I prune or train all my hardy roses now... and HPs are hardy. I start pruning my roses after the first year of growth and not wait because I want to establish a sturdy framework. I would prune them down to about 3-4' or if you have the room you can peg the canes by arching them and tying them to a short post in the ground to get even more blooms along the entire cane length instead of just the upper cane portion.

With six foot canes, I would prune it back to 3-4 feet in the spring time.

I trim long canes back a little bit in the autumn to keep them from whipping in the wind, but do the main pruning in the spring.

So the question is...how to you want to train this particular HP? They don't all grow alike. Baronne Prevost and Ardoisee de Lyon can grow to be 8 footers and benefit from a bit of support, unless you like canes trailing along the ground. Pruning them requires a notion of what you want them to look like. Octopus HP's like to be trained, and Ardoisee de Lyon is a particularly good rebloomer.

You have options: prune back to really stiff wood and try to make it bushy. Like to peg? Pegging is probably better in cooler climates with shorter growing seasons because in hot, mild climates, pegged roses get sunburned canes. Plus pegging can take a lot of room. But well done, a pegged rose is simply beautiful. And you don't have to peg all the canes: discipline the plant to 4 canes and peg them in an X or a +. Or, give it a little support, say a pillar, keep the number of basals manageable and wind it around your support (which will shorten the height of the plant. Or, do a combo- train a couple of canes on a pillar and then peg a cane or two on either side of your pillar. Or, if you want to get really fancy, you can train it as a cordon: you run little posts, about 15 inches high and staple thick wire to them. Think a little fence running in front of your HP about 5 feet in both directions. Then you reduce your rose to the two or four longest canes. One or two canes you tie to the wire in one direction, and the other cane or canes you tie to the wire in the opposite direction. A cordon forms a little fence made out of rose, but oh, my, that's labor intensive.

I'm lazy. I tend to prune HP's hard and make them form bushes.

Thanks for the responses so far, especially Berndoodle for giving me lots of options! Lori and Krista, from what you've said, I think I'm going to prune it now to save it from getting whipped in the wind. My original intention was to try and wrap it around a rebar teepee, but I may just take the "lazy" way and prune it for a bush form. I've also thought about sinking some 4x4 posts for pillars, which sounds like a good mix of training vertically to save space, yet get some horizontal growth for laterals. If I had more space I'd try the cordon idea, sounds intriguing.

Anyone have pics?

Thanks,
Eric

Wow, Berndoodle, what a lot of great ideas! Now I am going to look at my HPs and evaluate what would look good for each of them. I like the combo pegging and pillaring. I did this with a bourbon and I think it worked fairly well. Thanks for the suggestions.
Joanne

I'm going to hijack this thread a bit...I've been avoiding adding more HPs into my garden because they just don't seem to take off. I am amazed to hear that Ardoisee de Lyon went from a band to an octopus with 6 ft canes in one season. Mine is still the size of a band. I'm wondering if HPs can grow in my area without chemical support. Here are the ones I'm growing...am I growing the wrong ones?

Ardoisee de Lyon
Baron Girod de lÂAin
Baronne Prevost
Black Prince
Dupuy Jamin
Ferdinand Pichard
Frau Karl Drushki
General Jacqueminot
Henry Nevard
La Reine
Mrs. John Laing
Paul Neyron
Reine des Violettes
Souvenir du Dr. Jamain

Any suggestions? Once I get them to grow, I can consider pruning them...how's that for tying into the original thread?

Robert

HP are very blackspot prone here, and they will be diminished in size and vigor by losing leaves and fighting blackspot if you grow them no-spray. I have grown a lot on your list, always no-spray, but the only ones remaining in my garden are Frau, Reine des Violettes, and Dr J. Dr. J has the most vigor and is growing as a climber, though it probably took 5 years to get going which is longer than average. But a definite climber or peg candidate. RdV is very small 4' high bush and I've been growing her for 5 years and she still hasn't taken off. The Frau is in her first year so hard to predict.

I removed Ardoisee, Baronne P, Henry N, Mrs. John L, Ferdinand, and Paul N for blackspot reasons. These all suffered decline. I grew them all as bushes. I think I loved Baronne P the most -- was vigorous for a while with a fantastic scent and good repeat and then declined. Not to mention mostly bare summer bushes...

I grow some others not on your list -- Mme Victor Verdier, which is healthier than average but still only a 5' bush; Enfant de France, vigorous with 6' canes in spite of summer defoliation; Surpassing Beauty, a climber but it's losing vigor and not producing new basals so might not stay; and I lost Ards Rover due to space competition but it seemed to be a healthier climber.

Robert, what are you soil conditions? Bourbons and HPs seem to be happy in my yard and I have slightly alkaline (I think) clay soil. FWIW, my Ardoisee really took off after it suffered some trauma where the two main canes split during a storm. I tied the split back together...it later responded by throwing up multiple basals that grew quickly. In reading some of the old rose books posted by Ann, I saw recommendations to prune weak growers more than others...seems counterintuitive to me. Have you pruned any of them?

Eric

Yolande de Aragon is very happy for me, but requires spraying. I don't think it will grow well no spray. This is something that upsets me a lot. I have YdA that is at least 8feet wide and 10 feet high now (grown as a bush). I prune it hard to approx 5x5 each spring and it covers itself with huge very fragrant blooms each spring. It also has good repeat, if provided regular watering. However , as I move to no spray, I know I will loose it. This is really hard decision for me :(
I tried many others like Reine des Violettes, Ardoisee, Baronne P, Henry N, Mrs. John L (the worst BS of all), Paul N, Dupuy Jamain, and some others. They all suffered from BS terribly. RdV better then other, but still...
Olga

Olga

I grow three hybrid perpetuals and all three have had the exact same growth habit ... some have just had longer canes than others. You can let them grow or prune them back, they don't seem to mind either way.

Reine des Violettes: the largest and healthiest of the three. I grow her like a "short" climber. Superb scent. A special rose to me.

Paul Neyron: the second largest of the three. I prune him back because during certain times of the year he is ugly with blackspot. Not much scent. Balls like a maniac in the spring, and that really ticks me off. Doesn't bloom very frequently. When he is on his best behavior, his bloom are unforgetable, especially in a vase.

Archiduchesse Elisabeth d' Autriche: the shortest of the three. I prune her back because she's growing in a large container & would take up too much patio space otherwise. Balls a little in the spring, but blooms much more throughout the year than the other three. Smells great. A healthy rose here, nice in a vase.

Randy

Here is a picture of the said Ardoisee de Lyon. The tallest cane on the center right is more like 8ft.

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oops..I meant center left.

I only have Marchesa Boccella, and she grows exactly like Cincy's Ardoisee de Lyon, even with the nakkid legs. Between now to the early Spring, I cut her back to about 3 ft, and also cut off old canes. After the pruning, I have some canes sticking out from the ground. In Autumn, I also cut back canes with spent flowers if it is too long and flippy, otherwise the bush could flip around too much and get wind damage.

Seeing as how my Jacques Cartier only seems to grow an inch each year, I've never actually pruned it. I give it a trim but maybe it needs a little shock.
Berndoodle, I realize yours do better in sunny CA. Maybe it's their preference to be in certain areas of the country, like some of the Gallicas and Rugosas.

Carla

I can't see the canes on the right very clearly. It looks like you have some canes tied to bamboo stakes with green tree tie. It's just my personal prejudice, but I wouldn't put up with that.

If it were my HP, I'd hammer it...in the spring. At that time, I'd prune it down to 15 inches. I'd completely remove any basal canes that are scraggly (if that describes the two on the right). Then I'd prune everything down to stout wood that will support itself. If nothing is that stout, then take it down to 15 inches. The reason I'd wait is that I'm not convinced every HP is equally hardy, especially with Lyon being in southern France.

You can top the plant after it gets really cold down 3.5 or 4 feet.

One other thing. Again, I can't see clearly. Are those canes coming out of the ground or out of a single basal cane? I'm thinking I would probably have planted that rose deeper. I always bury the crown of any own root rose. It makes for a stouter base with more support for the basals. I plant all my roses deep, and they don't mind in the least. In your climate, it's freeze insurance.

Cass, you made some excellent suggestions. I especially appreciate the tip about sunburned canes with the pegging approach.
Eric, interesting post.

Carla

Hi Cass, the canes tied with the green tape belong to another rose behind Ardoisee, but the two scraggly canes on the right, I might remove those as you suggest. The consensus emerging is to prune it down to self supporting wood come Spring be it 15 inches or 3 feet depending on what's not dead.

The canes are coming out from the ground. The thing was pretty teeny when I planted it, so I can't recall a prominent crown, but if I had to guess it would be at ground level or a little below.

Thanks everyone for the advice,

Eric

I have a double row of mature HPs - perhaps 26 or so. Most grow to 10+ feet each season with one good feeding (~ 3 heaping coffee mugs) of my organic mix. I prune them when I get around to it - usually in mid to late February. I prune most of the canes to about 24" to 30" and use 3 to 4 of the longest canes to peg adjacent as well as diagonally 1 or 2 plants away in both directions. Many say it presents a nice display. Plus it allows many more blooms of each plant which burst from each lateral bud on the pegged canes. Although it is a bit time consuming, I feel the day of pruning and tying the pegged canes is worth the effort. The peged canes are adjusted to the height of the upright ones thus giving a final effect of a very full bed of blooms, many of which are at the same height ~ 3-4' for the blooms. This is a great way to enjoy their spring bloom. Thanks Lori for your encouragement to try this approach as well as your kind assistance. Best, Nick

I know less than nothing about HPs and don't grow any, but yesterday I had a conversation with a lady who grows Baronne Prevost which gets a lot of BS here in hot, humid Florida. She's been treating it like a HT, cutting off long stems after each bloom so it's always putting out new leaves. She says the bush stays about 4' tall and reblooms fairly quickly. I think she's only been doing this for the last season so I can't speak to the long term.

Sherry