variety. Or, are you wanting to buy because you're worried about old seed? Some traders post the seed year, or you can go ahead and ask, The group swaps usually specify how old the seeds can be. The ones I didn't get any germination from are almost all things I traded for in 2006 and 2007, and they could have been a couple of years old then. (or things that are tough to sprout)

PS: I did the mosquito dunk thing with my indoor seedlings, and it really worked. Lowe's had the best price on dunks that I found.

Nope. I followed the instructions on here and I read the FAQ. I used soda bottles with about 4" of peat moss and then other soils when that ran out. The FAQ said I could use any soil.

I only fertilized after they had put on several leaves. And I did dilute the ferts. I put about a pinch in a gallon and a 1/2 of water.

I did not start them inside. I sowed them inside so I wouldn' freeze and then moved the bottles outside right away, even before I washed the dirt off my hands.

Damping off follows me everywhere I go. Please don't get started on it because I have tried every remedy and every prevention and the only thing that works for me is commercial products.

Really, I don't want to sound like a jerk but I've had many threads about it where I stated what I've already tried and then people would reply telling me to do things that I had just said that I already did. And other people basically tell me I'm lying if I've done those things and still get it. And then another group of people will suggest that maybe I'm a little blind or a little stupid and that I just think that I followed directions but messed up.

So yeah, I would rather this thread not be about damping off.

Thanks Dawiff, but I tried that a few times when I had a bad case when I brought my plants in for the winter and it didn't work. The nematode that I've seen do the trick is Steinernema feltiae. But it's like $20 per sponge/container or whatever else they put it in.

Our weather has been crazy too. Spring was very warm and either rained for days on end or didn't rain at all. Summer came around and we have the same patterns of rain. But the days are very hot and we've been getting odd cool nights. Like it'll be in the low 90's during the day and in the mid 60's at night.

I don't have much seed to trade, I don't want to be giving people 8 year old seed. And I'm focusing mainly on native plants so I'm looking at native seed companies. I'm doing most of my shopping at a place that has packets for a buck and another place for a buck and some change. And I'm going to try to use up the rest of my old seed.

You used 4 inches of peat moss? Peat moss isn't soil. Neither is seed starting mix (I don't know if you used that, but just in case that is the other stuff you used). You need to use potting SOIL with the ferts already in it -- something like Miracle-Gro potting soil (and not the one with the water crystals). It may say use any soil in the FAQ, but if you read the posts on here, many people have had great success with Miracle-Gro.

What kind of natives are you trying to grow? Have you looked at the lists of seeds that Trudi put in the FAQs? You should read those lists, and the hints that Trudi wrote about how to figure out if this method will work for the seeds you are trying to start. Winter sowing is not for every kind of seed, especially things like native spring ephemerals such as trillium or bleeding heart, which need to be sown with absolutely fresh seed. In this case, fresh seed means seed that is taken straight from the pod and put in soil right away, not stored. And especially not stored for eight years.

1. I don't buy too much, but when I do I buy in November or whenever the fall catalogs come out.

2. I'd never use flats to start....at least not for winter-sowing. These will dry out much too fast and you won't have enough soil per cell to support the growing seedlings for too long.

3. There is more than one pathogen responsible for "dampening-off" both pre-emergence and post-emergence....all do live right outdoors too and will attack and thrive if the conditions are right! Over-crowding, humidity, cloudy, cool OR warm depending on pathogen species and whether in or out.
What is AquaShield? Whatever it is it doesn't sound like a fungicide! If improvement started after use then I suspect damping off wasn't the issue to begin with. Most definitely damping-off is not made better by extra moisture!

I'm pasting a copy of my disease report while a Hort. student on Dampening-off. I just covered 2 of the most common:)

-----------------------------------------------------------
DISEASE PEST REPORT

Common Name: Damping Off

Scientific Name: Phythium spp. and Rhizoctonia spp.
Causal Organism: Fungi
Disease cycle and Timing: Several species occur throughout North America. Damping-off fungi live on organic matter in the soil and most can live indefinitely. Reproduction of the fungi is the most favorable in wet soils that are cool. Usually there are many other beneficial bacteria and other fungi, as well as many microorganisms that keep these harmful fungi under control. In the greenhouse, Rhizoctonia is not found in greenhouse soilless mixes but is often found living on bare ground or floors and in fields. Rhizoctonia is usually more dangerous to younger plants than older. Pythium spp. can favor either low or high temperatures depending on the species. Pythium is mostly a problem in the greenhouse but can attack young transplants when set out in wet soil.
Symptoms and Signs: Sometimes these Damping- off Fungi can attack the seed before they germinate. When seeds fail to germinate in the given germination time-line or there are many sporadic gaps in rows it is possible that the seeds were attacked. With seedlings, the symptoms of Damping-off are fallen-over seedlings at the soil line. A lesion that looks rotted or water-soaked on the stem closest to the soil will be visible. Seedlings that are older when attacked and survive will most often be stunted.
Damage: Loss of seedlings, cuttings and stunted plants.
Cultural, Mechanical, Biological or other Controls: In the greenhouse it is important to keep good air circulation and maintain proper temperatures in germination chambers. Cover flats with sphagnum moss, perlite or sand and allow the surface of flats to dry between bottom watering. Use seed starting mixes that are soil free or use sterile soils mixed with finished compost that add beneficial fungi to the mix. Always use clean flats and containers or used that have been disinfected and work with clean hands and tools. In the field, sow warm season crops after soil has warmed and avoid placing transplants into cool and wet soils. Conditions in the field or home garden that are the most favorable for attack from damping-off fungus are cloudy, cool and humid weather with wet soils that are cool.
Chemical Controls: Copper drenches can be applied to many vegetable crops as soon as any signs of damping-off are noticed. Apply the drench directly to the soil around plants where the problem is occurring. Treating of beds before sowing seed can be done with Methyl bromide with between 1 and 2 lbs. for every 100 square feet. Seed can be pre-treated with metalaxyl or soil in fields can be pre-treated with Ridomil 2E.
References Used:
Insect, Disease & Weed I.D. Guide A Rodale Organic Gardening Book

University of Connecticut  Integrated Pest Management
www.hort.uconn.edu/ipm/veg/htms/mnrdisppr.htm

Plant Disease Control  Oregon State University Extension
http://plant-disease.ippc.orst.edu/articles.cfm?article_id=5

Thanks... but I know what damping off is and it's causes and the pathogens responsible.

Yes, Aquashield is for damping off and works very well.

"You need to use potting SOIL with the ferts already in it -- something like Miracle-Gro potting soil (and not the one with the water crystals). It may say use any soil in the FAQ, but if you read the posts on here, many people have had great success with Miracle-Gro."

But isn't that fertilizing seedlings??

Hmm - good point Ms Mouse - I wait that answer as well.

Peat moss isnt a good seedling medium. You dont need fertilizer to start with, you can always fertlize a few weeks after the seedlings are up.

Pro Mix
Pro Mix
Pro Mix!

You can mix your own if you wanted to, but this is just as convenient. But quite frankly Ive used el cheapo top soil and still got germination before. I wouldnt be suprised on failure from pure peat moss however...

Next year get promix if you can find it. I am fortunate to have a place that carries it year round.

Silverkelt

Using miracle grow potting mix, is partly like fertilizing seedlings but not really.

The fertilizer in the potting mix is a slow release fertilizer that lasts about 3 months when used in pots. It is not the same as using even a dilute strength of fertilizer directly on the seedlings or in the soil.

If you have used the miracle grow potting mix to WS during the winter months, by the time the seedlings germinate, the fertilizer has been basically washed out of the soil from snow melt and rain.

Peat moss does not germinate seeds well, even under lights. Any soil won't work either, nor will top soil.

First year WS, my first 50 containers where done with the cheapest top soil I could get my hands on. Some seeds germinated, but died as the soil turned to solid bricks.
A friend tried peat moss and that was a disaster in 25 containers. The remaining about 800-900 containers where all done with miracle grow potting mix and every single one of those containers germinated, survived to transplant and bloomed through the summer.

From that point on it was miracle grow all the way. I've tried a bit of pro mix and the adding water and all that was just far too much work and to difficult for me to handle. I have to store everything in my cellar, bring it up to my kitchen, mix the promix with water. Far to time consuming for me and a friend who WS with me.

We do a total of about 800 containers every year, doing between 50 to 100 containers at a time.

Much easier to do with miracle grow potting mix, and we feel "if it ain't broke, don't fix." We have close to 100% germination every year from year 1, and this was year 6, using miracle grow potting mix.

Just be sure you do not get the miracle grow potting mix with water retention crystals in it and don't use the miracle grow garden soil either. Seeds won't germinate in that.

By the way, if you are using miracle grow potting mix from March on at the latest, and then you add, even half strength fertilizer to the soil and seedlings, you have over fertilized your seedlings and will very likely kill them off.

Fran

"If you have used the miracle grow potting mix to WS during the winter months, by the time the seedlings germinate, the fertilizer has been basically washed out of the soil from snow melt and rain. "

Um... What's the point of using it then if the fertilizer has been basically washed out by the time they germinate??

Also, what about making your own potting mix?

And third, when are you supposed to start fertilizing?? I don't plan on putting everything in to the ground.

The point of using it is the type of potting mix it is. What little is left of fertilizer that is left will help the seedlings grow. The soil has a good soil to use, holds moisture, but not too much and most importantly, the seeds germinate in them.

I have no time or facility to use to make my own potting mix, nor the time to do so. There are members that do mix their own potting mix.

I use miracle grow potting mix for all my pots and hanging baskets when I plant my seedlings and put a layer of the cheapest bark mulch I can buy at the store on top of the soil. Those plants get all the fertilizer they need for the time they are in the pots. In my zone it's June through September and the fertilizer in the soil is enough for 3 months.

In your zone, if you use the miracle grow potting mix for you containers, I would wait 3 months before adding any fertilizer, since there is 3 months of time release fertilizer in the soil.

I use miracle grow fertilizer for all my plants that are in the ground except for the hydrangeas and daylilies.

Since that has to be mixed in container that attaches to my hose, when I fertilize my plants will depend on mother nature and the amount of rain she has provided.
But I never fertilize any seedlings until they have been in the ground for a few weeks and had a chance to set their roots well into the beds.

This year, has been a tough year to even get the seedlings planted. We have had rain almost the entire month of June and a good part of July. We've had a few days of no rain in July and the seedlings are finally in the ground and starting to grow, but have not fertilized anything yet.

Fran

*****************
"You need to use potting SOIL with the ferts already in it -- something like Miracle-Gro potting soil (and not the one with the water crystals). It may say use any soil in the FAQ, but if you read the posts on here, many people have had great success with Miracle-Gro."

But isn't that fertilizing seedlings??
*****************

*I* never said not to fertilize.

Seedlings have everything they need to get started, it is stored withing the seed. They need no food until they get true leaves. I usually use Pro-Mix without fertilizer, and I don't feed them while still in the jugs. I'm usually planting out into beds once they get true leaves. I try to remember to add some mild organic fert in the planting hole when planting out but don't even always remember to do that. However, my beds are ammended regularly with homemade compost and that probably helps them thrive.

Every year I do have a few jugs that don't sprout but the vast majority do very well. I've never had dampoff with WS seedling but I have had fungus gnats. Mosquito Dunks soaked in water worked well on them.

Both dampoff and fungus gnats result from too much water. You can't control the rain, but I do try to protect from too much water in extremely wet weather. Sometimes I stick them on my porch under roof for a few days during days and days of spring rain, or I have been known to cover them with a plastic tarp. Also lots of big drainage holes are important.

I agree that potting mix is a better choice than peat moss. Potting mixes have perlite and vermiculite for even soil moisture moisture and better drainage and aeration for roots.

And if "weeds took over the pots" I suspect the peat was already contaminated with weed seeds when the containers were planted. I occasionally get a weed from a seed blown in outdoors (mostly maple trees from my neighbor's nearby maple) but there shouldn't be enough seeds floating in the air to "take over" a covered container.

What kind of containers did you use ms minnamouse? Something with a cover? I'm glad to see that you are giving it another shot this year because this really does work so well most of the time.

Karen

I used soda bottles with about 4" of peat moss and then other soils when that ran out. The FAQ said I could use any soil.

Hi Ms_mouse-
From personal experience, I can offer only that fertilizer may have done them in, only because I did it once on fully gown container plants. I used a diluted fert, and they were dead within days. I can only suggest that perhaps the young seedlings can't handle direct fert.

How many years have you tried WSing, and if you had damping off issues in previous years, did you clean the containers well the following year, or use new ones? (Not knowing anything about D-O, I also offer this in my grasping at straws trying to solve this for you. I truly don't know if DO is something that might linger on a container waiting for the next unsuspecting seedling.)

Your covers were off. Check. The issue is post-emergence...wow. This really is a stumper. Do you have any pictures of your setup and the DO issues as they occurred?

I used all new soda bottles with good drainage holes. It could very well have been due to the weather and the moisture retaining property of peat. We did get weeks with solid rain with varying heat and coolness.

I guess I got over excited with the fertilizer by not waiting until everything had true leaves. I'm not planning on putting everything in the ground. Some I want to pot up. Do I just wait until they have true leaves? And what dilution should I aim for? Does Pro-Mix have to be amended? I'm probably going to go for whichever is cheaper, Pro-Mix or Miracle Grow.

And as to my other question, I guess no one has made their own ws sowing mix? Aren't MG and P-M peat based anyways?

Many potting mixes are peat based, but most also contain vermiculite and perlite. You might want to google those to see what advantages they add as potting mix ingredients. Basically you'll get better moisture distribution/drainage/retention, decreased compaction, increased aeration for roots. I love perlite, keep a bag of it on hand and usually even add some extra to commercial mixes. It really makes for a light, fluffy mix.

Some potting mixes also use pine fines in addition to the above. Another good ingredient.

There is a classic thread in the container gardening forum about potting mixes and movement of water therin. It's now in Part 9! and has been ongoing for years here on GW. If you can even make it through part 1 there is a lot of good information. Anyway, in it, Talpa does give his expert recipe for homemade potting mix.

I have used Miracle Grow potting mix successfully but don't love it as much as many members do. I go to local nurseries and ask what they use for seed starting and potting plants and never, ever has one answered Miracle Grow. If you ask to buy what they use they'll most likely be glad to sell you a bag. Usually they have very large bags of professional mixes.

I don't usually fertilize at all while seedlings are in the container. When transplanting I add a little mild organic granular stuff in the planting hole. Works for me. If you must feed before transplant, sticking with a mild one in a very dilute solution is probably best (like a 10 or 20% solution).

You CAN do this.

Karen

Thanks, Karen but I know what vermiculite and perlite are. Vermiculite is a favorite for me when it comes to germinating tropical seed.

For potting purposes (during the summer only) I use peat, manure and perlite for potting mix. It's cheap. During the rest of the year, I use the cheapest but quality potting mix I can find.

Also, don't rule out your local professional nurserymen's favorites. That's how I ended up trying both Fafard and MetroMix and I liked them both. And I like supporting small local businesses as opposed to the big box chains.

Karen

I am "container garden challenged." That is to say that no matter what I try in a container, it dies. The only thing that I've found that works continually for the few containers that I do have is a compost/loam mixture, or all compost. I have this in my whiskey barrels. Things actually live!

I tried using Pro Mix exclusively one year in a container, and that was totally wrong. While good as a seed-starting mix, it isn't for long-term use unless you know how to add stuff to it (like water and ferts) since it has nothing. If it gets neglected, it doesn't absorb water anymore. But most of the issue was with me since I simply don't like to container garden.

Let's talk about the seeds your trying to start again. You mentioned the ones that DID live; what else was in your inventory that failed? Wondering if maybe there are some more challenging varieties that required more TLC than winter sowing provides? Let's see your full list, and maybe there are others here that have grown the things you're trying and can offer up some additional tips.

...backing up to clarify...

"Container" used in the above post is not a winter sowing container.

When I said "container challenged" I meant patio containers, or other larger containers meant as a permanent location of plants.

Pro Mix is perfectly fine in the "Winter Sowing Container."

If someone mentioned this earlier, please excuse me :), I plant my seedlings as soon as they have a true set of leaves, and sometimes before that. Maybe part of your issue is keeping them in containers too long. You will lose a few putting them out early, but I have never had a big problem with that. The roots are tremendously long even at that stage and I think it is healthier for them to be in the ground where the roots can have space.

(I will admit though, that I'm torturing four flats of seedlings by leaving them in their containers...I've lost most of them by now, but the blackberry lilies are hanging on and so is something else. I feel guilty everytime I'm in their vicinity. But now it's too hot to put them in the ground. Where they are is now partial sun.)

Lisa

I make my own WS mix, and I think there are a couple of threads about it.

I dump peat, perlite, aged manure, compost, my sandy soil, old container soil, whatever (not clay soil) into my wheelbarrow and mix it up. Maybe it's 60% peat. It has to be nice and fluffy, that's the key, the exact proportions are not. (and have good drainage, that's the reason for the perlite). The wording of the FAQ is misleading, it can lead people to use dense stuff that is labeled for pots. The dense stuff didn't kill my sprouts, but the sprouts stayed small until I got them out of it.

I get plenty of weeds in the containers, but so do some people who buy commercial stuff. Put out at least one unsown container, those sprouts will help you identify weeds. I always hold off on weeding until I'm sure.

I think the amount of rain you got had a lot to do with the problems, smart of kcq to ask. The drainage holes I put on soda bottles are 1/4" or even bigger. 5 of them. And, if you truly feel you are cursed with dampoff and fungus gnats forever, go ahead and be proactive with your treatments next year. (as in, don't wait to see the problem before you treat for it)