In my experience (inland with little whiffs of coastal influence from time to time), Buff Beauty, in the ground 11 years, 7' tall x 3' wide x 20' long along a wood fence, is the more easily controlled climber ("mannerly" is a description that fits it well). Reve d'Or is young (3 year in the ground) and, as I discovered today while working with her, already has 15' canes heading everywhere and amok, like every other tea-noisette I have, though they are certainly more flexible than those of Buff Beauty. I think Reve d'Or is going to be more of a challenge to control in the future than Buff Beauty has been. Reve d'Or does bloom more often than Buff Beauty, who is more flush-y, though with fewer blooms (but she's young). The character of the blooms differ, with Reve d'Or usually (ironically) more "buff" than Buff Beauty and more slinky/silky. Buff Beauty's blooms are fuller, more "fou-fou" and frilly. Below are photos of mine from last spring. Buff Beauty: Reve d'Or

My experience echoes Melissa's, which shouldn't be surprising since we live in similar climate conditions. Reve d'Or and Crepuscule are very happy here, as are the tea roses, with enough water and mulching. The pure noisettes, of which at one time I must have had about ten, were all a disaster. Not a one survives. However, in another, earlier garden, I remember Bougainville doing well, although I didn't care for the fact that the flowers were very small. That was a flat garden, and here the noisettes were set in a hillside, which made the heat even more of a problem. Having roses on a slope in a dry garden seems to decrease their chances, although I'm trying again now with two Wild Edric and a Mutabilis beside a sloping driveway. I'm watering and mulching more in hopes it will help. Ingrid

I love, love this forum - I learn so many interesting things! I have 2 comments: 1) I grew Buff Beauty along a fence. It went up an arch that was supposed to be for Cl. Iceberg, and over to the house, and then started racing Iceberg up the house. The BB got at least 13 feet up the house (before we had to cut it back to paint) - that was about 22 feet in total away from its base. So, I agree that it can, indeed, be grown as a climber (at least here in No Cal). It is now again putting out long canes and aiming to get back onto the house so it can go vertical again! 2) I am intrigued that evidently there is a controversy about the "everblooming" Cl Cecile Brunner - whether it might be the "spray" version. I was so amused that it took DNA testing to confirm that the 3 types of CB (bush, spray, and climber) were indeed sports of each other, instead of the spray one being a completely different rose (which was the "conventional wisdom" of even very expert rose folks for decades). A reconfirmation of the old "if it walks like a duck....."adage. Thanks greybird! I have all three versions of CB in my garden. The climbing one (which repeats only sporadically with scattered bloom) grew 3 stories up my house. The spray one (which is VERY VERY old - 80-90 years, at least) is 8-10 feet wide, and 10-12 feet high. So, does anyone have the "everyblooming" CB "climber" that has actually climbed up 20-35 feet, like the original climber? Just curious. Jackie

If you're going to grow tender things that need to keep a good amount of cane -- in other words, as climbers -- put them against a south-facing wall, and don't try to grow them on something free-standing in the open. 'Gloire de Dijon' will probably be less tender with regards to frost damage, so if you're going to experiment with something on a pillar or post, use that one. If, instead, you plan to grow the others as loose shrubs, perhaps with support, that can be done in the open. Just be aware that you'll probably be cutting them back hard in Spring, and in that case, make sure they're in completely full-sun so that they'll grow back as much as possible every Spring/Summer. I've come to learn that growing tender things like Chinas, Teas, Noisettes, etc. here requires one of two situations -- either protection, such as against a south-facing wall, which minimizes Winter damage, or being planted where they get all-day full-sun in the open, where they'll likely have significant Winter damage but will get what they need to grow back every year. For example, 'Napoleon' is planted against the south-facing side of the house, and it got to over seven feet tall on one fat cane, leaning against the house. There, it gets little Winter damage except to thin stems that hadn't hardened off yet. Planted out in the open is "Bermuda Spice", which gets significant Winter damage most years, but will rebound to at least five feet tall and wide by the end of the season even if cut back as hard as a Hybrid Tea, to within inches of the mulch line. So take that as a guide -- if you want to keep surviving cane from year to year, plant where they'll be protected from damage. If you just want a loose mounding shrub, plant where there's all-day full-sun to promote regrowth after Winter takes much away. :-) ~Christopher