Elaine, I think I'd want Sutter's Gold budded myself.
But the other three will grow like a house afire on their own roots.
I THOUGHT I understood that Teas, like Chinas, would grow own-root
in Florida. Is that not so????

Jeri

Well, sort of. I have an own-root Cramosi Superior that is threatening to eat the back corner or my yard, and two bushes of Old Blush that could easily do same.

I have a few noisettes (blush noisette, MAC, Crepuscle) who are all growing happily with no apparent vigor/nemotode issues.

My teas, on the other hand are barely okay. Just not very vigorous for me at all. Oops--Exception being Niles Cochet. I have two that are HUGE at eighteen months in the ground.

Most of my teas were purchased as bands and this would be midway through year two for most of them.

Elaine

Elaine,

I have mine growing own root here. I think ft would have these growing too big.

Mari

Most of my teas were purchased as bands and this would be midway through year two for most of them. Elaine

*** Well, our conditions (except for lack of winter chill, and a sandy native soil) could hardly be more different.
That said, Teas in general tend to take longer to mature as plants than do the Hybrid Teas folks may be used to.
I suppose that is particularly true if they are small band plants.

HOWEVER, once they've had 3-4 years to build up the sort of twiggy substructure that need, Teas here will become quite large plants.
Consider that we have mature Tea Roses here which range in size from 3.5 ft to more than 10 ft.
I don't think I'd want to see those on Fortuniana!

If they are not subject to problems caused by your nematodes, I'd guess that you just need to have patience with them.

Remember -- these are not plants that want a real pruning. That also makes a difference.

Jeri

Hi, Elaine. I have Mrs B R Cant on Fortuniana in the ground 18 months and still not looking like much. I read that roses on Fortuniana take longer to establish so in the shortrun I don't know how much it buys you. There is still the ugly gawky stage to get through. My Chinas are doing fine. My Teas are another thing. My soil has a lot of limestone in it with areas that are dry and like baby powder with a 7PH after amending. The Teas are struggling. I've been only using organics until 2 weekends ago in desperation I got some MiracleGro and even some timed-release fertilizer. I have seen a slight improvement with 2 applications of MG - better leaf color and a few more leaves & shoots sprouting. Saturday I got out my PH/fertilizer tester. Most places were 6.9 - 7.0 with fertilizer in the too low range - I fertilize monthly! Two areas registered 6.5 with the fertilizer in the ideal range (albeit low.) I assume there is a correlation so I put out powdered sulphur yesterday. If that helps it will still have to be repeated since the correction is not permanent. I know Jeri Jennings grows roses in higher PH soil, and I congratulate her especially since she also doesn't use water!!!!

Granted, Fortuniana is supposed to handle our sand well but what about our lack of fertility - probably better there, too. Organics and everything else runs right through this sand like a sieve. BTW, Mrs B R Cant has issues too, leaflessness & few canes. She's bigger but she's supposed to be bigger. I know Chinas are more tolerant of alkaline soil.

It will be a wonderful thing if you post back and say your soil is acidic. For me, I'm just waiting for time to pass and these roses to get some maturity under their belts - and I may be ready to order MG in bulk! At least I hope so. Do I sound depressed? BTW, Monsieur Tillier is in the ground 6 or 7 months and is my biggest and leafiest Tea, along with being a bloom machine. What a man!

Sherry

Jeri, the main issue in Florida's sand is the rootknot nematodes. Some roses still grow OK not grafted (I grew several myself when I lived in Orlando), but only if you do a lot of soil improvement.

--Ron

What's interesting is that some teas are so full and leafy and vigorous, even own root.

Gilbert Nabonannd, Rose Nabonnand, Cels Multiflora,Thomasville Old Gold, and Mme Lombard are some I can think of.

I have a couple of HTs on fort AND own root, the difference is amazing! I don't have any intention of getting all my teas budded (my pocketbook shudders to think!) but the ones I especially love and feel need some help...well, yeah. :)

Getting a soil test sounds like a good idea. I have a feeling I'm running somewhat alkaline.

Elaine

Oh Sherry -- I water! We have no choice but to water.
It's just crummy water.

Elaine, a good many Teas seem to tolerate our alkaline conditions better than any other roses we've grown. Mme. Lambard is a great example.

Ron -- Yes. I know.
I was going by reports I've been reading from some of the folks down there who seem to be managing well in that situation, with Teas and Chinas. And, I think, Noisettes. And of course, John Starnes has really shown the way.

But I really WOULD love to find a VI, budded Sutter's Gold.

Jeri

Is it going to be necessary to keep the budded/grafted union above ground level? If so, the weight of the scion could approach half a ton.
Exaggeration? possibly. But when we visited Ken Muncy, he had a grafted on fortuniana Lavaglut that was in a thirty gallon pot: it was at least six feet tall in the pot, and five feet wide and the basal canes could have been cut for firewood as they were about four inches across, each one of about ten was four inches across. My husband was awestruck, having seen only our small Lavaglut; I was almost scared of that rose.

I hope you try a few. I'd like to know how they go. And I'd REALLY like to know how that rootstock affects the form of the teas. Specifically, does it lead to thicker, straighter stems that are more upright?

Thank you Sandy, Ann, , Sherry, et al, I appreciate your responses.

I mailed off my cuttings today. I'll update with how the budded plants do--I still plan to keep the own roots of course! :)

Elaine

Hi Jeri, and Tea lovers.

I just happened to notice that Hortico has budded "Sutters' Gold', available, last I heard they were budding onto R. multiflora rootstock..
They are not on Fort. to my knowledge, but Hortico also sells two Tea roses, listed under the Hybrid Tea section for heavens sake, 'Lady Hillindon' and ' Marie Van Houtte'.

Luxrosa

Thanks Lux.

That Multiflora rootstock they use just HATES our alkaline conditions.
Over and above that, I can't order from Hortico unless I'm angling for
a divorce.
When Clay says no more of his money is going to a company, he's serious!

Jeri

***Oh Sherry -- I water! We have no choice but to water.
It's just crummy water.

Oh, Jeri, I was just funnin' you (and braggin' on you, too), but I guess I should've said "without rain". I'm also jealous of your results in less than ideal conditions. In other posts you said your roses are slow to mature. Is that due to lack of rain and/or alkalinity? Or maybe cooler temps? I'm not sure what your temps are in Z24.

***And I'd REALLY like to know how that rootstock affects the form of the teas. Specifically, does it lead to thicker, straighter stems that are more upright?

Don't mean to hijack this post, but, Ann, that is exactly the habit of my Mrs B R Cant on fort. She's tall (about 5') with 4 or 5 pretty straight up canes that have branched off to the rear and very few leaves. Interestingly, she is not growing toward the sun. In the second photo you can see that most of her growth is reaching out horizontally AWAY from the sun and where the ground drops off behind her. (The trees are basically east & west of her.) Being new to roses, I thought her growth habit was normal. Do you think it is? Also, do you think her location between 2 big oak trees is hopeless? Or should I just give her more time. (I hadn't thought about the rootstock being virused but it could be. I have seen a couple of yellow streaked leaves on this 18-month old rose.)
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Close-up of lower half half.
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Thanks, Ann.
Sherry

In other posts you said your roses are slow to mature. Is that due to lack of rain and/or alkalinity? Or maybe cooler temps? I'm not sure what your temps are in Z24.

*** Generally speaking, we are markedly cooler than most of Southern California.
Say average 10 deg cooler than locations 10-15 miles inland?
And our air is much more humid.
We are almost 100% under ocean influence, with a cold current offshore.

We also get little rain.
In fact, we get less rain than most of Southern California!
Most rainstorm cells pass us by. They don't make it around our sheltering
hills. So it not uncommonly rains all AROUND us.
And then, there is our rotten water.

So, I don't know why they mature slowly here. Roses that want heat won't grow
here at ALL, though, so lack of heat is my guess.

O'course, global climate change is addressing that issue.
And while Teas may take longer here, they mostly do get there eventually.

Jeri

Oh, dear lord, I can't believe that rose between the oaks is even alive! I think I'd move it. Does it get enough sun in that spot?

Elaine

Fortuniana roots can make it where other roses just sputter. The tendency is for the roots to spread out at a shallow depth and I'd almost worry about the oaks.
Fort. is that strong.
Up here, I've got a real R.x fortuniana growing right next to a walnut. Walnut toxicity seems not to bother it.

Sherry,
I wish I could live with your rose for about the next two years. Time lapse via a time machine would be nice.
The lower twiggier growth matches tea growth up here for the first two or three years. But, then, I think, the more 'juice' coming out of the rootstock starts to apply.
IF it were a HT, you would see a terminal bloom on each cane, and then, when that bloom was removed, the next set of leaf axils would break, four to six of them. And those breaks would all produce good blooms on stems that would be long and straight.
If that were my tea rose, I wouldn't be surprised to see the canes going horizontal, more horizontal than yours in fact. Then after the terminal blooms, the next stems (and they would be stems, not massive by any means, would emerge from right angle at the base of that first bloom area. Sometimes, the emergence is from the underside and it makes two or three stems, which bloom. A few more leaf axils could be counted on to put out blooms on short stems.
What you're getting are strong stems coming out sooner. You may not get the zig-zag sort of growth that isn't mistaken for straight. Yours and ehann's may need some help supporting themselves.
In my garden, on my windy hilltop, the zigzagness of the teas makes a light and airy framework that becomes a pick-up-sticks kind of self supporting framework.
Your teas are going to be heavier than mine, so they might need some help staying upright.

About them growing towards the north.
It's logical for the summer growth to reach northward.
The rose is gettin morning and evening sunlight from the northeast (a.m.) and northwest (p.m.) And midday, when the sun is overhead, there's shade.
As the sun route across the sky migrates south, for winter, you will probably see more growth in a southerly direction.
(I had no idea that the sun could shine in a north window when I lived in Houston. The sun cooked some African Violets I had there, and then I was home on a Saturday morning. I watched the sun stream in. For an idea of where the sun is and when, borrow one of the Rodale Passive Solar books from your library. They have good explanatory chapters.)

Ehann, I was afraid someone would say that!

But I think Ann is offering some encouragement. Believe me, there is plenty of sun and heat there even in summer from at least noon til 7PM. The trees have almost no overhang on the south side. It all goes to the north with a huge horizontal limb from which we hung a porch swing. This photo is from a couple of years ago - before roses.
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I'm wondering if it isn't needing a little relief from the sun and that's why it's growing to the north. I once laid a thermometer in the grass in Orlando when air temp was say 93. The thermometer read 130. I know we're not the Arizona desert, but our sun will fry you. It seems like it must be reaching for the cool shade that's only 93. I was shocked to see all that growth to the back today since I hadn't walked back there lately. To look at it from the front, it looks like no growth at all.

Now I have a question about leaflessness (a big problem with my roses). What's the deal here? Summer dormancy? Should I be dumping large quantities of fertilizer (milorganite, RoseTone) on this bush? When I dug this garden (and I can truly claim ignorance at the time. I just didn't know this was a no-no, and now I have no place else to put this rose), the finer roots of these trees just filled the ground, and I'm sure they're back sucking up everything that comes their way. Like I said, I'm using MiracleGro now. BTW, if the bush has no leaves will the canes absorb the MG?

OK, so I gather that this shape and growth is alright at this point. And I'll just stand back and watch the show. I'll keep you posted, Ann. I was told this rose could be 10x10 on fort - after I bought it, naturally.

I think I feel better about it. Thanks a lot, Ann.

Sherry

Sherry, I had a BR Cant on fortuniana when I lived in Florida (Citrus county). I had it for several years, purchased it at Giles, was told it would be a monster. It looked like yours the whole time, and I finally shovel pruned it. I had it in two locations, one hot blazing sun all day and another with some sun relief. Neither did any good. I heavily amended my soil. The holes I planted my roses in were huge, probably 3 feet across by 2-3 feet deep and heavily amended with store-bought soil, aged manure, and other things I can't remember. They all got regular water and fertilizer. It did no good with my BR Cant. She stayed spindly, less than 3 feet tall, and only occasionally put out those luscious blooms. I had other roses on fortuniana from Giles, including some teas, and all were healthy and gorgeous with even less care.

I don't mean to discourage you. Just wanted to let you know it may not be anything you are or are not doing. If I didn't know they once had a huge BR Cant at the college in Lakeland I'd think she just didn't like Florida's weather.

Good luck with her, I hope she comes around.

teeandcee, thanks so much for posting your Florida experience. Citrus County isn't very far. I have seen Mrs B R Cant - several of them - locally, and they really were beautiful bushes - nothing like mine. But really, what you said is an encouragement to me. It's nice to know what you went through with the same rose. We'll see what she does - or doesn't do. :-)

Sherry

teeandcee,
several years ago, someone had a large number of roses from Giles that didn't grow as well as expected. What she reported here was that she had the roses tested for Rose Mosaic Virus and all tested positive for RMVs. This is second hand info but if it's correct it might explain a failure to thrive.

The difference between some from Giles and those in Lakeland are that Malcolm Manners has cleaned RMV out of most, if not all of the roses there and it does make a difference in growth and vigor.

Elaine and other posters

Thanks for a very informative thread, especially helpful to hear from other Florida gardeners. I'm just getting started with heirloom roses and was also in search for fortuniana rooted ones with very little luck so far.

It is SO valuable to read about other Florida rose lovers who have already tried the things I am thinking about. Not only saves me money but time and mostly reduces frustration.
Maybe I should be satisfied with own-root roses for my heirlooms. Mine are all blooming even at their small sizes.

Sherry doesn't exaggerate the temperatures here in the summer. My roses came through just fine, just didn't get much bigger. They and I are looking forward to cooler temps any day.

Denise in Englewood FL

Yes, I'd wondered about RMV. BR Cant was the only one that failed to thrive though (of my Giles roses). I don't know enough about RMV to know if that's typical or not. Wait, I do remember I had a D. Brabant (spelling?) from Giles that I also shovel pruned for the same reason along with a Marachel Niel (spelling?). Hmmmm.

The rose I was the most impressed with in Florida (on fort) was Tausendschon. Two of my photos of a "baby" Tausendschon are on HMF if anyone is interested. One is a bush shot that you Floridians will recognize as being surrounded by gray Florida sand, and the other is the close shot to the left of the bush shot. She's a once bloomer but bloomed for about 2 months and was magnificent and totally healthy. Truly carefree. By the time she stopped blooming it was too hot to be outside anyway. My suspicion is she'd be fine on her own roots.

There's a good chance mine has RMV, too, due to the nursery I bought her from. In that case is this a bush that I might as well take out? I don't know what I would put in her place, considering the trees. I might have to get a good replacement on fortuniana from Malcolm Manners that is able to do battle with the tree roots. What do you all think?

Elaine, I'm wondering how "cool" it has to get for my roses to start breathing again and growing normally. :)) They have shown improvement in the last couple of weeks though.

Sherry

Elaine, let us know how your custom budded roses come out. Some roses do need fortuniana in order to thrive, especially further south than Ocala, where some people hit bedrock fairly quickly. Florida has a huge diversity in soil and pest issues. I've become very interested in Floridas' unique ecology, and am seriously considering some land management classes.

As far as Mrs. BR Cant goes, she is well adapted to Florida conditions. Her failure to thrive is most likely due to virus infection, though some areas of Florida may need her on fortuniana. My Mrs. BR Cant is a very well rounded and well foliated bush, with lots of bloom power. She is 3 feet by 3 feet already, and she was a little 3 gallon planted in late June this year. She is own root. I do have her in full sun on the north side of my lot, and she appreciates Starbucks coffee grounds and worm castings from time to time.

That said, some fortuniana grafted roses can take some time to get going, while others take right off.

Sandy

Sherry, I can tell you that since it cooled off some, my roses have started taking off. I know that Teas typically put on a lot of growth in the fall.

Sandy--my soil is very strange. There's places in the back yard that have great soil, nice and dark. And there's places in the front yard that are essentially nothing but sand.
Denise, welcome to the forum--it's challenging to garden down here, but it sure is fun!

For Florida, I can't imagine anything better than Cramoisi Superior. I planted my teeny ownroot baby 18 months ago, hardly more than a rooted cutting and I just can not believe how it has taken off! Over six feet tall and about four wide. Right now is covered in flowers. I'm seriously considering making a hedge out of them.

Elaine

Elaine, a hedge of CS sounds magnificent. I had two Louis Philippes that took up pretty much the whole side of my house (the narrow end actually) and had grown together so they just looked like one gigantic bush and what a show they put on!