Sales at collector nurseries can be amazingly minimal, even when they ship their plants elsewhere (regional markets are seldom adequate to support such places). The common stuff is where the money is, if you can't stay afloat it doesn't matter how much a certain segment of the market may value what you do. Unless maybe you find a rich patron. Don't think that happens too often.

I went to a rose show at a rose powwow near here once. Great big room full of hybrid teas etc., with a couple little tables of old garden roses.

I will hope, luanne, that you are wrong. That Greg was tired. That you had, perhaps, a bad connection. And that Vintage will endure.

But in case you are not wrong i will abandon my plan to order carefully and with restraint and all my roses will come from Vintage this year. And if there wasn't a wide wet ocean in the way i'd be there on Dirt Day too. It's the best plan i can think of.

Bad news. Thanks for informing us, Luanne (seriously). The idea of a foundation sounds worth looking into: the collection is too important to be allowed to vanish.

Melissa

Well. I have an acre they could put the cold hardy part of the collection in, if somebody has money for dirt and a backhoe. I would do my best to keep it watered. it's just sitting there empty.
I suggest they get more pictures up on their website. You, Luanne are a superb photographer. Half the selections have no pictures.
Perhaps people could buy up bands and grow them on and sell them locally. We could be his retail outlet. I found an old catalogue from 2000 and realized the antique rose growers are still selling for the same prices they got then. The local nurseries are selling anything in a pot for $15.
Antique roses continue to be a mystique that nobody knows anything about. While the people who grow them are necessary, more needs to be done to educate the public, so they began to ask for them at the local nurseries. I wrote an article about Harison's Yellow once. Now the local nursery carries Harison's Yellow.
I'm self-employed myself .They are not making this up about the bad economy. Last year it slumped to half, at my business.
The thing to do is to look at all you've accomplished, and fight to keep it. it's not just the money. it's who you are, and what you stand for.

This is such bad news for everyone who loves old roses. I must admit I'd never ordered from them before but in an effort to show support, I ordered roses this morning.

I wish I could do more. Luanne, thanks for letting us know about this so we can provide whatever support possible. I wonder how the other companies are doing?

Thanks everybody. I just got an e-mail from Gregg this morning and he is very touched by all your love and support.He is giving it his best to stay open and God knows it's worth a try. Perhaps we can achieve something wonderful here.
la

I didn't even wait till the new roses are released. I'd been dragging my heels on an order of Barbier gallons -- this morning seemed like the perfect time to bring them to my garden. Hmmm . . . I wonder if there's room on the Barbier fence to hold these new ones?

Connie

P.S. I know you're curious. I ordered Francois Foucard, Rene Andre, Elisa Robichon, and Edmond Proust.

Ouch!!! Much of what I have came from Vintage. They have made a good living off me, and I have some nice plants from them. I hope that somehow a miracle can happen here. This news is not what I would like to hear. I wonder if worse comes to worse if Heirloom or Rogue Valley roses in Oregon would be able to help.

I have to say again, this is sickening. The news is sinking in. I hope for a miracle too.

Carla

this is very sad news, but i will continue to hope for the best.

i lost many unusual roses this year due to an unfortunate series of events; vintage is the only nursery that carries most of them.

i am sure my slow effort at replacing these treasures will be of little benefit to vintage, but every little bit helps.

my gardens will not be the same without vintage, i will continue to hope and to order.

christie

I need to move the fence line out twenty feet on both sides. Trouble is that is the middle of the next door neighbors houses. I suspect that most of the nurseries are in the same predicament.

Lance

I am having trouble imagining an old rose world without Vintage in it.

This is not to discredit the many other excellent old rose nurseries that exist. I have bought fine roses from many of them. It is just that Vintage is the foundation of my collection.

Rosefolly

I have never ordered from Vintage, but have perused their website many times. I ordered their catalog that I've heard so much about if, Heaven forbid, there aren't more coming in the future. I've been close to ordering many times, but the shipping is so much. Have they explored cheaper shipping methods? I would certainly donate some money to a foundation.

I too certainly don't hope they close, but if they do, could the Vintage-only roses be started at Ashdown's rosarium?

Eric

I am having trouble imagining an old rose world without Vintage in it.

*** I'm old enough to remember an Old Rose world without Vintage in it.
You won't like it.
You won't like it AT ALL.

THIS is why I kept saying that I don't share cuttings of things people
can easily order from Vintage, or Ashdown, or Rogue Valley, or or or.
Stuff no one sells? Yeah. I'll share that.
Stuff you can buy from Vintage, BUY IT.

I went to a rose society meeting last night, and told people to order.
Order NOW.

Jeri

Most of my roses have come from Vintage, and I have a truly unique garden because of it.
I've already placed my fall order, but if they update their list then I'll put in another order for the spring.
Lord knows there are a lot of roses that are 'Custom Root' only on their website that I really really really want.
But I've already got everything that I want that they have available!
I don't know what I would do if they went out of business. I'd just about have to just learn to love what I've got. There is no other vendor with the large selection of tea roses.
I truly wish that I had enough pull in my city to put in a big huge order of tea roses for a public garden. Kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Help out Vintage AND show everybody around here how easy, beautiful, and fragrant that roses can be if you just know which kinds to order.

There's a shift in rose gardening and Vintage may be a casualty. I cherish my old catalog and have read it countless times, especially in the winter when the January wind is howling outside. I have a few Vintage roses that I have overwintered here in zone 4 for many years.

I am sad like the rest of you, but I'm also glad to have been a Vintage customer. And I'll pass along a thank you to Gregg for his efforts to promote and rescue the unusual rose in the most poetic of ways.

In addition to their breathtaking collection Vintage actually ships to my location and at a very reasonable rate. I was looking forward to years of sampling their roses.

I suggest they get more pictures up on their website.
Great idea, pictures sell product and this group has the best shots.

What about t-shirts sales? Better profit margin that roses ;) i'd buy a Vintage Gardens designed t-shirt (short sleeved, v-neck, in green maybe or rose pink). And Christmas is coming.

My 6 bands are on the way from Vintage as we speak. I don't have a spot of room, but I'll figure that out in the spring.

This is so sad. They truly have a priceless collection.

I wish that Greg would put together his definitive book on his collection - with Luann(e?) supplying the photos -- and indeed teeshirts and other geega's, if they would help put $$ in the cash register.

That's the trouble with a labor of love - I imagine the profit margin on an excellent year is minimal. Agreed, there are some mighty deep pockets in their area -- at the least I would hope that some local media coverage of the collection and uniqueness of Vintage - might spur our friend at Apple, or perhaps Google land, etc to maybe have a talk to Vintage.

Very disturbing news - I sure hope things work out. To lose Vintage would be to lose a hell of a lot more than a "local nursery business".

My .02 from Austin.

Patty

Well just dang it all to heck! First we loose Uncommon, then Ralph passes away and with him his nursery, and now it looks like Vintage is on its way out. Vintage is the BEST place to find rare and unusual own root roses. Their collection of Virus Indexed Roses is truly one-of-a-kind. And I've yet to find an online vendor that offers more Old Garden Roses. For example, where else am I gonna find Eclair? For those who don't know it is a dark red Hybrid Perpetual with a medium upright growth habit (a rarity among a class of roses known for their lanky canes). The color is supposed to be a true dark red and flower form is quartered. Peter Beales raves about it in his book PASSION FOR ROSES.

For you newbies just take a look at their phenomenal online catalog at http://www.vintagegardens.com/rose_index.aspx. It is an incredible resource. I like it better than HelpMeFind Roses because of the growth habit descriptions.

Several years ago I stopped ordering from large scale nurseries altogether for the sole reason that I want to support the independently owned nurseries like Vintage. And each time one closes it feels like a punch to the gut.

It will be a dark day indeed for American rosarians if Vintage closes its online door.

I really think it is time for the American Rose Society to stand up, speak up, and publish in their magazines some articles about the rose business as it is right now, in trouble, and maybe some possible, at least partial, solutions. Put in the magazines helps for growing the band plants. We have lost a number of suppliers in the past few years. We cannot afford to lose Vintage Gardens. It would be a catastrophe. They are too valuable. ALL our suppliers are valuable. Even J&P has had too much upheaval. Losing them would be bad. How many people have been enriched by varieties like Signature, Veterans Honor, and French Lace? Maybe rose societies could sell Vintage's plants at the rose shows and use some also as trophies. Many people may not know about Vintage. I also believe that the rose shows should be run a little differently so that there are places for all types of hybrid teas, not just Moonstone and the like, as pretty as they are. I might be on my soapbox, but this is serious.

This is such a very sad thread.

One note: many Virus Indexed roses continue to be available to anyone from the UCDavis collection. Others originated, cleaned up from the Lab of Dr. Malcolm Manners in Florida who makes an effort to share his improved versions. Other folks, like Ron Johnson at Appalachian Roses near Tellico Plains TN, find healthier clones and pay to have them tested at AgDia. Vintage may have some that are theirs alone; I do appreciate that the sources of their roses are given in their catalogs.

There's a non-rose nursery in Oregon that I discovered after it had stopped being a nursery; earlier this week, I googled them to see if anything was new and one of the owners had announced that she was back to growing after a much needed rest. She wasn't ready to ship yet, but hoped that that would come again with time.

About big rose growers: have you heard of the Garden Rose Council? Probably not. To be a member, you don't have to grow Garden Roses, you just have to produce some huge number of plants each year (the number might be a quarter of a million rose plants.) They have meetings, they award grants for studies of rose problems and you might guess that the problems that get studied are their own problems. Which may be as it should be.
That doesn't get more people to grow roses right for their garden soils and climate zones.
And the wrong rose takes a lot more effort to keep going.

I have no answers. With Rose Rosette in my neighborhood, I am just trying to keep my own odd collection of roses going through its third year of extreme drought and eighth year of RRD pressure.

Bummer.

luanne, I added to my order from Vintage in the comments section: "Everyone on the Antique Roses Forum on Garden Web is hoping your business can remain open!"

Whatever happens, I know it will be a difficult decision for Gregg and if nothing else we can let him know he is not alone. Working 7 days a week and worrying about business and the larger economic problems has him thinking he is alone with his problems. At least that's the way large problems effect me.

Again, thanks luanne for your kindness and keeping in touch with him during these difficult times. You are a sweetheart.

First we loose Uncommon, then Ralph passes away and with him his nursery

*** Uhhh ... I understand the sentiment.
However, Mr. Moore, tho increasingly fragile, is by no means deceased.
The nursery is closed.
The gentleman, however, lives on.

Jeri

All my best roses have come from Vintage and I'd love to grow more, but I'm out of space. I have a pot ghetto that is shameful.

When I visited Vintage several years ago I bought a beautiful pink Vintage gardens T-shirt and it is in tatters now - I'd love to order more - especially in "Radiance" pink!

I am scheduled to give a talk about Old Garden Roses at my rose society's next meeting in October. Guess whose nursery I will shamelessly plug? In fact, I think I will be re-writing my entire program with more emphasis on what it takes to preserve the treasures small nurseries like Vintage hold. I'll try my best to spread the word.

At the same time, I know I haven't ordered enough from them in the past to make a difference in their bottom line - but like so many here have said I, too, am at the end of my capacity. It's been fun to research an out-of-the-ordinary rose and add it to my collection, like a jewel. I fully intended to cull a few of the under-performers and order replacements this spring. But those kinds of buying habits won't keep their doors open. This crumbling economy is taking its toll in so many ways - I am so sad to hear that Vintage hangs in the balance. First having to deal with Great Lakes Roses closing this fall where they tried and tried to find a buyer for the nursery before they retired but no one stepped up...and now this very, very sad news.

Interest in roses generally has been said to be declining due to them being seen as too much bother to grow. And income distribution in this country is now as uneven as it was in 1928, the year before the stock market crash of 1929 and the start of the Great Depression.

Even in earlier recessionary economies, "niche" businesses have been lost.
THIS economic disaster far outshadows those events. It's like nothing I've
ever lived through, or wanted to.

We've lost so many good nurseries, and every one of them has been a tragedy.
But THIS is just The Worst.

Anything any of us can do to delay or forestall this -- we must.

Jeri

Bravo Annececilia!

What Vintage really needs are new audiences with empty gardens. Posting here is merely preaching to the choir. The few extra roses i order this year might make a difference but what about next year? And now i am feeling guilty that i would not support Heirloom, my second favorite vendor, who must also be feeling the same pressures.

Time for some serious off-forum enabling.

I don't know how much help it would be, but I wish that nurseries that specialized in heritage plants could be run as some sort of non-profit foundations with an educational purpose -- maybe in conjunction with arboretums and universities. Perhaps they all ready are and I just don't know about it. There ought to be a way such places could receive recognition and awards for the service they are providing to the world's cultural and horticultural patrimony.

This is something that is very difficult for me to talk about. Gregg is one of my very dearest friends. Vintage had been a magical word and concept to Michael and I for years. Knowing Gregg as I do I can tell you that he was always in this bussiness with the highest ideals. It has really been more like a gift to the rose world and a tribute to the flower he loves so much. We can do all we can but I'm afraid that we are all little fish in a big troubled sea as is Vintage.

My first thought was why did this have to happen in an election year, when many are sending their extra pennies to candidates. of their choice.

I will have to see what I can do. My personal budget is so tiny as to be invisible, but I am not interested in sometime in the future buying the rare beauties I covet from whatever nursery might be waiting in the wings to buy up Vintage's inventory. Any nursery willing to step up and help NOW can be assured of, I believe, the continued loyalty of many of us here. I wish I had known last summer, when the sales were on and I kept telling myself, Not this year, I really can't do this.

A few random thoughts for whatever they might be worth.

Publicity, not about the possibility of closing, but about what a wonderful, world-renowned resource exists RIGHT HERE in (CA, the Bay Area, West Coast) Have the Bay Area papers, West Coast garden magazines, etc, ever done a feature article on Vintage Gardens? Not that I know of. A fantastic new mag called Heirloom Gardening publishes lots of offbeat articles on gardening topics. A recent issue had an article about Empress Josephine and Malmaison. Possibly an article about rare roses, in which Vintage is prominently mentioned as the best source? Does anyone here happen to be a free-lance writer?

Any chance Vintage could reorganize itself as a non-profit, supporting SJ Heritage Rose Garden?

In normal circumstances, I really hate the idea of businesses selling customer lists, but if that were what Greg had to do, I can always throw away the junk mail.

Sales stragegy: Calling for a retired person with time, independent means and good marketing skills. I know we all love being able to buy any rose our lustful hearts desire for $12.50 plus shipping, but, really, I have seen Talisman go on Ebay for more than twice that. Our own mgleason has demonstrated that there is a market of buyers, who, I presume, haven't heard of Vintage, for rare HTs.

and, offbeat selling venues AKA pissing in the soup AKA you gots to do what you gots to do. For example, take a selection of Dot roses to a Cinco de Mayo street fair, advertised as Rosas de Espana, hecho por el senor Pedro Dot
etc, etc, signage to include copy in which phrases like muy famoso and por todo el mundo appear prominently.

Does anyone on this forum know how to go about nominating someone for a MacArthur Foundation Genius Grant? Maybe a letter from one or two Well Known Highly Respected persons, seconded by all the rest of us?

I believe that the long-term prognosis for companies like Vintage is quite good. As the present financial house of cards crumbles around us, I believe customers and investors will be looking for companies which offer valuable products and are managed in an honest way. I rather think that we all are going to be swearing off the excitement of smoke and mirrors, and maybe even the false promises of the mass consumer society (if you just fill your yard with 10 plants of Puce Flower Carpet, you too can be respected and admired by your neighbors). I would not read tooo much into some of the recent closings. Sequoia came to a natural end with Mr. Moore's advancing age, at UR, I believe the owner had other fish to fry, and as for B&B, nice people I am sure, but it never seemed to me they were really very interested in selling their wonderful discoveries. And, as for another formerly well known rose mursery in Northern CA, which closed a few years back, I visited once , and was frankly appalled at what I saw there. Tables and tables of pots of unhealthy looking plants, not a sales person or gardener in sight, the tables sitting in mud puddles. There is a lot I will do to feed my addiction, but being expected to walk through mud up to my ankles is asking a bit much.

After thinking about this for the last couple of days, I have had many ideas as, it seems, do we all. So, here is another one: Vintage could form alliances with/market to landscape designers (LDs), especially those LDs involved with drought tolerant gardens. Right now the trend in California is to go with drought tolerant plants. Most people do not know that Teas and Noisettes and many other OGRs are quite drought tolerant once established. If lots of local landscape designers could be educated as to the benefits of planting OGRs over HTs, this could be a new market for Vintage. While I expect that some/much of Vintage's business comes from LDs, many more of these professionals have no clue as to how valuable OGRs can be in a garden, let alone the highly valuable and experienced advice they would receive from Gregg. Gregg could have an open house once or twice a year and invite LDs from all over the state. I know that the LD I use once in a while to do the heavy lifting in my yard had no idea what OGRs were or how drought tolerant they could be. Reaching out to the many garden related professionals might be one way to increase business. The big hurdle is that one man cannot do this by himself. Those who love Vintage could all pitch in and volunteer time, whether it be researching all the LDs in the state or phone calls or sending out a newsletter. At the very least informing the LDs we are personally acquainted with would be helpful. Anyway, just another idea to throw around. This thread has become somewhat a brainstorming session. Maybe out of all of this, one or two ideas will work for Vintage. Who knows?

This absolutely breaks my heart... I liked the Farmer's Markets suggestion. What about contacting botanic gardens, arboretums, civic rose gardens... Outposts where the general public can see (and smell) actual roses, then order...

I'm really a wreck about this. I can honestly say that VG is the reason I grow roses at all... They even spurred me to breeding my own roses...

One, he didn't say they WERE closing, he said they MIGHT have to close.

Two, let's face it -- It's hard to run such a specialist business on the for-profit model. It's amazing he's made it this long. Vintage should really be a non-profit botanical rose garden that also sells cuttings of its own plants. It needs to make itself eligible to receive funding and support from (for example) the National Science Foundation or the Nat'l Endowment for the Humanities, as well as private donations.

Only in the you're-on-your-own US would a place like Vintage even be *expected* to make it as a for-profit business -- THAT's the real outrage. You think Sangerhausen supports itself by sale of rootstock??

I once contributed a band plant of Lamarque to a themed basket for a school fundraiser. Anyone with kids in parochial or other private schools will know about the baskets. Each class is given a theme, such as home and garden, or cooking, or Granny's Attic, for their basket. Parents are asked/expected to contributed to the class basket, which is auctioned off at a fundraising event. I provided the above mentioned band, plus a description of the rose and history, and instructions for its care. The entire basket sold for the ridiculous sum of around $700.
So, for those who would like to help, but have no yard space left, roses make very acceptible raffle and auction prizes.

For anyone in CA looking for rose storage, I have a huge back yard, and not the financial means to fill it, and time to give proper care.

Of course, Vintage should be a publicly maintained botanical garden, and likely someday will be, when the present owners are no longer on the scene. Someone will no doubt "discover" this fantastic overgrown rose garden, and mount a campaign to rehabilitate and preserve it. Such is life in the USA (sigh).

They aren't out yet so I let's hope Gregg finds a way to hold on. I consider Vintage THE rose collection of the US, and it would be a terrible loss for them to close and/or break up their collection. I always wondered if there were plans for the day when the owners can't keep up the garden anymore. Perhaps the ARS could find a way to make plans for it's purchase and upkeep one day. It would be one of the best things they could do.

I ordered some new roses from Vintage last week not knowing they were having trouble. I went to their site today to see what is new and was saddened to see their message. I know that nobody runs a rose business like theirs for money, but for love. But they can't work for free. The economy is down and I doubt business will pick up to return to where it was a few years ago for them or anyone else in the nursery business. But I do hope Gregg and the folks at Vintage can find a way to downsize their operation a little to keep it profitable and hold on until things turn around. Surely it must be exhausting, but let's all make sure Vintage knows we value and appreciate them. Ordering is one way to tell them that.

If your pot ghetto is overflowing, well give away some of your least favorites to someone else to enjoy, and order a few new roses. It's about the experience, not the having. Seeing a new rose for the first time is such fun. Enjoy it for a few years and pass it on. Only my pocketbook and thin strings to sanity keep me from ordering more than I do.

For anyone who might be interested in Ca, I offer to maintain your rose at my house until such time as you wish to retrieve it, provided the rose was purchased at Vintage Gardens. I pay for water and fertilizer and I don't spray. The hazards where I live are mildew in spring, which has never killed a rosebush yet for me, and rose chafer beatles, also in spring, and extreme heat in summer, which can be deadly, but not if you water regularly. Gallicas and damasks are not good in my climate, also I understand the spinossimas don't take to heat.

It has been busy at work and I just got to see this thread. I only saw the email from Vintage yesterday.

Greg is a very smart marketer. He has done much to illuminate older roses. I'm sure that he has turned this over in his head in so many different directions.

Vintage is a labor of love. This can not be easy and my heart goes out to the entire staff who work so hard to bring beauty into our lives. I hope for the best.

Carol

A sad sttory and what a loss it would be to rose lovers. If it comes to pass I hope a few of the more secure (is there such a thing) nurseries will get to have chance to sell some of these great rare beauties!

The shipping is not that bad IMHO. I live clear across the country in Maryland and for 8 roses the shipping was $32.00. Jackson and Perkins would have charged $22.00 plus their roses are more expensive than VG, not to mention more commonplace.

I don't know how it is where you live, but the "nurseries" where I live carry nothing but Knockout and his derrivatives, so I have to mail order any roses I want.

I wonder how Roses Unlimited in SC is doing - I really like them too, and hope they are doing OK.

Ease up guys, Gregg hasn't closed yet and may not.

We should all support his nursery, buy roses for a friend, buy his rose book for a friend. Don't have any friends? Offer a stranger a band from Vintage, then you'll have a friend.

If you are angry and depressed, why not take it out on the public gardens who have lost interest in growing and displaying his roses and old garden roses in general?

Some of our most famous collections ( I can only speak for the current status of east coast collections) need a kick in the ***. They are letting the rose collections fall into the hands of the "Knockout" queens.

Write your local botanic garden president.

If you believe in Gregg, he will appreciate this support as well.

stephen

Well I would like to support them too. It is too late in the season for me and other zone 6'ers but could I order a few roses now for Spring Delivery? I would think any influx of cash would help.

We need to see this as a wake up call, not a signal to throw up our hands and despair. Vintage is still open. If enough roses are sold over the next season, it will stay open. It is alarming that this wonderful resource is at risk, but we can see it as a call to action.

We are not helpless here.

Rosefolly

Well, I have NO room to order more roses for my own garden.
On the contrary, some roses are leaving, so I can put enough water to others.

BUT our check to Friends of Guadalupe River Park & Gardens
was mailed yesterday to Leslee Hamilton, Exec. Dir. FOGRP&G
438 Coleman Ave., San Jose, CA 95110-2004

If you can do the same, write "Mel Hulse Fund" on the memo line of the check.

I've been WAITING for the right path to donate in Mel's memory, and I
can't think of a better way than this.
If you want to take this approach, DO enclose a note saying the money is for
buying roses from Vintage Gardens.

Mel would be tickled pink.

Jeri

I very much hope Vintage stays open too but I do think all the specialty rose nurseries need business. STill Vintage does have the most incredible collection.

I ordered Mme. Alfred de Rougemont. I can only afford one at a time, which means I take a hit on the shipping, but, $25. each is what the nursery up the street charges for their mediocre selections.

I do think all the specialty rose nurseries need business.

*** Boy! Is THAT ever true!
I worry about all of them. The moreso because I can remember when we
didn't have them!

Jeri

Oh how I wish I had more room--more money and a better back-----I would love to plant more roses but it is impossible at this time of my life----too many health problems.

so sad--

Florence

I now know why so many of my roses died for no good reason this summer, and why several more were uprooted and flew away during Hurricane Ike.

An order will be composed after payday.

Allison

Redsox, ordering now for Springtime delivery is an entirely viable solution. Jeri, great idea for donating to the Mel Hulse fund. We can all take into account our own skills, finances,and gardening situation and help as we can. So many great ideas have been fomented. Now we must think on what to do to implement these ideas. Some can be done immediately like buying more roses, gift certificates, helping out with the Vintage Dirt Day this next Saturday. Educating your local rose society, writing articles,inducing a chair of old roses at your local university etc. may take more time and organization. Thanks to all of you for your contributions, your love of roses, your willingness to help, your brilliant suggestions and your love.
la