Hi. I will chime in with my experiences. Anna Olivier is pretty. Haven't noticed much scent. BS magnet here but you don't have to deal with that much, do you?
G. Nabonnand is a fantastic rose! Healthy and happy and HUGE...haven't noticed much scent...
White Maman Cochet is pretty and healthy...again...not much scent to me.
I LOVE Lady Ann Kidwell. She is a slow grower for me but her blooms are wonderful! I think Jeri really likes her (do you have the same climate?). I LOVE Arch Duke Charles---super fast repeat and healthy, grows like a weed here.
Mme Berkeley is a rapid grower too, and I love her. Lady Hillingdon is suuuuuper slooooow and I have heard many times to purchase the climbing sport rather than the bush.
You said you didn't like "red reds" but what about crimsons? Do you have Barcelona? It is glorious (and scented to my nose).
Not on your list that I would add is Safrano. Just a really unassuming understated beauty with gorgeous creamy blooms and apricot buds in cooler temps. Good health and repeat (again, the scent issue).
I was looking through the Vintage Book of Roses last night and remembered they have lists for fragrance, shade, etc. I revisited some of the roses I had forgotten I loved...I think you have that book don't you?
Susan

Most of the roses on your list will grow to a mature height of way taller than 4 feet in So Cal, I am afraid. I love your list - these are all fantastic roses, but in your warm climate they will not stay small without constant pruning, and maybe not even then. In other, cooler areas of the US they do not get that big, so you may get a lot of comments about how they stay smaller from folks who live in cooler climates, but beware!

jackie

only a dozen? Keep up, Kippy.

Reve d'Or -- In California, this is a vigorous climber.

Arch Duke Charles -- WONDERFUL rose, but over time, if it is allowed to, it will hit 6-ft. at least. And it really wouldn't appreciate being cut back to 4-ft

Lady Hillingdon -- Yes, if you're talking about the bush, she'd not going much over 4 ft.

Lady Ann Kidwell -- A good 5-ft tall x 6-ft wide.

Grandmothers Hat -- You can prune her, and keep her to about 5 ft., or you can let her have her head, and go to 7+ ft.

Crepuscule -- Even budded, I have not managed to get it over 2 ft. It wants a warm climate.

Madame Berkeley -- Maybe 6-ft. tall x 7-8-ft. wide?

Cl Cecile Brunner -- HOUSE-EATER.

Below -- A look at mature plants of Archduke Charles and Reve d'Or

Jeri

In my climate, Maman Cochet is bullet proof. Also Mrs BR Cant, Mons. Tillier and Rosette Delizy are wonderful. They all get big though, as others have noted.

But then, I love teas most of all.

I agree, Jasper. And those roses are also bulletproof here, at the coast.

Jeri

Baronne Prevost would not be on my list of good roses for southern California. Most hybrid perpetuals are not premier roses in our climate. Instead I would substitute La France which I think could be kept to 4 feet and has absolutely sumptuous, large and fragrant roses in my hot garden. I wouldn't be without it. Although not fragrant, Souv. du President Carnot is another early hybrid tea with gorgeous blooms, although a rather lanky grower, but in this case I'm willing to forgive that. I agree with Josh that Duchesse de Brabant is a gorgeous and fragrant tea, which I've tried to grow twice. The next time I would be sure to give it a spot with afternoon shade; the same goes for Mme. Schwartz;

Ingrid

I should have been more clear, the 4 foot and under ones are pretty easy to place, only most I know want to be bigger. Sounds like I already have the two that will stay that small...lol (Crepuscule and Lady Hillingdon) I guess I was hoping some one would say that there might be a few of the others that would stay closer to 4 feet. I am filling the space between the fruit trees with the lower growing ones, even then I know I will be asking myself what was I thinking planting that there in a couple of years. Thankfully the tree I have Lady Ann Kidwell next to is also growing like a weed so it will not be over taken in her joy to be in the garden. Archduke Charles is happy, but still only about a foot tall.

Reve d'Or is happy and busy growing, but she has a nice spot she can grow a lot in. Cl Cecile I knew would be big, but she is making the rest look wimpy as she starts on the take over of 20 some feet of chainlink fencing.

Okay, any closer to five feet? :)

(Camps-my wish list would be many times longer with all the beauties I see posted here, but I am trying to limit to a good "base" group)

Kippy,

How much sun will the roses get? The Duchesse is shade tolerant and will stay smaller than her usual 6-8' if not in full sun. I'm afraid many of the teas on your list will by nature grow larger than 5' x 5'.

Josh

Oh that is good info Josh, because one thing I have plenty of where I can't grow fruit trees is....shade! I actually put Madame Berkeley down where she gets mostly morning sun with the hope that it will slow her down.

My original plan was to remove the guava hedge and then replace with the roses. But then I got to thinking that I should do some checking on when that hedge might have been planted (guessing the 1920's) just incase it was actually much older than I thought. I still plan to replace the top few with the roses. But need to pot up to big before I do that. Climbers are also a bit easier because I do have some places they can climb.

Maybe I should ask with dozen 4 foot roses you all think are good to have and share. I have a Gruss an Aachen that is very happy, only she is not tall enough for the area she is in to be seen well

Kippy,

The only compact Tea I know of would be Souv. D'Elise Vardon. While it is not on your original list, and I am unsure of its fragrance, it would be my suggestions for a compact Tea rose.

The trick about morning sun is that roses prefer it to any other sun. If a rose gets at least 5 hours of morning sun that will be enough for it to try to grow to its full size in my experience. Now, you may be able to slightly size down you roses per pruning, but Teas resent hard prunings so one must be conservative in that regard.

Ultimately, it is much easier to make the spot fit the rose than make the rose fit the spot. I wish I had better advice!

Josh

Ingrid is correct -- that most HP's are poor choices for Southern California. In our often-difficult conditions, Baronne Prevost is a rare exception to that rule.

Here, she makes a lanky, disease-free climber, easily espaliered on a fence or wall.

She rusteth not; neither doth she mildew.

She has a big spring show, rests in summer heat, and blooms generously again in the Fall.

I would recommend her to anyone in my area.

Jeri

It is outside of the 'Tea' family but Ingrid grows a Romaggi Plot Bourbon that is quite compact. Perhaps it would be a suitable plant for the job?

Josh

You can grow pernetianas! Most are puny growers, which means they would fit nicely into spots between fruit trees, and they have some of the most amazing color shadings ever seen in roses.

Autumn
Contessa de Sastago
any other Pedro Dot rose still available. Try Angel Gardens
Talisman and its' sports

You can enjoy the brilliant colors while attending to fruit tree maintainance.

So I realized what I really should do, is have you all over with a map, plant sizes and sketchbook and help lay it all out

And yes that was an invite to visit.

Kippy,
Why don't you ask about some of the early hybrid teas that have a heavy tea influence. They are smaller roses that might like your climate. Take a look at Madame Abel Chatenay and Grace Darling.

another smaller "compact" tea is Madame Melanie Willermoz - what it will do in your climate, though, I don't know. I noticed that Christina of Organic Garden Dreams blog has this rose - she might be able to tell you how large it actually gets for her; she is in San Diego. Mine is small and probably will always stay small here, so I am of no help at all. It is a beautiful bloom though and one not heard about much.

This post was edited by harborrose on Sat, Nov 2, 13 at 19:10

'Souvenir de Pierre Notting' was awful here. A mighty plant with amazing vigor and an unbelievable number of new basals every year, but the flowers were dirty ugly little rags.

Not on your list, but one that I'm enamored with and think everyone should grow if they can is Comice de Tarn-et-Garonne. Put her in as a band this year and WOW! did she do well. Blackspot early, but she shrugged it off as nothing. Picked it up from Vintage in the spring. Their catalog remarked on the quality of a particular shrub in Southern California. They put it in the category of 'up to 6' tall'.

{{gwi:225777}}

Comice de Tarn-et-Garonne is truly a beautiful rose, but it set new standards for heavy mildew, some miles inland in Thousand Oaks. Like most Hybrid Perpetuals, it's not a great candidate for any no-spray garden along the Southern California coast.

Jeri

You know what, though? This could be a candidate for the identity of "The Thing With Many Names."

Jeri

Thank you for the ideas Gean and Zaphod

Gean, do you have some more early HT you like? I have the ones you listed to do some research on.

Zaphod, that is pretty, I will be looking in to her as well.

Hoovb, thanks for the heads up on that one. I made my list up from previous threads with peoples favorite roses. But of course, they will do differently in different areas. But I already have the DA queen of nasty on stick, her blooms are wonderful and smell fabulous when the weather is right, but the rest of the time YUCK. My love/hate rose, Janet. There is a 'Souvenir de Pierre Notting' in the rose garden at the mission, I guess I need to stop in more often and check out how it looks.

thanks all!

Kippy,
No, especially not for your area. But if you are going to to see Kim soon, ask him or the others at that meeting for a smaller rose. Also there have been a couple of nice threads on early hybrid teas, though that might give you some other good ideas. Have fun, Kippy. Gean

Kippy, I have a young G. Nabonnand and it's great so far; healthy, pretty foliage and almost thornless. Roserich, I just sniffed one of its blossoms and it's heavenly! Maybe the cooler weather makes a difference? It's young so I don't yet know what's typical for it. Anyway, I love it so far! We'll see how large it gets here in New Orleans. That's the only one I have from your list, but I hope it helps! Zaphod, that rose is gorgeous!

Melanie -- G. Nabonnand is another rose that's as good here at the Pacific Coast as it is for you in NOLA.

Jeri

Thinking about these roses today.

I have one spot that is the "premium" spot in the garden, right at the lower entrance to garden. From the street corner the first rose will be what I hope to be a large green mound of Felicite et Peretue and then the fence eating cl Cecile Brunner with a big expanse of gates between them and this spot.

10 feet long, the bed is only 4 feet wide, but no problem with a rose throwing some canes further out. Height is no issue

If you were going to pick one for this spot, which would it be?

On your list you mention both 'La Reine' and 'Barbara's Pasture Rose'. There is a theory that BPR may be a superior clone of 'La Reine'. Of course it may be something else, perhaps a seedling of that rose. But if you are pressed for room you might pick just one, BPR being the superior rose. I don't know of any US nurseries selling it anymore. If you are willing to root it yourself you will find it strikes easily from cuttings. Also I think that it is sometimes sold at the Sacramento Cemetery rose sale in April, a convenience if you are not interested in trying to root it.

Rosefolly