The only thing that might possibly interest me in rejoining would be seeing it move in a direction of "community service"--an idea which was extolled by a forward thinking genius who, unfortunately--but certainly understandably--doesn't visit here anymore.

I'll step right off the cliff and say that it seems to remain a mutual admiration society according to the evidence and accounts I've seen.

I'm know there are exceptions scattered about the country and that's a fine thing--so please don't write.

Questions to ask oneself might include:

Why am I considering this?

What can I bring to the group?

If I bring something to the group will the group value it or dismiss it?

What does the group want?

What is their history of outreach and civic involvement?

Is there a public rose garden which they've created or maintain?

Is the group merely a social extension of some other group?

MichaelAT

Great questions, MAT. I totally agree.

This question keeps on showing up and it seems to bring out the nastyness in a bunch of people. I'll just say this. You'll get out of the ARS what you want to get out of it. Nothing is perfect by any means (look at our own Government and how it runs). Take the good and use it. If you don't like something, vote and TRY to change things. I've been an ARS member for a few(?) years. Since the rose is our national flower, I'll be a member of a group of folks that try to spred the word about roses. Don't forget, being a member of the ARS is MY!!!!! choice. No one forced me to do anything.

You'll get out of the ARS what you want to get out of it.....If you don't like something, vote and TRY to change things.

You are kidding, aren't you?

I don't see the ARS making the changes that I would like.
I like our local rose society, but I don't understand why the ARS does not become more of a leader in programs like pest control, developing or supporting the development of disease free roses, and showing more gardens up close. Those are things I have wanted for years and years, and what I see in the magazines are distant gardens that you cannot focus on, and the ever so perfect bloom. I think it is a real honor to be in the magazine, and as much as I don't want to take away from the winners, I would like to see Dr. Stephen George's name in the magazine. I wonder what they are doing in his University as far as developing disease free roses. What about the descendants of Buck and Basye?

My membership comes up in around 3 months, and I am not sure what I will do.

Sammy

i find the cost high as compared to what i personally would get out of it. i always think how many new bushes i could buy for the cost of joining...i learn alot more on the forums, and my impression, (could be wrong) is that they're geared mostly for people that want to show roses..which is fine, just not my thing. donna

I left the ARS a few years ago and I havent looked back. The only advantage I had for joining was the magazine. The magazine had turned into nothing but ads or promotions for new roses that couldnt make it on their own. The magazine was only worth a 10 minute read then tossed aside. As michaelalreadytaken has said it has become a mutual admiration society. By not being a part of the circle, I received nasty comments from the NY regional director in public for having to resign a position I could no long accomplish. I voted with my money and left ARS and found other use for money other than for a society where the top people think that the members are there to serve them.

I really have mixed feelings. I can live without the magazine though I feel it's improved. I certainly wouldn't spend $49 for it. It seems that the rose research library and the garden, which is now going to be in collaboration with the Heritage Rose Foundation, may be worth contributing to. I guess that's how I'm looking at it now.

When I joined life memberships were $300, so I signed up for life. I've gained lots of knowledge from the ARS, attended quite a few conventions, and met lots of new friends. I feel my membership was worth it. I went places and toured gardens I would never have otherwise.
But, at today's prices $49 single,$46 senior, and with my current fixed income, I could not afford to join. If you can afford it and will take advantage of the valuable benefits, I encourage you to join.
They do seem to be less exhibitor oriented.
Although they still lean towards hybrid teas, they are supplying info on mini floras, shrub roses, hardier and disease resistant types more and more.
Regarding the hybrid tea, Most American rose buyers shop for what they consider a rose to look like and that is the high centered hybrid tea. For the ARS to not have available so much information regarding the hybrid tea would not be meeting the vast majority of the public's needs.
We (Rose Forum members) often fail to remember we make up a very small percentage of the rose buying public. It's not all about us.
As people get into roses they discover the beauty of all classes and varieties.
Hybridizers are trying to get fragrance back into roses in response to public demand.

The Benefits of ARS Membership Include:
The American Rose bi-monthly magazine with excellent feature articles by rosarians recognized for their knowledge and success.
The American Rose Annual which provides up-to-date, scientific information on roses and rose culture, plus articles of general interest to rose lovers, published as your December issue of American Rose.
The Handbook for Selecting Roses, your annual rose ratings guide to thousands of roses in commerce.
ARS Members receive discounts from our Member Benefits Partners.
Listings of mail order nursery sources for all commercially available roses.
Free admission to The Gardens of the American Rose Center, year 'round, and automatic membership in the American Horticultural Society's Reciprocal Garden Admission Program allowing you free admission to more than 100 select gardens and horticultural events throughout the United States.
10% discount on all ARS catalog merchandise and special offers, too.
Two National Conventions each year to provide you an excellent opportunity to network with other rose lovers.
A Miniature Rose National Conference each year featuring the best in miniature roses.
As the International Registration Authority for Roses, Rose Registrations and New Introductions are part of our business. We keep you informed of the latest roses as they become available.
Special interest bulletins, published quarterly, to further inform and instruct you on a variety of topics:
Members-only American Rose Society US Bank Credit Card. This beautiful card featuring a rose photo benefits ARS each time you use it through a contribution made by U.S. Bank to the ARS. (Offer subject to credit approval.)
A top-rated Web Page offering the latest news from ARS headquarters, on-line Consulting Rosarians, beautiful rose photos and much more.
And, the knowledge that member support of ARS makes possible valuable research at leading Universities, devoted to something you care very much about -- our National Floral Emblem -- the Rose.

Karl, that is a remarkable tribute to the ARS. I appreciate your well organized explanation of the benefits of a membership in the ARS, yet admitting the financial disadvantage.

Sammy

well i think it's worth having around just for the records rose patents, archives if nothing else. i don't plan on hybridizing any roses, but i think it might be essential for any new introduction roses i might wish to buy.so what's in it for me? probably nothing. $50 could buy me about 20 gallons of gas or 2 cartons of cigarettes. yea i'll rejoin. alot cheaper than all the taxes i'll never see any benefit from.I think the real question should be is it something worth supporting rather than what's in it for me?

len511,
Rose Patents are easily searched through Google Patents.
Go to the main page of google, at the top, click "more".
Under the more list, click Patents.
under "advanced search" either go by plant number, a range of years, or hybridizer or .....

Here is a link that might be useful: PP1 new dawn, the first plant patent

How about if we substitute the words "rose registrations" for patents? There are far more roses registered than patented. The ARS is the International Cultivar Registration Authority - Roses. All new rose registrations from nurseries throughout the world are published by the ARS, with a considerable amount of information about the roses. If the ARS doesn't exist, that job will be taken over by another group, probably someone based in Europe, and the data won't be easily available to U.S. residents.

I'm glad you find it so easy to locate plant patents. While I was working on Modern Roses 12, I tried often to locate plant patents without having the patent number and it isn't that easy. Even when you do have the number for some of the earlier patents, the government website can't access the complete record. From two years of research experience, I can tell you it isn't all that easy to find the information you want if you don't have some key data to start with, or even if you do in some cases.

As to the ARS leadership being a bunch of hybrid tea exhibitors who don't care about anything else, where do you get your information? Steve Jones, the President of the ARS, is an OGR expert. I've been heavily involved with the ARS for years, on the Board for 6 years, Chairman of Roses in Review for 10 years, Editor of the Handbook for Selecting Roses for 8 years, Co-Chair of Roses Registration for 4 years, and Co-Editor of Modern Roses 12, among other things. I grow over 100 roses and fewer than 10 of them are hybrid teas. Marily Young, my Co-Editor of Modern Roses 12, is an expert on OGRs and Shrubs. She has worked on a volunteer basis for years with the Fineschi gardens in Italy. That garden contains many roses found nowhere else in the world. Marily carried out a project, funded by the ARS, to photograph in detail each of the roses in the Fineschi gardens. The ARS now maintains a library of over 5,000 slides taken in those gardens. It is the only such record in the world.

Please don't spread nonsense about the ARS leadership if you don't have first hand knowledge about them.

I recently rejoined after a number of years hiatus. I'm very happy that I did. I love the magazine and the articles, and the knowledge that I am supporting a national rose society. I learn a lot from this forum and I learn a lot about roses by being an ARS member. People are missing out if they don't join the ARS. Jon

The ARS innovates at a very sllllllllooooooowwwww pace. But they have modernized. The organization is no where near as Hybrid Tea centric as they used to be, the magazine is better than ever, and their website is beautiful and user friendly. I find myself more-and-more referring to THE HANDBOOK OF SELECTED ROSES, if for no other reason than to look up the correct name and date of origin of a specific rose. They also provide a way for rose lovers to rate garden roses. So to answer your question, yes they have improved over the past 10 years to the point that I can honestly say they are worth the cost to join.

I do think that they ought to figure out a way to cut seniors a break. The dues are high for those scraping by on a fixed income. Maybe reoffer discounted lifetime memberships for those 65 and older?

What Patrick said.

Foghorn

The statements of both Phil Schorr and Karl Bapst are ones I heartily agree with, and there is little I can add. However, as someone who has attempted to improve communication between the local societies and ARS Headquarters, I think people underestimate the amount of time and effort to induce change in any organization. It is obvious that some societies are more favorable to change than others, but at least a third of the local societies do not offer a rose show and must find some other means of providing community education about the rose. There are experiments going on all over the country in balancing the concerns of those who favor organic approaches versus the concerns of those who favor petrochemicals; some societies have simply 'declared' themselves to be organic, while others divide up meeting time between exhibitors and general gardeners. I have served on the Newsletter/bulletin committee and I can tell you from personal experience of reading hundreds of local society bulletins over a three year period that there is a great deal of change taking place--not always in a direction some on this list might favor, and never at the pace to provide an entirely new set of people tomorrow. But the change is there.

Yes, the cost is high. Perhaps dangerously so. But I don't believe that anyone is making a profit out of the enterprise. Costs on the local level keep rising; one of the reasons that we get good responses when we run articles on e-mailing newsletters in the ARS & You is that costs have been increasing a lot faster than dues.

And I might add that, in my personal opinion, were it not for rose shows, a lot of lesser-known rose classes, would be taxonomically chaotic and unavailable to the public in any significant way. Check your local rose gardens and count the number of polyanthas, or chinas, or noisettes.
The rose show is a movable feast of roses not otherwise available and certainly not to the degree of development commonly seen at a local rose show. JMO>

JimD

I have decided not to rejoin. In my opinion the cost increase was the last straw. The magazine has been slowly becoming less useful and intersting for me. Too many articles on conventions, shows, and less about actually growing roses. In addition it is nearly always late, and now will be only 6 times a year instead of the previous 12. I say if it's worth it to you go for it but after over 20 years of membership I've decided I can find a better use for the money.

I've been an ARS member for 10 years and am active in local rose societies. I'm the first to admit that I don't take advantage of all the perks offered to ARS members. I read the magazine and appreciate the fact they went to 6 issues instead of 12. Kitty Belendez did a fantastic job on the Rose Annual, IMO. In years past, I thought it was mostly a rehash of the magazine articles but the past two years have been much more interesting.

Personally, I would like to see less emphasis on rose shows. I've seen rose shows bring out the best in roses and the worst in rosarians. The shows are costly and the storage fees for all the supplies can overwhelm the club treasury. I'm sure this holds true whether it's local, district or national. Most of these shows are either too big or too involved to be readily accessible to the public, anyway. Who really attends? Other exhibitors.

I'll refute that last statement, at least for our rose society. We were fortunate enough to have our last show at a major garden center in the area. We had lots of non-exhibiting visitors. We gave one talk each day, and they were well attended. We are also fortunate enough to have a member who allows us to store show supplies at her house.

BTW, supplies for district shows come from the rose society sponsoring the district show. And for nationals, when Penn-Jersey sponsored the show, we pooled resources from across the district.

I agree that the latest annual was well done (thanks Kitty, if you still lurk over here). Articles by Paul Barden, Ralph Moore and other esteemed rosarians. I found the articles on fragrance especially interesting.

I got part of my membership dues back ordering from Ashdown who discounts 10% for ARS members. And generally there are one or two good ideas a year which more than pay for the cost. One year it was getting a source for Avid, the next it was winter protecting with cedar bark - and so it goes. As a very senior citizen making ends meet on Social Security, I have to watch the dimes (forget about pennies) but so far ARS has repaid more than I ever gave it.
Incidentally, I have doubled the number of hybrid teas in my garden - I now have two. And two grandifloras. And have finally achieved four floribundas!

I'm shallow. I love the magazine with its pretty pictures. I like the discounts at Ashdown, Rogue Valley and Vintage. I can afford it. So I joined.

Elaine

I have been an ARS member for 15 years and a CR for 12. I have served as VP and President of a local rose society. I also wrote some 30 plus articles for that rose societys newsletter. The ARS has slowly been changing and become more all encompassing. The magazine is better and I actually read it from cover to cover  something I have not been able to force myself to do in the past. Having been approached by the editors a few times to write articles on rose subjects I feel strongly about (which have to do with garden roses and natural rose growing) I know they are trying to find articles on all subjects but they need people to write them. They canÂt publish an article on garden rose growing without an author.

For me it comes to this. The ARS is our national organization for The Rose. We can complain or we can join and change. I prefer the latter. While IMO no one can deny the ARS in the past was exhibitor/chemical there is an on-going attempt to broaden the information. Exhibiting is part of rose growing and should not be demeaned and the friends whom I count as top exhibitors are very talented and hard-working. But equal "status" should be given to information for those who grow garden roses  and slowly it is but only if we continue to ask for it and perhaps more importantly supply it.

If the end the ARS ceases to exist that will be sad, but so be it. Ultimately the membership will vote with their dues. But I think it is worth working for as it has a long and terrific history.

Glad to hear by the way our discount helps change a few minds. That is why we do it.

Regarding the IRAR. Knowing Marily Young very well and knowing the work She, Phil and the group voluntarily put into gathering the registration information it is a labor of love. But IÂm not sure if a European group took over it the "data won't be easily available to U.S. residents". Europeans care about these things as well.

And I will now say goodnight as it is time to call my Mother who is a Dutch immigrant proud to be living in this country!

Paul Zimmerman
1st Generation American and a lover of cheese!

For me, it is not something I can afford on my budget, but I am happy for those who are able to do so.

I would like to thank Karl, Phil and Paul for filling us in with actual experiences. If there was a functioning local society, I would be a member of the ARS.

Thank you for your feedback about the ARS. It looks like a lot of you have found membership useful/enjoyable. I'll reconsider and probably join the ARS again.

I was a little surprised to hear that this question had been asked before, and that there was "ugliness" as a result. You all seemed very civil in your expressions--you thoughts were helpful. Thank you.

KenZen

Del-Chester Rose Society
Delaware and Chester
County, PA
Ron Upton, President
610-399-1864

Pittsburgh Rose Society
Pittsburgh, PA
Ralph Stehle, President
412-364-3227
York Area Rose Society
York, PA
Nancy Redington, President
717-264-6488

Greater Harrisburg
Rose Society
Harrisburg, PA
Michael Wrightstone, President
717-774-7208

Reading-Berks Rose Society
Reading, PA
Mrs. Pat Pitkin, President
610-488-1817

Philadelphia Rose Society
Philadelphia, PA
Bill Kozemchak, President
215-945-8098
PinkyKoz@aol.com
South Penn Area Rose Society
Fayetteville, PA
June King, President
717-352-7225

Thanks Karl.

When I got involved two years ago, I was invited to some meetings. Unfortunately, they were at least an hour drive from my home and held on weeknights. For someone who commutes 3 hours per day and rarely gets home before 6:30 p.m., that was almost impossible.

When I retire, I will try again. Maybe I'll even try to resurrect the club in Allentown. Yes, that's it. I could create a local rose society in my own image!

> Yes, that's it. I could create a
> local rose society in my own image!

*** HARRY, DON'T LAUGH! DO IT!

There's a WONDERFUL opportunity here, to create a local rose society that really addresses the concerns and needs of rose lovers in your area.
Any society that was guided by Harry would of necessity be fun to belong to. Who could love roses, and resist that?

Jeri

If everyone who wants change leaves the ARS, it won't change. It's more fun to stick around and throw bombs.

It's much easier to poke a stick in the eye of those who are actually doing things than to do them yourself. The ARS wears a lot of hats. Every time I actually ask for something, the ARS responds positively. We have to take the time to ask and, when asked to explain, to explain.

We do more complaining about the way the ARS used to be than the way it is today. Yes, costs are rising. Go to the gas station. Read your cable bill. There was a while there when I first joined that dues were a ridiculous $10 a year. The organization was slow at that time in responding to change, but it's better.

Hey, I'm with mbundick about articles about conventions. What's with that? I've never understood why anyone thinks it's interesting for someone who didn't go to read the Proceedings. They should be printed and published and paid for by the attendees. That's pretty standard today.

Hey, I'm with mbundick about articles about conventions. What's with that?

*** I THINK that they THINK that reading about the events will make many people want to attend them.
In truth, conventions are for the most part structured to appeal to a certain group of members.
For them, an ARS Convention/Rose Show is vacation.
And maybe to a subset of fairly affluent rose-loving retirees.
For most of the rest of us, it's a dead bore.

They're trying tho. Cass is right -- they ARE changing.
The question is whether they can change enough, and whether increasing costs will do them in.

But remember -- LOCAL ARS Societies can be very valuable, and ARS is the supporting structure for those.

Jeri

But remember -- LOCAL ARS Societies can be very valuable, and ARS is the supporting structure for those.

That's exactly one of my problems with them. "CAN BE". But even if they are not they can use the ARS who will not check who is using their name and for what. OTOH, I could name a few names of the people on these forums who -if they run the local society here - could make me reconsider to join again. As it is here and now, I learn more on these forums than.... But there are lucky places with good local societies, I learned that, too - here on the forum. LOL.

Well, if they are not valuable today, they may become valuable tomorrow. Nothing lasts forever. Boring Societies become exciting ones, and vibrant ones may run down and need renewal. It depends upon how much energy people have, to put into it.

Societies CAN be changed.
I've seen it happen.

Jeri

I wouldn't pay fifty bucks a year for any magazine subscription, and from my perspective, thats all you are getting for the money when you join the ARS. You can join your local affiliate Rose Society and get a lot out of it if yours is an active group with a broad range of member interests. Joining your local affiliate does not mean you have to belong to the ARS, however.

Paul, I cannot disagree with you.
And no -- I honestly don't believe the magazine approaches being worth that.
I have two years before I must renew.
This gives me plenty of time to think things over and observe what's happening in Shreveport.
I will have to decide how important it is to me to "donate" support for the Society.

Jeri

I joined two years ago. I do enjoy the magazine for the most part. Mostly I just wanted to support it because it promotes something I love. I wish there was a local society I could join that was closer than a 40 mile drive.

I wish there was a local society I could join that was closer than a 40 mile drive.

*** D'you think you could scrape up a few more people who are interested? You could always START a society.

Jeri

Regarding the talk about rose societies--

In my opinion, the main problem with some rose societies is that they "loose the meaning." Specifically, some members cannot contribute as much (volunteer wise) or do as good a job as others would like them to do as a result of health/aging problems, money problems, emotional stress, family problems, work, time constraints, distance, etc.

I personally feel that these members are at risk of being discounted, their accomplishments minimized, and their humanity sometimes ignored--not by everyone--there are always some kind hearted people at the meetings I go to. I think a guide for "How to treat your members 101" should be developed by the ARS--in order to help societies retain their members.

KenZen