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gardenerzone4

The most impractical piece of rose advice you've ever gotten

gardenerzone4
11 years ago

What is the most impractical piece of rose growing advice/best practice you've ever been given?

For me, it's 1) clearing all diseased foliage from underneath roses each year, and 2) the Minnesota Tip.

One of my rose beds was severely affected this year by BS, so I was told by 2 horticulturalists to rake out the diseased/fallen foliage before winter protecting. I spent an hour trying to rake the foliage out from under just one mega-shrub of 3 Double Delights, the most defoliated by BS. I used a hand rake, my fingers, a cobrahead weeder, all to no avail since the canes crowded in so much that I couldn't get inside of them. I finally gave up and asked my husband to just blow the leaf debris out using a leaf blower. Of course, who knows if that does more good or bad, since that ensured all the BS spores got airborn and blown everywhere, if they weren't so already. I have about 100 roses right now, and I couldn't imagine painstakingly getting all the leaf debris out from under every single rose, even if it makes good scientific sense to do.

Long ago, when I first started in roses, somebody told me about the Minnesota Tip. I thought then and still do now, you've got to be kidding! I'd rather have complete dieback than do all the work of taking the climber canes off of their support, digging up one side of the roots, and digging a trench to bury the canes. That's not to mention undoing it all in the spring. Who has time for that?

Please share impractical advices you've been given, and if you have a practical way of accomplishing any of the "impractical advices", please share the tricks that work for you as well.

Comments (135)

  • cupshaped_roses
    11 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I live in Northern Europe - comparable to USDA Zone 6a costal - the sun intensity is not very high here - max UV index 7 - so roses rare burn here, but on the hottest brightest days. I sprayed the insecticidal soap in the evening (less bees around) - and still the roses were scorched with crispy leaves the following day.
    We do get heavy aphid infestations when the roses are starting to set buds - and this is the time I choose to spray with pyrethrum - before many of the beneficials and the birds really come and help ...then I only do targeted spraying with a little handsprayer on shoots with big clusters of aphids - it works for me. I have chosen not use systemic insectides and instead just pick the roseslugs, but I do loose some good canes to caneborers. But Aphids are the worst here ...and truly make the roses unsightly if not kept in check ...Leafsuckers seem to become a problem in dry hot summers - and then I may spray extra time - escially the underside of the leaves ...

    Even if just took 30 sec. per roseplant - with 700 roses hosing would be way too much work ... The advice about hosing may be for people who have a much lower number of roseplants ...

    I have tried showering some roses that get Powdery mildew - because I have heard it should wash away some of the spores - I do that in the morning/day time so the leaves dries faster - but I am not sure it helps much.

  • aimeekitty
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I'm just thankful that I essentially started my rose learning on this forum and with old garden rose books. So right when I started, I knew I wouldn't be pruning at all for several years and I would probably not be doing any of the hard pruning you see in your typical hybrid tea rose garden. I do have a few hybrid teas but they're a small percentage of the garden.

    I also have started calling them "Old Teas", it tends to help explain. Sadly most people think that all roses are hybrid tea roses and that all roses behave like hybrid teas. It's so limiting...

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  • dan_keil_cr Keil
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    About spraying a fungicide every 7 days, WHAT DOES THE LABEL SAY???
    Now about pruning-- Last year I had growth coming out with the branches at about 4', a lot of that growth wasn't good even though the canes were green . Most people would leave that. Cut into it a little and look at the inside of the stem. Is that color on the inside of the stem a pure creamy color, or is there a little brown? If it's brown cut down a little more till you find good wood. For me the last few years, I was cutting my ht's floribundas, minis, and minifloras down to the ground. After pruning they would jump out of the ground. MY shrubs and ogr
    don't get cut much, unless it has dead wood in it.

    Tommy's fertilizer program--- unless you show roses, your plants don't need that much food. Yes water is more important.
    I live in zone 5b. I grow ht's. The new ones I get I plant the bud union 6' down. I never have to cover these plants.

    Blackspot If you start early in the season and keep up a good fungicide program, you won't have blackspot. When the new growth is coming on for the season start spraying. Once you get blackspot, it's hard to get rid of, and it weakens the plant to lose it's leaves.

    remember with new plants, grow roots first, leaves second, flowers third!

  • buckwild
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Hold the phone! I can grow teas and hybrid teas in zone 5?. Everyone i talk to says, no! Are you crazy? I have read this thread 3 times and see people saying that teas and hybrid teas are different, but not how. how are they different? I could just go about life knowing they are different, but I gotta know why! Also, I don't spray my Griffith bucks, only water the leaves down with water, and it sounds like I made a good choice to not spray them with any chemicals. I am going to add more roses next year, and I'm so excited to start the search for the 4 or 5 to add! Possibly a few teas or hybrid teas????? Any suggestions for zone 5b? Maybe a red and yellow and purple?

  • Zyperiris
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I enjoyed this thread alot. It was Paul Zimmerman's video's that helped me alot. I love to use Miracle Grow..love to spray and spray and spray. Well last year I knew I was over did the fertilizer. I had lots of BS and bugs. This year I am not using as much and my BS is greatly reduced and so are the bugs. I believe less is more

  • jerijen
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    teas and hybrid teas are different, but not how. how are they different?

    *** COMPLETELY different.

    The pedigree of today's modern Hybrid Tea Rose does include Tea Roses . . . And China Roses, and a mish-mash of Gallicas, Damasks, Albas, Foetidas, Giganteas, and every other thing, in a glorious hit-and-miss mish-mash. Tea Roses and China Roses brought the ability to repeat bloom from Asia to Europe.

    They are different in flower form, plant habit, and just about everything else. And the reason they may have trouble in zones where winters are very cold is that they did not evolve to go dormant in winter (as European roses did). Instead, they evolved to slip into a sort of dormancy in hot, dry conditions.

    So, they are ideal for us in the increasingly-arid far western U.S., but for places where hard-freezes are the norm, they may not make it.

    Not that people in such places have never grown Tea Roses or China Roses. They just have to work really hard at it.

    Go read "IN SEARCH OF LOST ROSES," a book which will give you an enjoyable look at the history of roses. Check out Mrs. Keays "OLD ROSES," too. And maybe "THE CHARM OF OLD ROSES" by Nancy Steen.

    That'll start you out . . .

    Jeri Jennings,
    National Heritage Roses Group

  • nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Hi Buckwild

    This thread has been an excellent introduction to how much it doesn't have to be hard to grow roses, and how much it pays to listen to your soil and your roses and other growers in your zone for ideas. In answer to your question about exactly how the teas versus hybrid teas are different, I'll let the rose experts chime in. From a practical perspective, the teas when happy grow to big bushes with lots of twiggy growth at first, with a tendency toward looser flowers (fluffy multiple petal flowers, open semi-doubles, or singles) than the traditional spiral centers we think of when most people say roses (those are some but not all Hybrid teas). In zone 5, I can honestly say don't bother trying Old Garden teas - most of them have old fashioned names like Mrs. Dudley Cross, or Safrano, or Clementina Carbonari. I have about 8 teas that have been in my zone 5 Nebraska garden for at least 4 years, and they're decidedly unexciting, even with faithful winter protection and coddling. You could do it if you want an experiment, but why put your energies into something that won't pay off very well particularly if you're new or have limited space.

    Now hybrid teas are variable in size, come in the same variety of double or semidouble or single flowers, but we CAN grow many of them quite happily in zone 5. A good place to start checking the differences in how these flowers look, as well as reference for any roses you've heard about, is helpmefind.com (hmf-an outstanding resource we should all be supporting). Be aware that they're conservative in what they rate roses at because they depend on input from all of us as growers, so don't be put off if it rates many of the hybrid teas at zones 7 (particularly if it's "default"), but rely on other people such as on this forum that grow roses in your zone. There are some roses that hmf rates at zone 7 that are tip hardy over zone 5 winters, some that die to the ground and regrow well IF a graft is buried at least 2-4 inches below the surface, and some that will not survive my zone 5 winters with any amount of coddling or special locations. You got a great start with Buck roses since Griffin Buck bred his roses to survive to at least -20, and with an exception or two any will be fine in zone 5. There are other HTs that are reliably hardy - for instance, Kordes is another breeder that tends to be reliably hardy in zone 5 - but mostly checking out any particular rose requires some research as well as trial and error.

    Within the hybrid teas, you'll find roses that have the classic "spiral" and high-centered look, but that look can crop up in other types of roses that can grow well in zone 5, like floribundas, shrub roses, and some climbers. Other old fashioned roses that will grow better than Old Garden Teas in zone 5 include Hybrid perpetuals, Bourbons (in a sheltered spot), Species roses, Hybrid Musks, Polyanthas, and all the once bloomers (Albas, Centrifolias, Gallicas, etc). Hybrid teas (HTs) tend to have a stiffer upright growth habit than teas or some of the other types of roses, which leads some people to prefer other rose categories because of a relatively artificial look you can get with HTs, but this can vary a lot with the specific variety or how you prune it. Usually more of the very bright and saturated colors (some would say garish) show up in the HTs and floribundas, but that can vary too, particularly when you're talking hot pink.

    As for specific recommendations for zone 5 reds or purples, you'll have more luck starting a new thread with that as a title, since your question would get lost under this thread.

    Oh, and to continue Mindy's original question in this thread, the most impractical rose suggestion (at least for my garden) that hasn't come up yet in this thread is to always pot up new bands for a year before planting them in the ground. Don't get me wrong, it can be excellent and highly recommended for many of us and undoubtedly makes the roses stronger before they're planted. It's just that it's impractical for me because I simply cannot keep roses alive in pots more than a few weeks. If I potted up my bands all year, I'd have a 0% survival rate. At least in the garden, I get 80-90% of them surviving the summer (yes, a few have too weak a root system to get established), and somewhat better than that if I leave the spindly ones in in the band pots until they get some new growth on them. I do baby new plantings in the ground, particularly if they're bands, but they have a much better shot if Mother Nature has a hand in their care than if it's all up to me.

    Cynthia

  • roseseek
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Buckwild, Teas and Hybrid Teas can be quite different, much of the time, but there can be great overlap. Hybrid Teas were bred from Teas and their hybrids. Add the conditional versus genetic classification to add to the confusion and there is going to be MUCH for "the nit pickers" to take exception to in what I'm about to offer. This is the "Reader's Digest" version, meant only to help simplify an extremely complicated issue for illustration.

    Generally, Teas arose from Gigantea and Odorata hybrids. Hybrid Teas arose from crossing the Teas and early Tea Hybrids with European Hybrid Perpetuals, which arose from the Old European Garden Roses (Bourbons, Damasks, etc.) Teas require thick, old wood to perform and live many generations. Hybrid Perpetuals generally require hard pruning to replenish themselves and produce the size, profusion and quality of bloom they were selected for. Often, Teas are less cold hardy than Hybrid Perpetuals and many Hybrid Teas. Teas tend to be more evergreen than either of the other two classes. Teas were valued for the softness of their coloring and high-centered bloom shape as well as their ability to flower nearly continuously. Hybrid Perpetuals had more bull nosed, rounded bloom shapes and many flowered well in spring with little to no repeat later in autumn. It wasn't until the latter half of the Nineteenth to early Twentieth Century that the Royal National Rose Society had an autumn show because the roses of the day didn't reliably repeat their bloom.

    Teas tend to be more spreading, with weaker, longer peduncles causing the blooms to "nod" or hang downward. HPs tend to have stronger, shorter peduncles which hold the flowers more upright. Crosses between the Teas and HPs resulted in more upright plants with generally stronger peduncles, more upright flowers with higher, more pointed centers. The deeper, richer colors of the HPs were blended with the high-centered form of the Teas. The "Tea scent" generally gave way to much of the Damask and other scents of the HPs and Bourbons.

    Teas and very early HTs are often difficult to root where the HPs and those which lean more toward that side of the family, are generally easier and faster to root. Teas can be devilishly slow to start as own root plants, where those which tend more toward the HP side generally root faster and produce sturdier, faster developing own root plants. Teas were more likely to be afflicted with mildew. The HP side more likely to be afflicted by rust and black spot. Combine the Foetida influence which was considerable at the beginning of the Twentieth Century, and the disease issues were exacerbated.

    Often, HTs will lean toward the Tea side of the family in performance and expressed traits. You have late Teas which are classed as Teas, but are more likely early HTs, such as Lady Hillingdon. She looks and acts like a Tea, but is reportedly far more cold hardy than is usual for the class. Sometimes, a HT will lean more toward the HP side of the family, such as Frau Karl Druschki and Symphony (Weigand, 1935). They look more like HPs but are genetically, by breeding, HTs.

    Teas are more like Mons. Tillier, G�n�ral Schablikine, Devoniensis, etc. Hybrid Teas are more Peace, Double Delight, Brandy, etc. Hybrid Tea flowers can be easily imagined by thinking of a dozen, long stemmed florist roses.

    You have those who classify the plant by how it looks and performs. "If it quacks like a duck, it IS a duck!" You also have those who classify the rose genetically. If it is a cross of two Teas with no Old European Garden Rose contained in it, the plant is a Tea. Take a Tea and cross it with a Hybrid Perpetual, then no matter what it looks like or how it performs, it is a Hybrid Tea. Symphony is classed as a HP because it looks, grows and performs like one, but it is a cross of a Hybrid Tea by what is classed as an HP (but which is by breeding, a Hybrid Tea). When registering a rose, it is up to the person filling in the information as to what the rose should be registered as. From a gardener's perspective, it would be far more beneficial for the "quacks like a duck" classification to be used. If you're expecting a Queen Elizabeth plant and flower and you receive a Lady Hillingdon performing plant, you aren't going to be satisfied. See where much of the confusion comes from?

    If you live in a shorter growing season, harder, longer winter season climate, HTs may do OK for you where Teas probably wouldn't. If you live along the coast here in SoCal or in the Gulf States, Teas may be more suited to your climate than many HTs. Generally, HTs are going to have longer lasting flowers for many climates. They are available in many more colors than Teas, as well as many more sizes, types, habits and scents. If you're looking for cut flowers which can last up to two weeks in a vase, some HTs are usually the way to go. If you're looking for more of the "Old South" look, Teas are it.

    Generally, if you live in a colder climate where winter protection is an issue, avoid those which are advertised as "resents hard pruning" as they will be problems to cover and protect from frost and snow. There are many qualifiers and conditions and none of this is absolute, as is true of most of roses and gardening in general. I hope it helps give you a bit better idea of how Teas and HTs are related, how they can have similarities and what their differences can be. Kim

  • buckwild
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Nippstress, roseseek, jerijen, thank you all so much for the brilliant information! I was dizzy trying to make sense of what I was reading! :) I can confess that I know next to nothing about roses, as I am a first year grower and just recently started reading and posting in this forum. I many nights and days fall asleep hunting for info and get stuck reading something interesting. Thank you for saying that I have a good start with the Bucks (enchanted autumn and prairie star), because I did a lot of research on which roses to purchase for my zone, and my tastes of course, to come up with the two that I ordered from chamblees. I think that they are beautiful and I am going to be adding more next year. What is the timeline to plant in zone 5? April ,last frost to end of may? And does anyone have any ht's that do well in southeast south Dakota? Thank you for the posts you 3! It is incredible how different they are and how confusing it can in fact be! To speak a minute on the orginal post, the worst advice I have gotten from someone is from a local nursery worker who told me "not to bother" with roses and grow something worthwhile...uh huh. I wish he could see the beauty that I see when I look at them. I almost wrecked my car ltast week because I past a house that had some beautiful specimens that I could not take me eyeballs off of!

  • roseseek
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    You're welcome Buckwild! To be fair, I've been where that nursery person stood and dealt with way too many who wanted, but had no idea how to accomplish what they wanted. In severe situations where something MIGHT be possible, with HEAVY levels of effort and work, most of the time it fails because of the level of commitment. It is kinder not to encourage it unless you can somehow be convinced the person is dead set on accomplishing it. Too often most people don't retain everything that's necessary and find they omit important steps, leading to failure. Or, they take short cuts they really shouldn't, causing them to fail and resulting in either "roses being too difficult", or the nursery person being dishonest or not knowing what he's talking about.

    You might consider contacting the people who grow the specimen you found so attractive, ask them what varieties the ones you particularly liked are and if they do anything special to grow them there. Like the old Packard automobile advertisements of 70+ years ago advised, "Ask the man who owns one!" If they are near where you are and should be expected to experience the same conditions, their advice would hold far more value than what most of us could suggest. We can theorize, but he DOES it. Good luck! Kim

  • RpR_
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    The only impractical items I find here are those who seem to tell others not to try so hard, especially concerning black spot; whereas at the same time when speaking of black spot the actually type of roses seems to be ignored and and one size fits all, not to mention one's style of gardening, is too broadly applied.

    I have two gardens, one in zone 3 and one in zone 4 where I grow/grew most hybrid teas and grandifloras.

    It is hard to find information on over-wintering roses up here as I have never found more than a few paragraphs dealing with it, which means few to none up her are writing about, or they simply say there are others than hybrid teas for the north gardens.

    I have spent hours upon hours trying different prep methods for winter and found some that work very well but there seems to be always a new gremlin that crawls out of the wood-pile. What makes it worse is one never knows if it is a one year glitch or common.

    This year I got tired of babying along a few roses and let them kick the bucket what used to be my large garden is less than half what it once was.
    At the same time, while uncovering my roses this spring, I grabbed on and heard a pop and suddenly I was holding the entire rose about six inches out of the ground as the main stem below the graft had snapped leaving a few roots.
    I said damn, literally jammed it back in the ground, add ed a little dirt and moved on.
    It is now one of th e healthiest roses in the garden with beautiful blooms.

  • seil zone 6b MI
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Everyone here has given you great information about roses and growing them but a lot of what you need to learn can only come with time and experience in YOUR garden because everyone's yard is different. You need to not be afraid to try things and experiment. Every one I talked to when I decided to grow and winter (outside, not in a garage) roses in pots in Michigan said I was crazy. They would all die. I didn't care and tried it anyway. The first year I bought very inexpensive bagged roses at big box stores to experiment with so if it didn't work out I wouldn't have lost a big investment. This is the 7th summer with my patio pot garden and I still have some of those cheapie roses and they're doing great!

    If you really want to grow HTs give it a try. Yes, some of them will probably die but some of them may thrive too! Even the location within your own yard will make a difference. Look for places that are warm spots and have some wind protection and plant a couple HTs and see what happens!

  • buckwild
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Seil, I have gotten tons of great advice from this forum, and I soak all of it up and have also done most of my research myself. You might remember my post about my buck roses in April, you should see enchanted autumn now! It has more than doubled in size and I half fertilized like you recommended. They are doing great! I understand that most of my answers can be found on my own garden with my own experience, but asking questions and getting feedback is partly what this forum is for! I have read a ton of threads with your posts in them and I think your advice is brilliant! It makes sense to me, so I always enjoy coming across your name. I will continue to ask questions and hope for good feedback. As to to what roseseek said, a lot of people don't want to put the work into doing everything they should or follow the advice they manage to squeeze out of someone, I however, don't know a soul locally who grows roses, and obviously my local nursery will not offer any advice, so I rely on the Web soley for myself. I would love love love to meet someone in zone 5, southeast south Dakota who would like to be annoyed by all my novice questions! I think for now seil, until I get some more experience, am going to get some more buck roses and maybe a few other own root until I feel comfortable enough to spread my wings a little more with hybrid teas.

  • JessicaBe
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Thank you from the bottom of my heart for this.

  • altorama Ray
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    The most impractical (for me) advice I have gotten is "Don't bother growing roses in part shade." I am SO glad I didn't listen, my Albas, Ramblers, Polyanthas, Hybrid Musks were always covered with blooms-even my Large Flowered Climbers did great. Plenty of roses will bloom well in part shade- you just need to research which ones do well in those conditions. I I I did not have many problems with disease either.
    Now I have a new garden that has over 6 hours of sun a day. Yes, I notice that some of the roses have more blooms-but I would not trade the 10 years of growing roses in that part shade garden. I loved those roses and enjoyed taking care of them.

    Last week I read in the paper that "The biggest mistake rose growers make is watering them in hot weather." What???

  • roseseek
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Amazing at the "advice" which gets repeated so constantly it becomes "legend" and "fact", isn't it? What, are you supposed to wait until it rains to water? LOL! Kim

  • nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Oh, absolutely altorama! I have an entire bed of hybrid musks and shrubs and polys and other roses that tolerate shade (Larry Daniels, Heritage, Pink Gruss an Aachen) and they're blooming nonstop! It's odd to see roses coexisting happily with hostas and hydrangeas, but they don't seem a bit unhappy as long as I pick roses that tolerate those conditions. The winner so far has been Petite de Terre Francee (sp?) which I got from Cliff when he split up his gardens that has been absolutely amazing. I'll have to post pictures when the heat lets up a little.

    Cynthia

  • floridarosez9 Morgan
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Roses won't grow in central Florida. I would love for those people to see my teas and Chinas.

  • sandandsun
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I'd like to add these ideas presented to me in the thread linked below.
    The idea that landscaping roses mean Knockout or Icebergs.
    And the idea that roses discussed on the Antique Roses forum are once bloomers.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Landscape/Garden Roses

  • KnoxRose -7a
    7 years ago

    I absolutely love this thread, so I'm bringing it back. The most impractical and untrue piece of advice I've ever been given (I know this is a common one) was that I needed to buy only grafted plants, as any rose on their own roots would be a weak grower and not thrive. Well, I have to say that even with my limited gardening experience, I can already tell that this is nonsense. I know for some Hybrid Teas and other fineky roses this may be the case, but it should not be a blanket statement made for all roses. I have some own root plants that were purchased as bands from online nurseries that are about to surpass my grafted roses that were purchased earlier in the same year, as 3 gallon grafted plants from my local nursery.

    I have also learned that I should not blindly trust anyone that claims to be a "rose specialist". The best and largest local nursery's "rose specialist" was one of many that gave me the above advice. On top of that, upon realizing that one of the roses I purchased from this nursery had Rose Mosiac Virus I went back and asked this person what they thought about it & how this would affect the health of this rose yadda yadda, and she had never even heard of Rose Mosaic Virus, and said "we would never sell you a plant with a virus", basically implying that it must have aquired it after leaving their care. Well thanks to this amazing forum and it's incredibly knowledgable members I already knew that the infection occured when the rose was grafted and not afterward, so I immediately knew that I should take any further advice from this "specialist" with a grain of salt. ( I will probably not be seeing her much now anyway as I likely won't be buying any more roses from this nursery unless it is a special circumstance, to be the "best in the city" and not know about RMV just makes me wonder what other questionable practices must be going on there. Also, they only sell grafted plants here anyway)

    I have also learned that less is more in terms of care, and that natural cures are usually the better ones. It makes me sad to see some people pushing these harsh chemical fertilizers & pesticides on rose newbies, convincing them that these things are necessary to the survival of their roses, when in fact they usually cause more harm than good.

    I've really enjoyed reading the above responses, I am so thankful to have found this forum when I did, as it was very early on in my rose growing career, I would hate to have lost some roses due to some of this terrible advice that I would have blindly followed as I did not know any better when I first started. Thank you to all of you who are frequent posters & givers of good advice, it is because of you that I have the wealth of variety that I now have in my garden & I would go as far to say that my roses are alive and thriving today because of you. You all have taught me almost everything I know about these plants I love & cherish so much. I can't say thank you enough.

    Jessica

  • Rosefolly
    7 years ago

    Re Tea vs Hybrid Tea, when I talk about roses I refer to Teas as True Teas or Heirloom Teas. I think it helps. I'm not sure people really remember, but at least they get the idea there there are two different kinds of tea roses!

  • dan_keil_cr Keil
    7 years ago

    Dinglehoppe 3r where you went wrong is you didn't ask the American Rose Society and ask them!

  • KnoxRose -7a
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Dan, I'm a little confused about what you mean. I spoke to the nursery worker because I wanted to share the information that they had infected rootstock and ask them if they noticed any difference in these roses compared to their others. I didn't even really need to know the answer, as I had my answers from this forum before I asked, I mostly just wanted to see what they would say about the fact that they sold me a rose with RMV. Also I'm not a member of the ARS, they are a valuable organization, I just don't see eye to eye with them on some topics so I don't want to pay for a membership with them, especially when the huge amount of helpful information from multitudes of different gardeners on this site is free & at my fingertips at any moment I please.

  • seil zone 6b MI
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    This is a great old thread just chock full of good info and debunking so many myths. I really enjoyed re-reading it!

  • dan_keil_cr Keil
    7 years ago

    Dinglehoppe3r I was talking about the first part of your message! The information on this site might be free , but not always what you need for where you live! No one in California can tell you that a certain rose is good when you live out East!

  • KnoxRose -7a
    7 years ago

    oh ok! I definitely agree that some advice is really only regionally specific, thankfully I have found a few people around here who are in climates similar to my own whose posts I always look forward to reading since our conditions are fairly similar. I love reading posts from folks in California or anywhere that isn't here in the southeast regarding other things such as pruning & training & planting techniques, general rose care, color combinations, rose breeding, etc. it is interesting to read how your climate can effect a rose, it helps me choose where to plant things within the tiny micro climate that is my yard. If someone from Cali says a rose I'm thinking of buying does well for them the thing I take away from that is i know it can stand up to the heat of the full sun, which in some parts of my yard can be brutal in mid to late summer.

    I also like that most of the questions I had, someone else has already asked and I just have to find the right thread for the answer. If I had to write to someone every time I had a question, I'd be blowing up their email to the point that it would be obnoxious. I love that the questions I do ask here become discussions with input from folks of all walks of life and gardening styles & I can pick and choose what advice applies to me & my preferences, having many sources of input & encouragement gives this site a feeling of community that I really like. Having said that, thank you for your input, I didn't realize that the ARS had a place on their site where you could submit a question & receive a response from a rosarian familiar with my area at no cost. If I ever have a really tough or specific question I will submit it to them and see what kind of response I get!

    Cheers!

  • diane_nj 6b/7a
    7 years ago

    For clarity, anyone can contact an ARS Consulting Rosarian (CR), either via phone or the ARS web site. You don't have to be a member of the ARS or a local society, and we are not allowed to charge a fee. The district web sites will have a more complete list of CRs supporting a particular area. Also, many local rose societies have an "ask a question" feature, again, you don't have to be a member to ask a question. :-)

  • jacqueline9CA
    7 years ago

    I have given up on advice from the ARS, after years and years of reading in the ARS magazine about how everyone has to spray everything for fungus AND "bugs" every two weeks, seeing pruning advice for "roses" that ONLY is appropriate for hybrid teas, etc. Some of the folks at my local ARS know better, but nonetheless they put on a "pruning demonstration" every year without any reference to the fact that, if the recommended actions were taken with many OGRs they would kill them (removing all "twiggy" growth on a china?). They have a lovely rose garden, but most of the roses are ripped out every year or so to make room for the newest ones. The saddest thing is that our climate is MEDITERRANEAN, and great for chinas, teas, hybrid musks, polyanthas, and banksias, and not so great for HTs, and they do not feature these roses at all in their advice. Membership is declining, I wonder why?

    Jackie

  • diane_nj 6b/7a
    7 years ago

    Jackie, I raise the same questions. Members of my local society (and our CRs) don't have a "cookie cutter" approach. We ask about a person's growing preferences, including use of pesticides, before making recommendations on roses. When I give talks on roses, I make sure to tell them that the literature is "hybrid tea" heavy, and things like "pruning out canes thinner than a pencil diameter" is not applicable to all roses. They have to get to know their roses. I like to encourage new (and experienced) rose growers to reach out to a local resource who might be able to help, in additional to online sources. YMMV

  • dan_keil_cr Keil
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Jackie,

    I am the American Rose Societies Question and Answer Person. I can guarantee you, I'm not telling folks to use chemicals, UNLESS they need it. . I am not going to rid out 500 roses because I get blackspot once in a while. I just use a preventative fungicide program and keep it off my plants.

    If you live where the climate will limit you as to what roses to plant, then plant what will grow good for you!

    The American Rose Magazine is produced and is sent out all over the US and some parts of the World. The last time I read an issue, there were Organic articles in it.

    No Consulting Rosarian will give a general pruning recommendation.. My first question is what kind of rose do you have and where do you live????

    Give us a second chance!!!!

    PS people don't like Hybrid Teas anymore, Can you say Knock Out!!!!!

  • henry_kuska
    7 years ago

    Well, we just had an example of a consulting rosarian saying: " Blackspot is a very bad disease that will not be taken care of organically . "

    The ARS web page states: "

    There are also organic methods of controlling Blackspot. Baking soda has been tried as a cure and as a preventative measure. It was found that using baking soda and spray oil mixed with water as a spray can damage roses if it is not mixed in the proper proportions. It was also found that baking soda gave only moderate control of Blackspot, but appeared to be effective as a preventative. There is a new product coming on the market that has been used by our local Rose Society that does show promise. This product is derived from the Neem tree. It is called “Rose Defense” by The Green Light Co. One other way to prevent Blackspot is to plant roses that are disease resistant. There are some roses that have some resistance built into their genes. But remember, they are Resistant not Immune. They still need to be sprayed on a regular schedule.

    Roses should be kept on a regular spray schedule regardless of which method is used. Remember, prevention is the key to controlling Blackspot."

    http://www.rose.org/rose-care-articles/what-is-blackspot/

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Apparently the Consulting Rosarian Manual recently went through a small update. I just ordered the revised copy (for non members it has to be sent by mail, not downloaded (only $10. plus shipping). If anyone has it does it say anything about organic methods for blackspot?



  • dan_keil_cr Keil
    7 years ago

    Henry,

    How many years have you been growing roses??? I have been growing roses for 40 years. I have used everything

    . I used Green Cure the week before Labor Day. A week later I had black spot.

  • littleblackbat
    7 years ago

    So, maybe this is a bit off topic, but what does work best for black spot? I just ordered some sulfur based spray, and I'm getting ready to pull all the infected leaves off tomorrow. I hope I don't need to use anything harsh to get it under control.

  • henry_kuska
    7 years ago

    dan_keil_cr I started growing roses in the early 70s. My maximum was about 1000 roses in a no spray northern Ohio garden. Why are you asking me? I did not write the article that I quoted from the ARS web page.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The following was stated: ". I used Green Cure the week before Labor Day. A week later I had black spot."

    H. Kuska comment: I am surprised that you are concerned about blackspot in September after one organic spraying.

    Since you represent yourself as a current consulting rosarian (I resigned many years ago), I assume that you have the manual. What does it say about organic methods?

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    This is what another consulting rosarian is quoted as stating:


    "Use natural products. For problems like black spot, powdery mildew and rust, spider mites, aphids, whiteflies, scale, beetles and other insects, he recommends Rose Defense by Green Light, mixed according to directions. It's a natural, broad spectrum spray with an extract of neem oil, which is derived from the neem tree. Neem oil products are effective as a fungicide; they also help control chewing insects but don't harm beneficial insects. Spray the entire plant, including the undersides of leaves, starting at pruning time and repeating at 14 day intervals, he says. If problems persist, increase spraying at seven-day intervals. Do not use when temperatures are above 85 degrees because you could cause leaf damage."

    http://articles.dailypress.com/2010-05-12/news/dp-fea-roses-0513-20100512_1_all-america-rose-selection-hybrid-tea-roses

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I am not quoting the Neem recommendation as my recommendation. I am quoting it to indicate that there are differences of opinion even among consulting rosarians.



  • fduk_gw UK zone 3 (US zone 8)
    7 years ago

    H'mmm. Going back to the topic of the thread, I've heard a lot of the discarded advice above, but the piece de resistance for me was the advice given to me at a rose show in my area, when I was very very new to gardening. It was that roses could never ever, be grown anywhere in the potential root zone of a tree. Too much competition. I timidly inquired if it was a light problem, and "No!" came the authoritative reply, "the roots! And roots can extend much further than the canopy. You might manage to grow some in pots but they never do as well. Give up the idea of roses or move to a better area."

    As there were and are several large, well established trees in my garden and my neighbours, that was a bit crushing. Fortunately my common sense kicked in after a little bit and I remembered that people actually grow enormous roses up into trees, so that could not be completely accurate. But I will never forget how confident that person was; they also prescribed a weekly spray programme with utter certainty. I now know that asking exhibitors for advice was probably not the best place to start, when wanting to grow mixed bed garden roses!


  • henry_kuska
    7 years ago

    For deer you may want to try sacrificial plants.

    " She also plants sacrificial offerings such as calendula and clover along the perimeter of the garden, ...."

    http://www.canadiangardening.com/how-to/pests-and-diseases/deer-proof-your-garden/a/1574

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&authuser=0&gws_rd=ssl#newwindow=1&hl=en&authuser=0&q=deer+away+from+garden+sacrificial+plants&spell=1

  • henry_kuska
    7 years ago






    "Symptom: Dark black spots on the leaves. The spots

    tend to be round, varying in size from pinpoint to

    quarter-sized. Half of leaf yellows or leaf drops

    completely from the plant.

    Cause: Black Spot - this is a fungus favored by rainy

    weather or improper watering.

    Remedy: Sprays-Dusts-Watering Technique. Begin in

    winter with a dormant lime-sulphur spray. Remove

    dropped leaves and other debris. Spray with a sulphur based

    fungicide on a rotational basis. The fungus

    spores are on leaf undersides so spray up from

    underneath. Spray in the early morning when weather

    is calm and cool. When watering, keep foliage dry or

    water in the morning so foliage dries by midday."

    http://test.ars.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/CR-MANUAL-2012-FINAL1.pdf

  • deervssteve
    7 years ago

    My deer call sacrificial plants, 'appetizers'. I had a section of agapanthus which were suppose to be deer resistant. They didn't touch them for over 25 years and now they regularly check for new growth. I had a neighbor that put a tub of apples down by a creek bed in hope of diverting them. It became just another stop on the buffet trail. I moved into my house in 1985 and there were 2 or 3 mature rose bushes with no protection. I got the rose bug and planted more each year until I had about 200 after 3 years and it wasn't until then that I had a deer problem. Last year they ate all my poison oak and I was grateful. This year they didn't touch it. I'm not dealing with big herds of deer. I have what are called urban deer that are in small groups and stay put.

  • henry_kuska
    7 years ago

    "Reducing Deer Damage to Woody and Herbaceous Plants

    James Lutz*, Dept. of Horticultural Science, 1970 Folwell Ave., Univ. of Minnesota,

    St. Paul, MN 55108.

    Woody and herbaceous plants in urban and rural landscapes, nurseries, orchards,

    and Christmas tree plantations are becoming increasingly susceptible to

    deer damage. Most existing repellents are either ineffective, or are effective for

    short periods of time. This project presented four plant species treated with chicken

    eggs, Deer-Away, Hinder, Tree Guard, Milorganite, chicken eggs with Tree Guard,

    and chicken eggs with Transfilm, to 20 captive white-tailed deer (Odocoileus

    virginianus). Only chicken eggs alone and Deer-Away deterred deer from feeding

    on the containerized nursery stock. Chicken eggs alone performed significantly

    better than Deer-Away. In a second experiment, pelletized deer food treated with

    Deer-Away, Hinder (1:1 and 1:5), Tree Guard, Miller Hot Sauce (0.62% and 6.2%),

    and two experimental predator urines were presented to ten captive deer. Both rates

    of Miller Hot Sauce and predator urine #1 significantly reduced deer feeding on

    pelletized deer food. Deer-Away, Hinder 1:1, and predator urine #2 also reduced

    feeding. Hinder 1:5 slightly reduced feeding. Tree Guard was completely ineffective."

    http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/30/4/830.4.full.pdf

  • altorama Ray
    7 years ago

    I was told not to bother growing roses in part shade. Glad I didn't listen.

  • henry_kuska
    7 years ago

    " Abstract: Browsing by overabundant herds of white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) can

    cause signifi cant economic damage to agricultural crops and landscape plantings. In many

    instances, for both commercial growers and homeowners, commercially available repellents

    may be an appealing alternative to physical exclusion and lethal control of animals. We tested

    10 different commercially-available repellents (Chew-Not®, Deer Off®, Deer-Away® Big Game

    Repellent, Plantskydd®, Bobbex®, Liquid Fence®, Deer Solution®, Hinder®, Repellex®

    systemic tablets, and coyote urine) on yews (Taxus cuspidata Densiformis) at 2 different

    locations in Connecticut. The study included both positive (fence) and negative (no treatment)

    controls. We planted yews in 2 blocks at each location in the spring of 2006; each block had

    12 groups of 6 yews. We randomly assigned one of the 12 treatments to each group of yews

    within each block. We applied repellents based on manufacturers’ label recommendations for

    the 2006 and 2007 growing seasons and recorded application costs. We derived a protection

    index based on plant size and dry needle weights at the end of the 2007 growing season.

    In general, repellents that required more frequent application performed better. Bobbex®

    ranked highest, but was the most expensive repellent treatment. Hinder® performed nearly

    as well at a fraction of the cost. Yews protected by Repellex®, Deer Solution®, coyote urine,

    and Plantskydd® were the same size as unprotected controls at both sites and did not have

    signifi cantly more needles. No repellents prevented 100% of browse damage. The choice

    of repellent usage is a trade-off among effectiveness, cost, ability to follow recommended

    reapplication interval, and plant to be protected."

    http://berrymaninstitute.org/files/uploads/pdf/journal/spring2010/HWC_4.1%20sp2010.pdf#page=60

  • henry_kuska
    7 years ago

    Also concerning deer.

    Title: Control of Deer Damage with Chemical Repellents in Regenerating Hardwood Stands ......see page 127 (or use your PDF find command with the keyword deer )

    This is a big file (long load).

    http://www.nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/gtr/gtr_nc243.pdf#page=135

























































































































































































































  • deervssteve
    7 years ago

    Would you believe I tried all of those mentioned.

    Starting with predator urine. I was out spraying mountain lion piss (not self gathered) one evening and the deer walked right up to me to figure out what the smell was. Coyote was also ineffective.

    Hot pepper oil. It worked but in the spring time before the drought when we had frequent rains, I would apply it to 200 bushes, it would rain and I would have to apply it again, rain again, apply again. This is at the point I surrendered.

    I had also tried blood meal, milorganite and commercial egg based deer repellants unsuccessfully.

    Fast forward 25 years. I had one rose Reine De Violettes that despite having been eaten every year had survived. I decided to experiment again with the egg based deer repellant. I sprayed it constantly and for a year it was left alone. I decided with this success to plant 4 HT. I had a premixed spray bottle of repellant and sprayed very frequently. The foliage on the HT looked like **** and one day they all suffered some deer damage. Out of desperation and stubbornness I made deer cages and the problem was mainly solved. They still can get at a little bit of the foliage, but the damage is extremely minimal and they get very few buds. After a year of success, I planted 4 more bushes and built a cage for each one. The cages are flimsy and I found out that anchoring was not necessary. I had also tried deer netting and posts, but it was a pain to have to remove the netting to access the roses. The cages lift off. I transplanted RDV to my slope and caged it along with buff beauty.

    Most of the other old garden roses and climbers that had survived were too tall for the deer and on large tea rose needed to have a stake to support each cane to keep the deer away from the buds.

  • Samuel Adirondack NY 4b5a
    7 years ago

    Deer Steve. Did you try milorganite ? I bet that would do it.

  • deervssteve
    7 years ago

    Yes, I tried milorganite. The bag use to say "from the sewers of Milwaukee".

    It gave the yard a definite aroma, but the deer could care less.

    The only guaranteed method is making the roses inaccessible to the deer; fence, cage, height. Many things will work for a short time including motion activated lights and sprinklers, but the deer will eventually ignore them. My yard is not suitable to fencing. If I had a sunny area out back, I would fence off an area and have a gate and peace of mind.

  • henry_kuska
    7 years ago

    Concerning deer. You could try adding a silicate to your rose garden soil. I remember reading that there is a valley out west that the buffalo avoid grazing in due to the high silicate content in the grass (near Yellowstone?). I tried Googling it but did not find anything specific to buffalo but I did find this.

    http://scotland.forestry.gov.uk/woodland-grazing-toolbox/habitat-condition/assessing-habitat-condition/palatability/upland-field-layer-species

    Tufted Hair-

    grass

    Deschampsia cespitosa

    The coarse leaves have a high silica content, and mature leaves are usually avoided by herbivores. As a result, D. cespitosa may thrive as a weed of lowland cattle pasture. However, young foliage may be eaten by horses and rabbits, and in upland areas, where leaves tend to have less silica, the species is grazed freely by cattle, sheep and deer.

    Grime, Hodgeson and Hunt, (1990

  • Jeannie Cochell
    7 years ago

    Wow, it's been a few years since I posted on this but just in case some of you missed it... where you live determines whether some advice is beneficial or not. Again, I live in the low desert, next-door-to-Hades, perpetually drought-laden area called Phoenix, AZ. No, we don't plant roses under trees because they all fight for the same water and nutrients... at less than 7" annual rainfall, everything is fighting for the same moisture. We can't spray chemicals most of the year because it was 100F by May 1 and we'll still be dealing with 100F days in October. This certainly limits any black-spot outbreaks. No deer but we get lots of rabbits and the occasional javalina. A local Consulting Rosarian should always be preferential to what you glean off the internet from so-called experts who have no experience with your climate and growing conditions. The ARS does a great job forwarding questions to the cyber CR's, IMHO.

  • lucyd_58
    7 years ago

    A rosarian said to prune the heck out of my roses. I have mostly shrubs so I'm used to a lot of flowers. Suffice it to say I didn't appreciate the vast reduction in blooms. Maybe that's just for HT's, like she grows. Being that I'm not interested in spraying every week like she does, I grow carefree, disease-free shrub roses.

  • dan_keil_cr Keil
    7 years ago

    When pruning, the inside of the cut of the stem dictates how far to prune. The inside of the stem should be a creamy white color. IF not keep going down. The new growth will not be supported, if the wood is not good. Almost every rose I have got cut to the ground because of the winter we had. My plants are coming up good. The only rose I have that didn't get cut are my Species Rugosa's HARD PRUNING WILL NOT HARM THE PLANT.
    You said shrubs/ Knockouts were cut to the ground this year, so were my English roses. The nice thing about shrubs is they are on their own roots, well most of them are!!!
    I lost my OSO Happy rose.