Below is a picture of Firefighter Hybrid Tea, bought as a gallon from Roses Unlimited this year, but now loaded with 20+ buds/blooms. It's very healthy & I don't spray.

Strawberry Hill...I'm so sorry to hear about the disappointing visit to Cantigny. I'm surprised that they would let things go like that. Their grounds have always been so well maintained whenever I've been there. Oh well, I'll still be going in the fall. :-)

BTW, your roses are *gorgeous*. I love your Linnie, even though I've been a more "many petaled" rose admirer. Linnie reminds me a bit of the Dainty Bess i used to have. Not so much in color, but in the flower form. Dainty Bess's flowers always utterly charmed me, even though, for me, she was not the most vigorous grower.

I am no rose expert, but it seems to me that your firefighter has the most perfectly formed blooms. Lovely!

Hi full_bloom: Good to hear from you. Cantigny was very gorgeous last year, due to winter-die-back from Chicago 2011 harsh winter. Last year my Knockouts died to the crown, and grew less than a foot tall by June 1. This year with a mild winter, no die back, roses grow big and wild in the heat. My Radio Times was new last year, and Golden Cel. was a tiny band. If I don't trim Radio Times, it would get 6' x 6'. I don't trim Golden Cel., now it's 5' x 6'.

I was checking on "Easy Going" since I want a yellow to complement "Lynnie". I found a post by Hoovb describing "Easy going" as scattered blooms among a wide field of green, rather than a compact bouquet effect of "Day Breaker". So she removed "Easy going". Molineux would be a hardier choice of yellow for my zone 5a. The summer heat also does that to a few Austins: Green Giants with a few blooms on top. There are a few roses at Cantigny that remain "compact bouquet" from last month's heat: Gene Boerner, Singin' in the rain, Braveheart, and Double Delight (thorny but loaded with blooms).

Ater my park-visit, I'm disappointed with the massive growth of shrubs with no winter-kill, that I'll leaning toward miniflora and polyantha for that "compact bouquet" and "tons of blooms" look. I'll postpone my trip to Chicago Botanical Garden until next spring, roses will be more compact & more blooms with winter-die-back. Chicago Botanical has over 5,000 rose bushes, versus over 1,000 for Cantigny park.

Here is a link that might be useful: Hoovb post on

Dieback from the previous winter dictates how large a rose will be in the spring and how far back it needs to be pruned. Personally I've never run into the problem that a large, healthy shrub in the spring means no blooms later in the year; quite the opposite.

The larger factor this year that was discussed often was the extreme heat and lack of rainfall. Everything leapt ahead during the prime conditions during our early spring, putting on lots of large, healthy growth, but bloom production dwindled with the taxing effects of 100 degree heat.

The biggest factor we've noticed in visiting public gardens is the timing of the visit. We've been alternately impressed or disappointed depending on catching everything in flush or showing up right after everything has been trimmed back. The most spectacular time to visit has typically been the first flush; anything after that is like throwing the dice.

Most roses shut down in the heat. The ones that can bloom through probably can't thrive in a cold winter climate. I suspect that that heat is the most important factor you are seeing here.

I like best shrubs with some size on them, not neglected plants, but plants that are pruned moderately, neither too hard nor barely at all. Severe pruning year after year, whether done by the gardener or by nature itself, is very hard on the plant. Ultimately the stress of it can shorten the plant's life expectancy.

Rosefolly

Very good point, Rosefolly. Pruning depends on the rainfall. Here in northern Illinois, we get 38" of snow, then wet spring with annual rainfall of 40". Roses can be pruned hard by winter or by me and bloom even more. Not so with dry climate.

I live 15 minutes from Cantigny Park, and 1 hour from Chicago Botanical Garden. We get free passes to both, but we visit Cantigny more often, except this year with my adding 32 roses to my garden. Yesterday I also visited a 3rd rose park at Danana horse ranch ... roses there are so clean and lush, which motivates me to get more horse manure for my garden.

Well most probably EG is going to be smaller in your climate, and one harsh winter will prune all your roses hard whether you want them pruned or not. Climate makes a huge difference.

Hi Strawberry Hill...I've been to Chicago Botanic Gardens many times, in fact, was just there a few weeks ago. And yes, the roses were somewhat disappointing there this year. My favorite spot there is the Japanese Gardens and the Idea Gardens. I've never been to Danada Ranch. I know of the Danada shopping mall, but where is Danada Ranch?

Re Molineux...that's one I have it's a pretty thing and actually stays much shorter than the other DA's I have (all older varieties...I haven't purchased any new roses in a few years). Anyway, I really like Molineux and even considered using it for the front garden, but I detect a little bit of red in the buds and even in the bloom edges at times and I thought it wasn't quite right for what I had planned. But it grows well for me, stays pretty shrubby *and* healthy and the flowers are very pretty. You might want to give it a try?

I've pretty much made up my mind now that it's going to be Julia Child or Easy Going with either Mystic or Princess Alexander of Kent. But, I just saw a link for Pappu's garden and wow those Living Easy's sure look gorgeous. Have you grown that one and if so, how well did it do for you?

Hi Full-Bloom: My favorite is also the Japanese Gardens at the Chicago Botanical Garden. Danada horse ranch is inside DuPage Forest Preserve, the rose park is WAY-in the back of the park. My husband does his marathon run there, and found the rose park recently.

Julia Child is big and bushy (wide feet) at Cantigny, at least 4' x 4', it's best to see it first, before you buy it. When I traced the multiflora or rugosa heritage, Easy going has some of that. It will survive winter if your soil is neutral or acidic, but roots shrink in alkaline soil and can't make it over the winter like Jay-Jay, zone 6a, with soil pH at 8. My Austin Eglantyne didn't make it last winter although it's our warmest one. It has rugosa parentage and roots shrink in my alkaline soil. It only gives me 2 blooms per year.

I don't grow Living Easy. It's related to Easy Going. If you have neutral or acidic soil, both of them should bloom well, and survive the winter. They will be stingy-bloomer in my alkaline soil, and won't make it through zone 5a winter.

Hi Strawberry Hill...I had Daybreaker as standards for a few years...beautiful blooms, but mine were kind of black spot prone (maybe because they were in pots)?

Interesting about pH and roses. I never knew that. Did I read that right? Your soil has a pH of 8? I haven't had my soil tested in many years, but the last time I had it tested it was 6.8 or 6.9, so it's pretty much neutral. I didn't know there was such a large range of pH in Illinois soil. But then again, it's been many years since I took a soil class and my mind is a sieve, so I have to admit, I don't really remember that much about it.

Hi Full_Bloom: My soil is tested by EarthCo. to be pH of 7.7, high in magnesium and deficient in potassium. Jay_Jay in the Netherlands has clay soil pH of 8 with Easy Going rose struggled in his winter. He grows Sophie Perpetual, so his zone might be warmer than 6a.

There's a yellow floribunda which is VERY disease-resistant, compact shape. It's "Honey Bouquet". Lots of people like Honey Bouquet, including me. Like Hoovb, the more roses I grow, the more I pay attention to bush shape. Austin Golden Cel.'s bloom is the most gorgeous yellow, but the bush is messy 5' x 6' here. Easy Going is reported to be 3' x 4' in zone 5, Honey Bouquet is more compact.

It was costly losing Eglantyne last winter, so I bought another Eglantyne gallon-size and watch its roots and size shrink in my alkaline soil - the second time! Niels in Denmark lost hundreds of roses this past winter. His soil is acidic clay in his warmer zone 5b. Since I'm zone 5a, I don't grow a rose unless it survived the winter for someone else in a similar climate and soil. If you search for Predfern, then click on his username, he listed how hundred of roses performed in his zone 5a Chicagoland. His soil is neutral or slightly acidic. He lost too many roses over the winter, and saved me money with his guidance. For a special rose like Kim Rupert's Annie L. McDowell, zone 6b, I'll winterize her in my garage.

I checked Predfern's list of roses that survived zone 5a Chicagoland winter. He grows rugosas, so his soil is acidic. French Romantica roses were bred in alkaline soil, and they are VERY vigorous in my garden, and also at Cantigny's park. Unfortunately a few Romantica roses died on Predfern for his neutral/acidic soil, zone 5a.

Here is a link that might be useful: Predfern list of roses in neutral/acidic soil zone 5a

I tend to grow mostly hardy roses here, so get little winter die-back in most years anyway. I don't rely on mother nature to knock my roses back with winter kill. I try to moderately shape my shrubs with pruning every winter/spring. Rainfall seems to affect how large/wild they will get more than anything, though genetics plays a part too as some varieties will become octopuses and others stay compact (love the Portlands for compact growth). Best looking and blooming roses are well shaped, fertilized, well-watered. They tend to look leggy this time of year due to leaf loss due to blackspot or heat stress and top growth from summer. You can cut them back a little in summer up to about mid-August here to shape them up if you don't like the overgrown look.

I think this thread also points out how differently our personal perfect rose desires are, I would LOVE to have a 4x4 Julia Child and next season, I think I know one Golden Celebration that is going to be hunting yet another happy home just so I can hopefully get a 4'w and 6f tall Julia (I hear she can get big here)

Our Mission rose garden had a beautiful first flush of HT many of which were 3-4 feet tall.

But if you like smaller lower roses, this would be horrible.

What is wonderful for one is not for another. A good thing to remember when looking at posts about roses.

Note, I am not saying anyone that likes smaller roses is wrong, just that different people have different tastes and is one one of the many wonderful things about gardening and gardens.

There is a difference between tall roses with water, and tall roses without water. Last wet & cool spring display at Cantigny after harsh winter die-back was GORGEOUS - all blooms, could hardy see the leaves on some bushes. Knock-outs were 6' tall, all red like a fire engine, well-shaped with tons of blooms.

Tall roses without pruning and water is different: it's wild like the Amazon jungle, all canes, and a few blooms on top, very depressive. I would need a ladder to sniff the few blooms on top. Thanks, Lori for the tip on August pruning - I did that too. Portlands are my favorite - I gave away Jacques Cartier since he was stingy, but I miss his healthy foliage and compact shape. Comte de Chambord is my favorite here.

I cut Comte de Chambord for the vase frequently. It pumps out more, and stays compact 1.5' x 1'. The scent smells like a complex perfume, very enchanting:

Like Firefighter, 2007 Sweet Promise HT likes hard pruning. It breaks out in clustered blooms after a hard prune, and plenty of water.

No doubt there's a difference between a happy rose, and one who's been without water, but I think, in general, this is a bad year to really judge rose performance. Hottest summer on record and a severe drought on top of it. I think almost anything that hasn't been babied is going to look a little haggard right about now.

Living in Texas, I can't even imagine what it's like to have your roses pruned by natured down to the crown. I tend to get more flowers and faster rebloom with a larger bush than a small one, but maybe that's just my climate.

No, I definitely get many more flowers and faster rebloom from a larger bush. To the point that most of my 'good' roses are between big and enormous, and the smaller ones tend to be on the shovel prune list. The only reason some of them still exist is because they are so small the space they take up doesn't matter.

Last week I had to help pick roses for a rose garden restoration. The requirements were good, healthy, bedding roses, and I was having a hard time coming up with any from my garden. Possibly the smallest good rose I grow is Frontenac - a mere 4 x 4.

I agree: the larger the bush, the more flowers. However, I aim for quality, rather than quantity. The bush is healthier and has better foliage with frequent pruning. I save more money with smaller bushes: less watering and less yard waste cost, less dead-heading, less pruning, and more time to enjoy flowers.

With our record heat over 90's last month, I planned on giving away Scepter'd Isle and Charles Darwin so I pruned them down to 1' x 1' - and let Mother Nature waters them. They actually look better that way, no more octopus canes with droopy leaves begging for water. I did the same for Evelyn, she's cute with new buds - I'm just as happy with one bloom per day, rather than several.

Kippy is right per "It depends on what one prefers. There's really no right way or wrong way." I visit Cantigny park frequently over the past 20 years. The best spring display was when we had the most brutal winter and most snow: HTs' and Florbidundas died to the crown in Feb., followed by 3 months of spring rain, and put forth a glorious display in June, all the energy went into buds, rather than long canes.

The park looked good during 2004 drought. This year northern Illinois had a minor drought early summer, then regular rain afterwards. We had similar summer heat, and higher electric bills before. The only difference is no winter-kill this year, and most are green to the tip, or no pruning by Mother Nature.

Northern Illinois is still in a moderate drought and 9 inches below normal levels for the year. A little rain over Labor Day from Isaac's remnants helped, but it's nowhere near normal. As Brittie said, it's a poor year to make judgments as nearly the entire summer can be considered an outlier.

There's nothing wrong with preferring small shrubs, but in general the larger, more mature parts of a shrub produce the best quality blooms (with stronger stems) and are better suited to withstand winter.

Here is a link that might be useful: Natl Weather Svc precip data

I prune like Lori suggested from her zone 6 and many OGRs: early spring then stop at mid-August. Krista from zone 5a New York once posted pictures of quite small Eglantyne and Sharifa Asma with at least 80+ blooms per bush. I asked her, she said to prune them really short in spring, and fertilize with alfalfa meal and soluble organic fertilizer. Krista has the largest collection of Austins and OGRs, hundreds, see the link below for names of her roses:

David Austin catalog has the below guideline for pruning, with the lower limit for dry & hot climate, and the upper limit for humid climate with rain. It stated "for mild winters, Jan. and Feb. is best. For cold winters, when spring growth just started.

English roses and repeat-shrub: cut down by 1/3 to 2/3.
Bush Roses (Hybrid teas and Floribundas) cut down harder by 1/2 to 3/4. Non-repeating shrub: leave alone, or prune no more than 1/3.

There's a picture on page 105 of David Austin's catalog which recommended pruning down to 5 sets of leaves, after the first flowering. Then prune down to 2 sets of leaves after the 2nd flowering. Also cut back the stems after flowering by 18".

Here is a link that might be useful: Krista, 2001 list of roses in her zone 5a garden

Hi Strawberryhill, beautiful blooms on both Comte de Chambord and Sweet Promise!

Yes, I prune back the Austins in spring, removing about 1/3 of the growth, this can vary depending on the variety. Some I prune back more than others.

I know the pic you are thinking of... that's an immature Eglantyne... It's larger now, but yes it does bloom heavily for me, and it's one of my best Austins. Tall canes I prune back in spring only; deadheading is the only trimming I do in summer.

I do like the organic fertilizers, the Austins thrive on this.

Good to hear from you, Krista! At the rose park this weekend, blackspot was rampant, even on BS-resistant shrub like Singin' in the Rain. They spray monthly. The library's Lady Elsie May roses are also naked. It was nice to see the rose park by the horse ranch clean, mulched with horse manure. So I went home and mulched my roses again with horse manure for our weekly rains.

I discussed with Kim Rupert as to why this past green-to-the-tip mild winter equal more diseases at the rose park, he replied, "it makes sense that the canes being killed to the ground would eliminate black spot. The spores can over winter in lesions on the canes. Freeze off the canes, and you freeze off the spores. Problem solved!"

University of Illinoios recommends pruning down to 2" on the disease-prone roses. Winter-die-back to crown can be a blessing in disguise, if the rose survives. I'm lazy in pruning, so I look forward for normal zone 5a winter with die-back to the crown. Krista, check out my Paul Neyron, I have to cut him short since he's tall and gangly. He's my favorite now.

I tried DA's advice but the roses insist on growing tall again before making any flowers at the tips. Now I just let them spread out and octopus away. The bent down canes make more blooms. I have a few like Ambridge, Tamora and Charlotte that flower on shorter canes, but here on the warm part of the CA coast, most of my DA roses seem to want to be tall. I have a row of DAs along a fence and I keep them tied up so they don't grab anyone but they look so much better when they can spread out naturally. I'm going to move them this winter from the wall because they never wanted to be short and DA's pruning advice never worked for me. I'm thinking about a row of Reine Victoria there instead.

Great pic of Paul Neyron! I just love mine, the big cabbage blooms and fragrance!

I agree, Krista, I love Paul Neyron's scent - quite strong in my alkaline soil

THANK YOU, Kittymoonbeam, for that info. about David Austin's more compact: Ambridge, Tamora, and Charlotte. I wish I had bought Ambridge instead of spreading Scepter'd Isle. Cantigny rose park uses fertilizer high in phosphorus, but it doesn't work, Austins still grow tall octopus canes, with a few blooms at ends. I asked my husband to get "Sulphate of Potash" for my Austins. He called from the nusery and said, "They have pot-ash". I don't want "pot-ash", or "pot-ass" in my garden, so I told him don' get it. When he came home, I realized that he mispronounced potash. I'll try that next year, since my soil is deficient in potassium.

Another "newbie" joins the Forum...

Hello Everyone! I'm new to OGR's and confused as to the best way to prune them. I bought three banded plants this Spring; Baron G, Le Reine and Madame Isaac. My "vision" for them was that they would be nice rounded shrubs. My "reality" is that Le Reine is already 3 x 3 and Madame Isaac is pushing 6 x 3. Normally I don't prune my roses their first Spring, but if this is their "sleep" year, I'm a little concerned about what their "Creep" and Leap" years are going to bring. How do you recommend that I prune these three roses for their first year?

Thanks,
Kerry

Hi Kerry: This is from American Rose Society:

"All of your once-blooming Old Garden Roses (OGRs) and ramblers should have been pruned during the summer. For example,Marchesa Boccella (1842 Hybrid Perpetual) can be hard pruned,while others,like Chinas and Teas,tolerate only minimal pruning. A safe bet is to prune each rose cane back 1/3 of its length ... Also,try to avoid pruning any OGRs in the first two years. Let them get established first."

The above is right, I made a mistake of pruning Marchesa Bocella too hard the first year, and it gave me only one bloom for the entire year.

Here is a link that might be useful: American Rose Society on Old Garden Roses

Well, the american rose society doesn't know OGRs. I prune all my roses between Christmas and early spring, even the once-bloomers and they bloom abundantly.

I'm glad that I came back to my post to report that the ARS link above is confusing and contradictory. Lori_elf is right, experience rules over what ARS dictates. My Marchesa Bocella was a tiny band this summer. When I dug it up, the roots shrank in my alkaline clay, so my pruning wasn't the problem. The only statement that makes sense from the ARS' link is: "Avoid pruning Old Garden Roses the first two years, let them get established first." Some OGRs' once-bloomers bloom on old wood, and Marchesa Bocella blooms on both old wood and new wood.

The above statement of "Avoid pruning ... let them get established" applies to wimpy own-roots as well, I don't prune mini-roses and Hybrid teas, both are wimpy as own-roots in my cold zone 5a. If I prune them too hard, they become appetizers for bunnies. However, I'm ruthless in pruning aggressive octopusy Austins like Evelyn, which throw 3 feet canes as a 2-months old baby.
This link for Southern CA mild coastal climates make it much clearer than ARS's link: "Gallica, Damask, Alba, Centifolia, and Moss roses are OGRs that only bloom in spring. Prune these right after they finish blooming; this is usually sometime in early summer. The Damask roses in particular resent hard pruning, so it is best to lightly prune flowering shoots back a few inches.

Repeat-blooming OGRs like: Portland, Bourbon, Hybrid Perpetual, Perpetual Damask, and Perpetual Moss roses are pruned at the same time as modern roses (January to February). Treat these roses as you would Hybrid Teas. Strong growing Hybrid Perpetual, roses require hard pruning to promote flowering, so plan to remove at least one half of last year's growth to produce better flowers.

Tea and China roses produce flowers on small twiggy growth and should only be lightly pruned ... We have found they respond badly to a winter pruning. We have found that pruning Tea and China roses in the hot part of summer produces quick regrowth and they don't sit around moping for years as they tend to do if you prune them in the cold part of the year...

A common complaint directed at the once-flowering Gallica roses is that they often produce very few flowers in our mild coastal regions. Gallica roses in particular require winter chilling to flower; often our mild winters are just not cold enough to produce flowers. " See the link below for Mild Coastal Southern CA tips on OGR's.

Here is a link that might be useful: Huntington Botanical Garden on pruning OGRs'

It isn't the 'alkaline clay'. Here, Marchesa Bochella is capable of eating small children after a year or two. The pruning is also unlikely to be the culprit since a neighboring historic site has a formally clipped hedge of MB dating from the 1930's. It is possible that it was a wimpy clone. Those definitely exist. (I don't have one. It ate a small child once.)

You are right, mad_gallica, that's why I chopped my 1st year Marchesa Bochella down, it was tall and messy. It's listed in HMF as Damask Perpetual, Hybrid Perpetual, and Portland. Thank you, I no longer feel guilty about pruning it ... most likely I didn't give it enough time and water for its roots to be established.

Back to Kerry's question of her 3 band-size OGRs' Baron G, La Reine, and Madame Isaac which get too big in her zone 6. When to prune? La Reine is a Hybrid Perpetual, best pruned in early spring. Madame Isaac is a Bourbon, that I don't know. Here's a caution from a previous poster:

Posted by jeff_zephyr (My Page) on Mon, Apr 20, 09 at 9:46

Thanks! Below are the ones I'm talking about. Last year, I pruned them like I would do my HT's; I cut them down to about a foot and got rid of all criss-crossing branches. They really did not like it, especially because I did it in April.
Archiduchesse Elizabeth d'Autriche
Coupe d'Hebe
Deuil de Dr. Reynaud
Dr. Bri�re
Louise Odier
Maggie
Mme. Ernest Calvat
Mrs. Yamada
Souvenir de la Malmaison
Zephirine Drouhin
Variegata di Bologna
Zemlinski's Summit Bourbon
Prince Charles

****** The best answer I found was from Olga regarding Bourbons:

Posted by olga_6b (My Page) on Tue, Apr 21, 09 at 20:15

I actually have several long cane bourbons MIP, Deuil de Dr Reynaud, Mme d'Enfert, etc. I grow them as bushes, not climbers. I prune them all to approx 5-6 feet tall canes each spring. This means taking probably 1/2 or more of the canes length. I also remove all canes that are older then 2 year old. Canes of long bourbons have short productive life. If you don't prune them out, the flower production decline in my experience. They love my treatment and reward me with hundreds of blooms each spring and repeat well too. They are all monsters and w/o prunning would take my whole yard."

**** Olga also posted her Madame Isaac picture with tons of blooms, the best I have seen ******

Thanks everyone for the information! I'll see how much winter damange they have in the Spring and take it from here.

Thanks again,
K