Hi Kate. It's all location, location, location. Regions with milder winters result in less winter kill, so roses go into spring with taller (more productive) cane. I grow about 180 roses here in zone 5; about a dozen of them are hybrid teas. In most of my garden I have to prune them back almost to the ground in spring, despite good winterizing. However, I grow some on the protected east wall of our home (Virginia, Helen Naude, Candia, Brigadoon, Kordes Perfecta, Jema, Pristine) and they perform more like a zone 7 rose. Right now they are about 5 feet tall and have been pumping out beautiful roses all summer. My next best hybrid teas (Chicago Peace, Rina Hugo, Love and Peace) are grown in pots and spend the winter in the garage. They do not achieve the height of the in-ground roses on the East wall, but are extremely productive bloomers. Those hybrid teas in the more open exposed areas of the garden only get 3 feet tall or so, have fewer blooms and a slower rebloom cycle.

I'm not in your zone, but my DD took about 3 years to really do well and pump out the blooms. It could also have been when I started spraying with the Bayer advanced disease control. Before that, DD (and Peace) were horrible diseased most of the time and did badly.

Since you moved yours, it may not have had the time to put out an extensive root system to put on a lot of growth.

Still, mine is about 4 x 5. It could be taller, but I keep it low. But I love DD. It is one rose I would consider getting another just for cutting flowers for the house.

That digger is a terrible rascal. {{gwi:323295}} He would probably post pics of the DD out front in full sun and not mention the one {{gwi:323296}} on the side of the house with only a half day of sun doesn't get as tall. He would probably be nasty enough to even say the one out front had 60+ blooms last flush. At least you don't have to deal with pics he has taken of DD the last couple days.... she is just starting to bloom again and there hasn't been time to upload more pics.... well except that first bloom {{gwi:323297}}

I'm sorry Kate, I had to do it :) DD is such a great rose here in Montana. The size I note in comments at HMF is at the end of the season. The bush pics here were taken a couple months ago and DD was only 4 x 4. {{gwi:323298}}

forgot to mention... the DD out front was planted in 2001 and the one on the side of the house in 97. They are well established.

digger

That bloom pic was the last of the second 2007 flush taken a couple weeks ago. There was a lot of wildfire smoke in the sky and the color of DD was interesting in that light. {{gwi:323299}} is the bloom I meant to link. Was that a shotgun action I heard? What do you mean it is only loaded with rock salt?? LOL

Hi Kate,

I grew one from a cutting last year and it's a big full plant this year and blooming lots. The parent plant grows in a local rose garden and is never more than 18" tall (not winter protected) and usually sports a couple of puny blooms throughout summer.

I am afraid to plant my DD in the ground simply because it does so well in a pot. HT's take a long time to establish in my climate, too.

Cheers,
Michelle

Well, digger, I should get mad at you, but honestly, nothing is aimed your direction. Besides, you are always so charming, and you can't help it if you grow the most fabulous roses--I always admire your pics. And thanks for reassuring me that not all your roses grow as vigorously as the one pictured at HMF--though the smaller one looks awfully good also.

I neglected to mention above that I have two DD (you were probably wondering why I referred to three HTs when I only listed two). The other DD has been in the ground for a number of year--maybe 5 or 6--and is no larger than the newer one I moved twice in one season a couple years ago. But your post reminds me that the older DD doesn't get quite as much sun as the newer one.

But I'm still stuck with 3 ft HTs with only 6 or 8 or sometimes 10 blooms. Sigh.

Other midwesterners have my problem?

Kate

LOL Kate, you should see how mad a local lady gets at me. She comes by almost every weekend (for the last 8 or so years) since a local nursery gave her directions to our house. She starts out fine when she gets here but gets so angry she can't talk. She is positive we have a secret we aren't revealing so nobody can have roses as nice as ours. Funny thing is... I have shown her all our 'secrets'. She always says "that is too much work". What can I say? The shadow of the gardener is our secret. I even quit using the soaker hose watering system we set up. I notice so much when hand watering. It has really killed her since I quit using any fungicide. She has watched me wash the foliage and says I am crazy. That can't stop powdery mildew like we get here. I do have to quit provoking/teasing her when she insinuates I am fibbing to her. I would feel terrible if she had a stroke during one of our sessions. Deb told me I would... even if she does beg to be teased :) For that matter, you ought to see some of the emails I have had forwarded to me from friends here. There are people at this forum that insist I am 'up to something'. Wish I could figure out what I am up to :)

Oh, Deb pointed out another oops. The minis in that front bed were planted in 2001. DD was planted in 2000.

I should edit my comment at HMF. The 40 to 60 blooms and 4 to 5 feet tall and wide is a combination of both DDs. It should say the one with sun half the day gets 4 x 4 with 40+ blooms on an 11 year old bush. The one in full sun gets 5 x 5 with 60+ blooms and is 8 years old. Thank you for making me aware of that. It would make more sense reworded. Sometimes I know what I mean but no other soul on earth does.

that danged digger

I meant to show how DD looked at we cleaned the bed in March. {{gwi:323300}} the stumps closest to the right edge is DD. I only cut enough cane to clean out the beds in March. The canes were 6 to 12 inches tall after I pruned in April. Doesn't look like much does it? Watching those stumps become a wonderful bush always seems magical to me. 3 months later that bed looked {{gwi:323301}} It is magic :)

that crazy danged digger

"The shadow of the gardener"-- nice phrase. No doubt Digger and Deb give outstanding TLC. But, once the HTs survive three winters and get built up through D&D's skill and patience, Montana might actually offer better growing conditions than Kansas or a lot of places. 14-16 hours of sunlight, moderate summer temperatures (normally), no blackspot, no growth retardance from routine use of fungicides, and Digger's imported deep loam soil.

Karen,
There are so many variables, soil type, moisture, type and how much fertilizer, mulch or not, spray or no-spray, fish emulsion, alfalfa tea, Monty's Joy Juice, root stock or own root, (fortuniana root stock can result in very tall bushes), loose soil or compact, etc., etc., etc.
As long as your roses are healthy, be happy.
My tallest bushes occured the three summers I vigorously cut blooms for my church each Sunday.
It seemed the more blooms I cut, the more blooms and taller the bushes, not more than 6 feet in my growing area though. I'd cut 200 to 300 blooms each week. By Monday of the following week, you could not tell I'd cut.
To sustain this bloom I had to fertilize lots and often.
I was in my garden almost all of my free time.
I'm in NW Indiana. While visiting an avid exhibitor in Central Indiana I noticed his bushes were a little taller and bushier than mine. Southern Indiana, Northern Kentucky, taller and bushier still. As you go south in the midwest, the quality and amount of sunlight increase. This alone makes for better growing conditions. This, plus a slightly earlier spring and later fall means a longer growing season.
After knocking myself out like you trying to figure out what I was doing wrong, I finally accepted that I'd have to move if I wanted consistantly taller and bushier roses given my time restraints caring for what I had. I like where I live and the four seasons so I do the best I can with the conditions I have.
If I can get a healthy rose bush four feet high that blooms consistantly, I'm happy.
The few shrub roses that get taller and bushier are mostly hardy Canadian Explorers or Rugosas that don't require severe pruning each spring.
My tallest bushes are my 20-30 climbers and they seldom get taller than 6-7 feet.
Perhaps acceptance comes with age?

People think I am joking when I say we live in rose heaven Michael. Conditions are wonderful during the growing season. The season is short enough that we are disappointed when cold weather comes and are chomping at the bit to get out there in spring. Memom told me about the shadow of the gardener when was a little digger. I still smile whenever I read it anywhere :) I do find that patience makes up for what I lack in skills, LOL. All the factors you mention are part of why our yard looks the way it does. All we have to do is get a rose through that 1st winter.

digger

I agree with Karl when he said, "If I can get a healthy rose bush four feet high that blooms consistantly, I'm happy."
But what I want to know is how do you get all those beautiful blooms all at once? Just like Kate, at the most I get on a bush is 6-8 blooms. I feed my roses pretty well and they get alot of sun. What do you feed your roses digger? Is there a special fertilizer you use?
Your yard is so beautiful with all those wonderful looking roses.

Kate, it takes a lot of energy for a rose to put out all those extra blooms. With my sandy soil, I find I have to feed and water the roses frequently and protect the foliage and buds from disease and insects. I use quite a bit of organic fertilizer (our rose society makes a mix of alfalfa meal, bone meal, blood meal, etc.) and I give each rose 4 cups a summer, plus an early spring feeding of a half cup of 10-10-10 and 2 Tbsp of Osmacote. I water them daily during the hot summer and keep them mulched. This works very well for my particular climate and soil and results in a much heavier bloom than I have ever had before.

Digger feeds Miracle Gro. Other people with exceptional gardens use 10-10-10 plus alfalfa, or Rose Tone, etc. In other words, there is no magic fertilizer. The first thing I'd look to is water. Plants' use of water goes up quite a bit when temperatures are over 90. Also I think we need to accept that gardens have different environmenntal limitations. My roses get a half day sun in a fairly cloudy climate. There is just not enough energy available for maximum bloom. When I had Double Delight, I suppose I had flushes of around 25 and wass satisfied with that. Other people have excessive heat during much of the growing season that prevents many roses from doing their best.

I'm taking notes, but don't see anything much different than what I do for my roses. I give my roses a spring and early summer dose of alfalfa, RoseTone in the spring and Osmocote for the summer. All my roses get 6 or more hours of sun, and I water, water, water all summer during our 90+ to 100+ weather. I realize they have slowed down now after weeks of 100s, but the cooler spring and fall weather doesn't produce any burst of growth that would make my HTs grow suddenly to 4-5 ft or suddenly have 25 blooms. And I occasionally spray fungicide spring and fall, so excessive disease isn't the problem.

Basically, my HTs look healthy and bloom, but stay around 3ft and produce 6-10 blooms at a time.

Maybe I shouldn't rely so much on Osmocote in the summer?

Kate

With highs consistently over 90 and heavy irrigation, the plastic-coated fertilizers probably release faster, feeding heavier than designed at first, and then running low for the last part of the interval. So one might try applying 2/3 of the labeled dose and assume it runs out in 2/3 of the labeled interval. (Or 3/4 and 3/4.) Supplement with fast granular or soluble for the rest of your fertilizing season. I haven't actually done this, but it sounds good. :)

It seems like you should be getting a burst of growth in September and that some HTs should grow to 4-6 feet.

Kate,we have a Rio Samba in a prime spot in the yard with full sun until about 1700. It is only 2 - 3 feet tall and only has a dozen or so blooms per flush. Deb and Dave Boyd claim their Rio Samba gets 5 feet tall and has 50+ blooms per flush. What is going on? One was planted in 1995 and the little one was planted last year. I don't expect the new one to ever catch the old. Perhaps it will have 50+ blooms per flush in 5 or 6 years. By then.... I imagine Deb's beloved original Rio will have even more per flush. One reason I put when a rose is planted in my comments at HMF is so no person reading it will compare a new rose to one that is established. Our DDs were not this good 5 years ago. They should be better in 5 years. There is nothing you can do to get a 3rd year rose that has been transplanted to perform like our 8 and 11 year old DDs. Given time to get established... I see no reason why it couldn't perform as well as ours. I hope you take this the right way. I mentioned the age of our roses before in the thread. I know I'm being blunt. I was serious when I said, "I do find that patience makes up for what I lack in skills". Here is a link to the comments page for Lucy at HMF. Read my comments about her. We waited 5 years for her to give us over a dozen blooms per flush. Some seem to forget the one cane wonder years she gave us when they see her covered in blooms now that she is 14 years old.

Ramlinrosez, we use Miraclegro. If anything, we underfeed. I don't try to force roses. We just try to keep them healthy and are happy with what they give us. That bed pic?? The front row is Gene Boerner, Iceberg, Irresistible, First Edition and Betty Boop. They are all bloom factories. Heirloom is the only HT we have that gets covered with blooms like they do. OK.... a few of the others come pretty close :)

Another factor not mentioned: we don't mail order roses. Each rose is inspected by both of us and only the healthiest come to our yard. I have even rejected roses that looked great but didn't 'feel' right. Figure that one out. Sorry about the babbling, LOL. It got to 100° here today and the a/c is kaput on my excavator. We are not used to triple digits. Bet Kate regrets mentioning me in this thread :)

Now I am glad I mentioned your name, digger. Yes, you included planting dates, I realize now--but when I was first reading the earlier entries, I was so focused on size and number of blooms that the planting dates whizzed right past me. Thank you for coming back and emphasizing how much older your plants are. That gives me hope--maybe in a few more years I too can have something approaching legendary HTs. LOL

michaelg,
Thanks for the feeding suggestions. I started using Osmocote in the summer because it is so danged hot here that I don't want to do anything more with my roses other than water them. Actually, I don't want to go out in the heat and even water, but it does seem a necessary commitment.

What I really aspire to is being a lazy gardener, but my roses don't seem to be cooperating in that project. LOL

By the way, besides my handful of HTs, I have about 50 modern shrubs, climbers, hybrid musks, even one rugosa, etc. But somehow I felt I wasn't getting a handle on the HTs. OK--I'll just relax and let them mature. Temps will be in the 80s this week--maybe I'll see a bit more growth/production this month??? My optimism is returning with the cooler weather and everybody's good advice and encouragement.

Kate