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Question about found roses

random_harvest
12 years ago

I was cutting big, fat, juicy hips off Madame Antoine Mari and Lady Hillingdon this morning and got to wondering. Is it possible that some of the "found" roses that resist positive identification could be seedlings that somehow managed to grow and prosper? How common is it for rose seedlings to volunteer, anyway? I've never seen it happen here, but I deadhead pretty religiously.

I hope this isn't a dumb question.

Comments (10)

  • berndoodle
    12 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Yes, it is possible that some found roses are seedlings, although really full, nice roses are less likely to be unnamed seedlings than, say, some of the semi-double, pale colored types that are typical of many seedlings.

    I get several (4-5) volunteer seedlings every year that survive to the point that I notice them. I'm sure there are many more, including the Rosa californica seedling I was looking forward to growing out, that are eaten by vermin. I don't deadhead much, and, for more fun, I tend to toss hips into the mulch when I prune in winter, specifically so I can enjoy seedlings.

    Not a dumb question at all.

  • kstrong
    12 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I do that too. Every year when pruning I put the ripe hips into a separate can I carry, and then I throw them all into a pot that sits next to the compost pile. I do occasionally get seedlings that come up there, with no special care, and sometimes I can even tell by appearance to what rose those seedlings are related. Most look like Mozart here -- a single pink with tiny flowers -- and those get tossed out, as one can only grow so many Mozart look-alikes. And the ones that don't bloom the first year I assume are once bloomers, and those get tossed too. I'm keeping two that look respectively like Berries N Cream and Fourth of July, except that neither one seems to be a climber.

    Kathy

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  • anntn6b
    12 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Kathy,
    Do you do this with any noisette hips? According to Doug Seidel (and this matches what I've seen in my garden) true noisette seedlings take at least two years to bloom (and then they repeat happily.)
    IMO, we can always use more noisettes.

    Ann

  • mariannese
    12 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    This is one conclusion we've come to in Sweden where there's a national project for collecting and identifying old roses, both found roses and nameless roses in gardens with a documented history going back at least 50 years. We've arranged Antique Roadshows for Roses for the past five years, from the far north to the extreme south of the country. The project will be finished this fall.

    1500 of the more interesting finds are being grown in a trial field at the Fredriksdal rosarium in Helsingborg to give them all the same growing conditions. Many have been proven to be wellknown varieties but very many cannot be immediately identified. We usually know what class they belong to and gene mapping have shown many to be similar to known varieties but slightly different while quite a few are unique. One explanation is of course that these roses are so old that for instance the gallicas may be one of the many lost varieties that existed in their heyday. Or they are spontaneous hybrids and seedlings of known varieties.

  • jerijen
    12 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Some -- particularly the more full-petalled ones that are not likely to be seedlings -- may instead be un-documented sports of known roses.

    Jeri

  • berndoodle
    12 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    What a wonderful project you've undertaken in Sweden! I hope that the results will be available in English so we can learn from your experience. I wish the results were available on a website.

  • random_harvest
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Yes, I would love to know more about how the Antique Roadshow for Roses works. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and Kathy, I am immediately copying your ripe hip pot idea.

  • mariannese
    12 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    The official name for the rose inventory is "The Call for Roses" but in the inventory groups we've been calling it the Antique Roadshow for Roses because then the public will understand that's it like the TV show.

    The first summer was devoted to training at the Uppsala University Botanic Garden, an experimental garden at the Agricultural University and a few private gardens. In the Uppland province where I live we started with 25 volunteers but after five years we are five left in the Uppsala region. Volunteers from Stockholm formed their own group so as not to have to travel so far and be closer to the roses in their neighbourhoods. Several participants were professionals who only wanted to learn about roses and dropped out of the program after the training, others moved.

    The following seasons we decided on where to go and picked places we thought would be interesting for various reasons, about 4 each summer. Uppsala is the largest city in Uppland so we had the first "show" there and advertised in the local papers and local radio. Visitors were asked to bring a long shoot, with thorns, a bud, an open flower and if possible, one of last year's hips, old pictures of the bush or shrub if there are any.

    The main attraction at the first occasion was the most famous rose expert in Sweden, also one of the leaders of this inventory. Hundreds of people showed up, it was quite hysterical and we were not well organized. We had set up tables with two volunteers at each and thought that people would sedately go to any of the tables with their roses. But most people wanted only to talk to Lars-e Gustavsson and ignored the rest of us. We had to be stern. Most visitors had only common varieties and Lars-Ãke could not be bothered with all the Maidens's Blush, Double White and Rosa alba Maxima. He had to concentrate on the more difficult roses.

    POM had printed forms for people to fill in, basic info such as their name and address, the location of the rose if not in their own garden. These forms were distributed at a table at the gate and people were helped to fill in as much as they knew about the rose. The first edition of the forms was too detailed and took far too long to fill in. We now use a shorter version without every detail of sepals, serrated leaves and glands, etc. We note them if necessary only. Each volunteer has his own code to put on every form with the date and place of the meeting with the informant. One such reads MAE-2009-08-13-01. MAE is myself and that day I was at a place on the Baltic coast in the garden of Mrs Ingrid P to look closer at a rose she'd brought to a show earlier that day. It is a burgundy red climbing rose planted by her father-in-law in the late 40ies. We haven't been able to put a name to it but hopefully the people at the rosarium will. 01 means that it was the first rose I documented in that garden. If Mrs P had had more roses they would have been 02, 03 etc. The original form is sent to POM in Helsingborg, a copy kept by the investigator.

    The next tables were for sorting the roses into easy and difficult roses. People with the most common kinds were sent off happily with a beautiful post card with printed information about their rose. We have a set of cards with all the most common varieties in Sweden: Alba Maxima, Minette, Rosa majalis Foecundissima (the double cinnamon rose), R. spinosissima Plena, Blush Damask, R. francofurtana Agatha and Maiden's Blush. The absolute majority of presented roses were one of these varieties. Later when only two or three of us were out on our own we would whisper among ourselves that we hoped the next rose would be a Maxima or some other wellknown rose. Gallicas are difficult because there is an enormous variety of them in this country. Modern roses are too difficult and often too young to be included in this project. People will often have a hazy idea of the real age of a rose they've always called "Granny's rose". We keep a set of the most comprehensive Swedish rose books and show people pictures of their roses if we can find it. Some of us have many roses and if we're lucky we grow the rose ourselves.

    We do not dismiss all common roses, if there is an interesting history connected with the rose we write it down in detail. Some of the stories will be included in an anthology after the close of the project. People have been encouraged to submit more details afterwards because it is not easy to remember everything at once. Some also send in old family photos with the rose in the background.

    If a rose seems interesting and the owner has brought too little material we visit their gardens to dig up suckers or take cuttings. Both suckers and cuttings are sent to Helsingborg, suckers to be planted, cuttings to be rooted or budded by a specialist. I have sent only one rose to be budded, an HP.

    The most troublesome part for me has been to have to go again to a garden and ask to have a new sucker a year after the first visit because the plant at the trial field died. Distances are long here and I don't drive so I have to ask my husband to take me to the coast soon for a particular rose.

    All volunteers are invited to a weekend meeting in the fall at a conference center in the middle of Sweden so it's not too far for most people. Those from the far north have to fly though. All costs are met by POM. The next meeting will be October 30-31 and I look forward to it. All groups present their most interesting finds and the leaders give us the latest info on the whole program.

    Here is a link that might be useful: The Swedish POM rose inventory

  • berndoodle
    12 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    What an enormous undertaking! It's a life's work. The inventory lists an enormous number of roses. Please let us know if and when the roses can be viewed at the Fredriksdal rosarium in Helsingborg. For those of us in mild climates, the inventory represents the Who's Who of hardy roses, a number of which refuse to flourish in mild climates.

    Here is a link that might be useful: inventory

  • mariannese
    12 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I saw the trial field from outside a few years ago, only staff is allowed inside the low fence now. The roses were still small so it was a compact sheet of roses of about the same 3 ft height in white, pink, rose, red, purple, and yellow. From a distance many looked to be the same variety so I think they will not all be kept for the future. Many roses have obviously been distributed among relatives and friends over the years, some long distances when brides have brought the favourite rose from their parental home.

    I am bringing three more roses to the collection in October! The latest is a bourbon I've got permission to dig up on Saturday in the owners' absence. They have several plants and told me I may get one for myself if I find enough suckers. They are very proud that their rose is of general interest and all garden owners have reacted the same way.

    A big headache for the project management is to find locations for local gene archives where local roses may be grown on. Growing conditions at Fredriksdal are better than most in Sweden and the roses should be grown somewhere closer to where they grew originally and serve as examples to local gardeners and plant centers of what is suitable to their conditions. Only one rose is being offerered commercially so far but more will follow. Some are really gorgeous and would be a great addition to the choice of roses in commerce, especially as they are all healthy in spite of decades or more of neglect.