I can just see it now: the donors eventually find out their $$ went to the cleaning of some middle of the road post-war Floribunda and suddenly complaints of the "I can't believe they chose that crappy variety to clean!!" begin to be heard. From there it only goes downhill until very few want to keep shelling out their $10. Most contributors will expect to get a cleaned plant in return for their $$, and as Kim pointed out, who is responsible for generating 200 plants and shipping them to the donors?? Don't get me wrong, its a nice idea, but I've heard it suggested many times before and it never passed the concept stage; its impractical on many levels.

Kim,

Many of the people on this forum have expressed an interest in unvirused roses and a willigness to contribute to that end. As to the selection of cultivars; either a rotation through the various species or an alternation between cold hardy and cold intolerant roses may be viable approaches.

The breeding out of unhealthy characteristics in dogs was done, I believe, by the breeders and by the purebred standards for that breed. As you say, roses are different and so a different approach may be required.

However, with it becoming all but impossible to import roses from other countries, it looks like our only route to unvirused roses is the treatments offered by USC Davis and Malcom Manner's University. It is true that the rose nursery industry created the problem, perhaps unwittingly, but I doubt that they have the resources by themselves to rid all affected roses of the virus. Better to work toward eradication of the RMV, even if the end is not in sight, than to give up.

If Help Me Find does not have the resources to administer a donation program, maybe one the universities does.

Cath

Cath, please find a university with the resources and interest in accomplishing this. Unless it is a self supporting project, or someone with a million-plus dollars to fund a department chair to support it, university support isn't happening. It has been the "edibles" industry keeping it alive that made working with roses viable. Anyone have any contacts with Bill Gates or anyone else with more money than they know what to do with, who may want to fund such a project?

I'm not convinced roses from outside the US are actually going to be "virus free". They MAY not contain RMV, but what about the other viruses which have been discovered and for which no treatments have been created? How many other viruses have they now discovered? Perhaps, we need to redefine "virus free" to mean, "potentially lacking RMV"? It is highly likely RMV was introduced into commercial roses by the US, but what about all the others? Don't forget the various viral problems which naturally exist over seas. They have their own sets of similar problems. Kim

Maybe it would be a better idea if some one like Cath contacted Davis and Cal-Poly SLO and see if a fund could be established for Davis cleaning the rose and SLO growing it. (Cal Poly San Luis Obispo is an ag tech University. The students do grow and sell poinsettia for Christmas, maybe there would be interest in selling a SLO rose too)

Kim Noted:
"I'm not convinced roses from outside the US are actually going to be "virus free".

*** FWIW, our two plants of 'Prospero' came from Hortico, years and YEARS ago.
Presumably, the budwood went to Hortico from Austin.
They're a real asset to the garden, forming a short entry-way hedge, and they are pretty much ever-blooming.

Yesterday, I ran across a leaf with typical signs of RMV.
So, there you are . . .

Jeri

You'd think it should have come from Austin, Jeri. However, I have known of "Harry" from Hortico hitting up regular customers of his to obtain wood from new roses to their gardens. He used to contact our mutual friend in Torrance to find out what was new in her garden and ask her for bud wood regularly. They had no idea where any of it came from, just that they obtained it from customers. Even if they did, who knows where the stock they put it on came from? Remember all the early Austins in the Aptos, CA mutual friend's garden with Bride's Dream suckers growing out of them? A real "Island of Dr, Moreau" operation! Kim

Good point, Kim. But consider -- at that point in time, where did our friend in Torrance get them?

As far as obtaining them from customers, that's how Antique Rose Emporium got their Sombreuil -- from a lady in TX who had gotten it from . . . Any bets on ROY&T? I ran across that when I was looking like mad for anyone who had actually obtained "Colonial White" from Melvin Wyant. (Never did find one, btw.)

So -- You're right.
The stuff goes 'round and 'round.

Jeri

Yes ma'am, that it has! The only person I've ever encountered who actually obtained roses from Wyant was Ernest Vash (Historical Roses) in Ohio and that was nearly thirty years ago. I honestly doubt there are many (if any) people still around who did business with Wyant.

She gathered English roses from any and everywhere they were offered. It was primarily because of the tonnage she bought from Hortico that Harry began scavenging them from her. Kim

kippy. I know my Golden Celebrations are virused, because I know where they came from, and that they were budded on virused Huey.

I knew my ROYT Sombreuil and Reine de Violettes were virused, for the same reason. It took 20 years for it to show itself in RdV, and 23 years for Sombreuil. Just because I couldn't see it, didn't mean it wasn't there. :-)

Jeri

Jeri, those two are great examples of how a lack of symptoms doesn't indicate lack of disease activity. Those were two of the earliest varieties we heat-treated, and the growth and productivity of the cleaned-up plants was dramatically improved and remains so, nearly 30 years later. ROYT was the original source of that material. They're both great roses. Unfortunately, we never worked on Golden Celebration.

Thanks Jeri!

I was just wondering what the others signs would be if the leaves where not obvious (like the obvious white rose we have) I wish our golden celebration was as nice of a plant as yours.

Kippy -- nothing obvious or easily quantified without a direct comparison, but generally, weaker growth, smaller flowers, fewer flowers, shorter stems, less cold-hardy (perhaps less heat-hardy), shorter life. Some varieties are far more affected than others, even with the same strain of virus.

Thanks Malcolm.

We have a bareroot (Costco) Golden Celebration that was planted 5 years ago and just moved this year. It has not gotten treated too well, but it also has done next to nothing. We got a few early small roses, the leaves are a nice shade of green, but it just sits. I hear it needs time and the skunks seem to love that part of the yard so maybe they are bothering it. But still!

Malcolm, I would really love to have "cleaned" examples of RdV and Sombreuil. I really didn't realize those two had been done -- though I should have guessed.

I wonder if VI clones are available anywhere, now?

(I don't suppose you'd like to pack a few plants of one or both in with your clean undies, when you come to CA in Feb., for GROW?)

FWIW, I think there's an even chance that our original Golden Celebration may be virus-free. There's a real difference between it, and the plants on Huey.

If it were legal to propagate, I'd get Clay to make some plants from that one, and see what they would do.

In any case -- when people tell me that they know a plant is not virused because they've seen no sign on the leaves . . . I laugh. Because I KNOW better.

Jeri

I don't understand why there is this great revulsion to having an RMV infected plant in one's garden. The occasional lightning bolt patterning on the leaves is far less ugly to look at than the rampant black spot that ravages my leaves on a regular basis. It rarely, if ever, causes the leaves to drop and on the whole is much easier to contend with than any of the other diseases and/or pests that plague roses. And as I've stated again and again, it is NOT an automatic death sentence for any rose, even in cold climates. If there is a rose you LOVE and you can not find it indexed or clean (and I do appreciate all the efforts to do those things), buy it and ENJOY it!

All true, seil. But if you CAN find a clean one, they tend to be overall better plants.

Seil stated: "I don't understand why there is this great revulsion to having an RMV infected plant in one's garden."

Seil, you have not answered my earlier question:

"seil z6b MI, how many roses have you and your mother purchased that only survived 4-5 years?"
------------------------------------

Of course not all of them probably died because they were weakened by a virus infection, but article after article warns about this posibility. Please note the use of the word "possibility", there are weak virus strains and there are roses with stronger than normal immune systems which would result in infected roses with those characteristics surviving your climate.

Please note what Malcolm Manners stated: "Kippy -- nothing obvious or easily quantified without a direct comparison, but generally, weaker growth, smaller flowers, fewer flowers, shorter stems, less cold-hardy (perhaps less heat-hardy), shorter life. Some varieties are far more affected than others, even with the same strain of virus."
-------------------------
I suggest that you revise your statement:

"And as I've stated again and again, it is NOT an automatic death sentence for any rose, even in cold climates."
to
"And, it is NOT an automatic death sentence for "SOME" roses with "SOME" strains of "SOME" of the viruses that make up the group that are called RMV, even in cold climates."

--------------------------------

And there is another complication. There is a "school of thought" that the real problems are much more common when the rose is infected with 2 or more viruses.

"When you get severe virus symptoms more than one virus is found from analysis.
Most virus strains are not obvious and little debilitating if alone. Combined they are very much deletorious."

The above quote is from a statement in the link below.

http://www.uk.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg071057108109.html

Here is a link that might be useful: link for multiple virus quote

The multiple virus quote seems to be unsupported in US roses. We've seen extremely severe symptoms by a single strain of ApMV, and we seldom find double infections. Which is not to say a double infection wouldn't cause severe symptoms; only that it is not at all necessary, and that severe infections are certainly not indicative of multiple infection.

I agree with both Seil and Malcolm. I'd rather have 'em clean. But I'll take 'em virused, if that is the only way to get 'em.

Jeri

5.5% of the infected roses studied by Wang, Horst and Langhans at Cornell in a 1983�1986 study tested positve for both PNRSV and ApMV. They indicated that they could not say for sure if this number represents a true mixed infection of the two viruses or represented the presence of intermediate serotypes or both.
----------------------
Dave Zlesak also mentions: "Some express more severe combinations in the presence of other viruses." when talking about roses viruses in general, not just the original "classic RMV four".

http://www.rosebreeders.org/forum/read.php?2,14137

He concludes with the following:
"I don't think virus is a hopeless battle. I think eventually we may need to change our mind about "virus-free". I hate that some nurseries claim this about their roses. They have "virus indexed" roses using Elisa for the few major, characterized viruses out there. I think we'll eventually accept some viruses as not too harmful and not worry too much about them, while for others there is more concern. Some viruses will be very difficult to impossible to clean up even with heat treatment and meristem culture because of their nature and how they develop and spread. For instance, there is a class of crytic virus that is seed transmitted. It is in every cell, even those in the growing point from the beginning. It would be relatively rare to find a seedling from an infected maternal parent that did not get it. There may be a rose virus that is like that. It takes time and money to make progress with these viruses and Ben is working on it out of the kindness of his heart without funding in his spare time. I should encourage him again to apply for some of the limited ARS research funds.

In the meantime I think, if possible, we should remove plants with obvious signs of infection and try to use good sanitation and pruning practices." End of Dave's quote.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cornell abstract(above quote is from the full paper)

As has been discussed ad infinitum here in this forum, for years and years, Wang et al.'s paper (now 29 years old) is at odds with ALL mosaic research ever since, and on several points was clearly flawed. Yet it keeps being brought up here as authoritative.

As for Zlesak's comments -- certainly true. HOWEVER, notice that he's talking about a cryptic [sic] virus, NOT anything causing mosaic. A cryptic virus, by definition, shows no symptoms in the host plant. Virtually all plants and certainly virtually all crops, have them. We don't worry about them because they don't cause symptoms and because there's nothing we can do about them. So as usual, mention of them in conjunction with a discussion of rose mosaic is silly, misleading, and irrelevant.

In this thread, as is usually the case in such threads, when a writer says his/her rose is "virused," they clearly mean "infected with one of the few viruses causing true rose mosaic disease." That is without question the case in this thread. So discussion of other viruses is without merit, only designed to muddy the conversational waters.

Rose is a rose is a rose. But virus is NOT a virus is NOT a virus. Caveat emptor.

Cryptic viruses are only one type of rose virus that Minnsota studied. A number of the non cryptic ones are mosaic in nature.
"IDENTIFICATION AND PARTIAL CHARACTERIZATION OF SIX NEW VIRUSES OF CULTIVATED ROSES IN THE USA
Authors: B. Lockhart, D. Zlesak, J. Fetzer
Abstract:
During 2004-2007 six previously undescribed or uncharacterized viruses were identified in cultivated roses in the USA in the states of Minnesota, New York, Michigan and Oregon. These viruses have been assigned provisional names because their respective roles in the etiology of the diseases with which they are associated is undetermined and still under investigation. These six viruses are Rose yellow mosaic virus, Rose transient mosaic virus, Rosa rugosa leaf distortion virus, Rose yellow leaf virus, Rose necrotic mosaic virus and Rose chlorotic ringspot virus. These six viruses were first detected by transmission electron microscopy using partially-purified extracts of symptomatic rose leaf tissue. Subsequent testing based on virion properties and nucleotide and/or amino acid sequence analysis of viral genomic sequences led to the conclusion that none of these six viruses had been reported or described previously."

http://www.actahort.org/books/901/901_18.htm
H. Kuska comment: please notice "extracts of symptomatic rose leaf tissue".
------------------------------------
A gardner sees a rose with mosaic symptoms, he/she does not have the means to determine which virus caused the symptoms. That is why the catch all term RMV was developed.
-----------------------------------

The following statement was made: "Wang et al.'s paper (now 29 years old) is at odds with ALL mosaic research ever since,..."
H.Kuska comment: if you feel that way, please produce the documentation.
The Cornell paper has been cited 9 times. One of the citations is by Davis who report regarding the enhanced problems with mixed infections: "The diameters of the cuttings from one virus treatment consisting of a mixed infection of ApMV + PNRSV were significantly smaller than healthy, but not in the other two virus treatments."
http://www.actahort.org/books/751/751_27.htm
------------------------------
There is very little U.S. research. I feel that research from the rest of the world is useful (keeping in mind that some viruses elsewhere may not be important in the U,S,). In the case of mixed infections, a Turkey study reported:
" Mixed infections of ArMV+PNRSV, ArMV+ApMV, PNRSV+ApMV, and ArMV+PNRSV+ApMV were also detected in the rose samples tested. An infection by ArMV, PNRSV, and ApMV, either singly or in combination, is usually responsible for rose mosaic disease. However, mixed infections of PNRSV and ArMV were detected in 54 rose samples tested."
H.Kuska comment: they looked at 218 samples so 54/218 gives 24 % mixed infections.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01140671.2009.9684247

Obfuscation, misinterpretation, nonsense, and ignorance, as usual.

As for how many died over the course of a few years I really couldn't hazard a guess. Some, yes, but I actually rarely lose a rose. And since I do tend to buy inexpensive ones they're probably not the best grade to begin with. But on the other hand I have several in my garden right now that were whopping big potted plants that I paid a fortune for at reputable local nurseries that have now dwindled to one cane wonders and are about to be shovel pruned. I have no idea if those are virused or if they were just not good varieties for my garden conditions. I do tend to fall for the new intros and a lot of those are hyped all out of proportion. Once I get them in my garden I find they do not preform as advertised.

Roses, and really all garden plants, are a giant game of experimentation. What works for you and what doesn't can be a matter of just a few feet one way or the other. I'm sad when I lose a rose, for what ever reason, because I do get attached to them (even the dogs sometimes), but then I view it as an opportunity to try something new. In my case that's a plus because I have very limited space and there's always a new one I want anyway!

Seil, you are always so disgustingly logical. :-)

I might add words of wisdom someone gifted me with years ago:

"Sometimes, plants die. It's not necessarily anything you DID. It's not your fault. It just died. Replace it, and move on." :-)

Jeri

Jeri said, "Sometimes, plants die. It's not necessarily anything you DID. It's not your fault. It just died. Replace it, and move on."

Amen! While you're cutting your teeth growing things, definitely diagnose and explore why something failed, but once you have your footing and pretty much know what to expect from your climate and efforts, when they don't work and it is pretty obvious you did it all as well as could be expected, chalk it up to the blamed thing just didn't LIKE you and move on. Second guessing yourself once your efforts and skill are solid is counter productive. Kim

Thanks, Jeri, I try to be reasonable about things. There are far too many hot heads and hysterical chicken littles out there already.

I agree, Kim. Some plants just don't work out for what ever reason...or no reason at all. In most cases I'll give something I really like a second chance. But if the second one croaks too then I don't bother to try again. What ever it is, it isn't for me. There are so many choices in roses and garden plants that I'd love to have that it isn't worth my effort to keep beating a dead horse. I just go pick out something new!

You are SO RIGHT!

Jeri

A common comment that one hears concerning why someone does not grow roses is "I can't grow roses." The link below is a Google search for those exact words. Since I utilised quotes, the search will miss posts that essentially say the same thing but use different words.

In northern gardens I feel that one of the common contributions to the difficulty in growing roses is that virused roses were purchased.

I feel that gardners in hot climates are doing a diservice to novice northern gardeners when they make blanket statements such as: "RMV viruses are not a big deal - I have grown XXX,YYY,ZZZ, etc., all RMV virused, for many years. They are fine".

When a novice comes to this forum for help on virus related issues, I expect that he/she will be able to leave understanding that:

1) There are more than one virus that can give mosaic symptoms.

2) There can be mild and strong strains of mosaic forming viruses.

3) Roses can differ in the ability of their immune system to fight mosaic virus infection(s).

4) The immune system can have a temperature dependence. Higher temperature - often the better able to fight the infection.
--------------------------
I use words like "can" and "often" because different rose mosaic viruses may have different characteristics.

Here is a link that might be useful: Google search

Personally, I think when some one says they can't grow roses, it has little to do with virus issues.

It has to do with lack of research and gardening education.

People who chip a hole in the shade the size of a 1g pot and dump a new rose in and wonder why it died.

Or ones that drown them or forget to water all summer

or buy the cheap body bags and plant wrong for their climates.

Or that prune with a weed wacker (as in to the ground)

Or just want that instant pop of color that a bunch of .99 pony packs offer for a week or two.

Lots of reasons that have nothing to do with the plant and everything to do with the plantee.

In northern gardens I feel that one of the common contributions to the difficulty in growing roses is that the roses the industry supplies to these gardeners are completely inappropriate for the climate, and the odds of their surviving even one winter in these climates is slim. It has very little, if anything, to do with viruses.

I agree, it's more about the climate. The garden catalogs and chain nurseries have been pushing things based on hybrid teas and floribundas, which are ok for people who don't experience negative degrees Farenheit. Average people in zones 6 and lower who just want "something pretty for the yard" buy their plants based on the pictures of the flowers, and then when they die, come off thinking roses are too difficult. It's really about there being so many choices possible being limited by a small number of producers who supply the majority of the market. Most of the roses discussed on this forum (antiques) require investigation and searching -- something most people simply don't do. And then they miss out on things that could work for them simply because they're not sold at Home Depot.

I'm a Zone 5 Northern Gardener, with over 300 roses. I grow mostly HTs, shrubs, and floribundas. I hear the same comment about 'I can't grow roses' also when people visit my gardens. It's gotten down to -22F here for a stretch of 3 days in January but I seldom lose a rose. It's WHEN and HOW you plant the rose that is key to getting that rose off to a good start in life. Most of the planting instructions I've seen on a grafted rose advise planting that rose way up in the air...guaranteed winter death here in Illinois.

I have an obviously virused 25-year old 'Redgold' that is one of the most vigorous in the garden, but it pumps out the most blooms of any of my roses. It hasn't declined in vigor or health, but the RMV is there. I don't discard roses just because I see RMV, and I don't believe it's an automatic death sentence. RRD, on the other hand, is a scourge and is a million times more serious.

The following was stated: "I have an obviously virused 25-year old 'Redgold' that is one of the most vigorous in the garden, but it pumps out the most blooms of any of my roses. It hasn't declined in vigor or health, but the RMV is there. I don't discard roses just because I see RMV, and I don't believe it's an automatic death sentence."
-----------------------------------
H.Kuska comment: please reread points 2 and 3.
Also, the reason for discarding a virused rose is not because it may die but to guarantee that the virus will not spread to those of your other roses which may not have as effective an immune system as your potential typhoid Mary or to nearby agriculturally important plants.

If you are one of those who still believe that mosaic type viruses are not natural to roses and that it has been proven that there is no above ground spread in northern climates, please read The Agriculture and Natural Resources, University of California link (on rose viruses) given below that has gone through at least one revision and the warning about spread by pruners below is still there.

"In the meantime, you need to remember that viruses can be transmitted by pruning and cutting shears. Virus-infected plants should be pruned last and/or have their flowers harvested last. To be extra cautious, wipe your cutting shears with alcohol (rubbing alcohol is good) or a 10 percent bleach solution between plants."

---------------------------------
Is the pruning and cutting shears warning relevant to PNRSV in roses?

There used to be a statement: "But the viruses which cause rose mosaic are quite fragile. Much like HIV in humans, they die almost the instant they leave the host plant." Possibly this statement may be correct in very hot climates, but recent research from Poland reported that the room temperature stability of three different PNRSV isolates from 3 different roses were 6 hours, 10 hours, and 10 hours. http://www.springerlink.com/content/j80nm40g5g3l1008/fulltext.pdf?MUD=MP
----------------------------------

My web link on possible above ground spread is at: http://home.roadrunner.com/~kuska/info_about_virus.htm

Here is a link that might be useful: Agriculture and Natural Resources, University of California

'Used to be' and 'possible above-ground spread'...?

Like I said, I'm more worried about the RRD scourge than RMV. THAT is life-threatening.

Henry, once again you are putting words into the mouth of your link. The information there was regarding viruses in general, and did not say that RMV can spread via pruning. RMV is one kind of virus. Rose rosette is another. If I am to write a short bit of information regarding rose viruses as a group, I must include characteristics of ALL viruses. But that does not mean that this collection of characteristics is found in EACH type of virus.

Here's an example of what you're doing: let's say I have to write a little blurb about dangers that pets can bring to pregnant women. "Pets" can include dogs, cats, birds, fish, reptiles. Many species of reptiles carry Salmonella as a part of their intestinal flora, and this presents a danger to pregnant women. Cat (and occasionally dog) feces can contain Toxoplasma gondii, the organism which causes toxoplasmosis and can cause birth defects or miscarriage. Some types of Chlamydia species are present in bird feces.

In the space allotted to me, I can't go into much detail. I mention that many people today have pets, including dogs, cats, birds, reptiles and fish, so I simply advise that pregnant women avoid feces of any pet to avoid possible dangers of infection that can affect the pregnancy. I mention Toxoplasmosis, Salmonella and Chlamydia as three examples of organisms that can spread through feces and pose a danger to pregnant women.

What you're doing is taking that abbreviated reference and trying to make it say that I can get Toxoplasmosis from a pet bird. Your reference discuses viruses in general, and yes, some viruses can spread by pruning equipment, but not all (and not the major RMV viruses). You're taking characteristics of some subgroups and applying them to the whole larger group. It's like saying "Cats, dogs, and ferrets are mammals kept as pets, and they eat meat. Therefore, all mammals kept as pets eat meat." But if I have a pet rabbit -- which is a mammal kept as a pet -- I most certainly won't be feeding it meat.

:-/

I really don't want to feed the troll. But we have misinformation happening again. The link above does NOT in any way indicate that PNRSV or any other virus known to cause rose mosaic has EVER been spread to a rose by mechanical means. It has not. As I've stated many times, for many years, there is not a single known case in the history of rose gardening of rose mosaic spreading from one plant to another in a garden. Not one. Not ever. Not by any means other than grafting. No reference ever presented by the arguer above has ever demonstrated the contrary. None.

If there were even one such case known, some of this drivel might actually be worth looking into. But since the number of cases of spread remains ZERO, we have, again, a case of extreme trolling, designed to destroy any intelligent discussion of an interesting and well-understood subject, by a person who knows precisely nothing about the disease, but who tries constantly to demonstrate the ignorance of those who work on it daily. It's mind-numbing. It's insulting to the readership of this forum.

AquaEyes, stated: "Henry, once again you are putting words into the mouth of your link. The information there was regarding viruses in general, and did not say that RMV can spread via pruning. RMV is one kind of virus."

H.Kuska comment: you appear to have missed my statement that follows immediately after the warning about pruning in the same post: "Is the pruning and cutting shears warning relevant to PNRSV in roses?"

You then make the following interesting statement: "Your reference discuses viruses in general, and yes, some viruses can spread by pruning equipment, but not all (and not the major RMV viruses)."
Please notice the use of "major". I repeat a rose gardner does not have the means to easily determine which virus is giving his mosaic symptons.
I recommend that northern gardeners clean their pruners to be safe.

Cleaning pruners ain't at all a bad idea -- tho not for anything related to virus.

I think pruners CAN spread Agrobacterium tumefaciens -- the causal agent of CROWN GALL, and avoiding that is a good reason to clean tools.

The Original Poster asked what one should do if they have received a virused plant. I am FAR more disturbed when I receive one that is infected with gall.

Jeri

Regarding Malcolm Manners statement: "The link above does NOT in any way indicate that PNRSV or any other virus known to cause rose mosaic has EVER been spread to a rose by mechanical means. It has not. As I've stated many times, for many years, there is not a single known case in the history of rose gardening of rose mosaic spreading from one plant to another in a garden. Not one. Not ever. Not by any means other than grafting. No reference ever presented by the arguer above has ever demonstrated the contrary. None."

H.Kuska comment: My summary in the link that I gave states: "Summary

Contrary to early "thinking" plants do have an immune system (natural defenses). As the temperature increases: the plant's natural defenses are better able to overcome the virus so the concentration of virus is decreased (or possibly even eliminated in the above ground parts of the rose. So any type of above ground spread such as: use of pruners, branches touching, pollen spread by insects, seed transfer) would be decreased. Thus, until spread research is done in northern climates, I recommend that basic precautions be utilized to prevent/minimize the possibility of above ground spread."
--------------------------
Malcom Maners makes the following statement in another web article: "There have been some lively debates over exactly how mosaic spreads in roses. Aphids,thrips,pruning shears,contaminated soil,root contact and pollen have all been suggested (Cochran,1988;Davidson,1988;Horst,1983,Manners,1988). Many growers continue to believe that mosaic can be transmitted by one or more of these means. Yet there has never been any proof of such contagion."

http://www.ars.org/?page_id=3233
------------------------------------
H.Kuska comment. Please note that transmission has been reported, but no controlled tests have shown it. My post is stating: "Thus, until spread research is done in northern climates,....". Can Malcolm Manners produce any examples of controlled tests in northern climates?

Henry, your statement "Is the pruning and cutting shears warning relevant to PNRSV in roses?"

Response -- found in this paper:
http://pub.jki.bund.de/index.php/JKA/article/download/605/1515

Pertinent statements from above paper quoted below:

"PNRSV and ApMV transmission by seed, pollen, on cutting implements and by root grafting from infected plants to healthy plants has been reported and the results showed that root grafting is involved in the natural spread of the virus in roses (Golino et al., 2005)."

Note "...and the results showed that root grafting is involved in the natural spread of the virus in roses." This means that claims of transmission via "cutting implements" were dismissed because of root grafting. Root grafting would require that roses are planted very close together, and results in contact more intimate than occurs via pruning equipment.

Also:
"Because the only proven means of transmission of RMD in roses is through vegetative propagation of infected buds,
scion or root stocks, the use of clean and virus-tested production material is essential to improve productivity in
gardens."

When you pull up references that say what you want to say and post them in isolation, you are neglecting to acknowledge that those statements were later further evaluated and discounted. The paper I cited is from 2010. Any rebuttal of the above must therefore be more recent to be taken seriously.

:-/

~Christopher

How many times do you try before you decide that a rose isn't right for your garden? I ask this because there have been times when I have had bad luck, blamed it on the rose variety, seen it growing well in someone else's yard in my city and tried again and had great results. Putting aside poor quality plants, how often is a plant just going to be weak because of the wood it was propagated from? I tried 3 times to buy a good Heritage and never had success ( one was a band and two were bareroot on Huey from Wayside and later DA). I saw a fantastic one in someone's yard a mile and a half away. They let me take cuttings which grew up to be outstanding plants.

I agree with Malcolm that VI plants are so much better. Worth every effort to seek them out.

That's a personal call, Kitty. I guess it would depend upon just how badly you want the rose and how willing you are to give it another try. I often draw the line at three, IF it's something I REALLY want. Otherwise, there are so many beautiful, intriguing roses out there, many of which are more than willing to flourish for me without the extra efforts these others demand. I gave both Church Mouse and The Dahlia Rose (budded and own root plants of each) three chances before they struck out. Fantan I gave many more chances before yanking that boil out by its three-quarters dead roots and tossing it into the trash.

If it helps, in my more arid, Savannah type climate, Heritage only performs well where and when it gets PLENTY of water, much more than the usual HTs, floribundas and other shrubs. And, this is on Huey roots, so it isn't the case of the varietal roots needing more water, but the ability of the cultivar to perform properly. Even with the extra water, the flowers are so fleeting here, it's one I have usually found more willing, less demanding roses to replace it with. Kim

AquaEyes, the 2010 Turkey paper is one that I have. Neither the paper nor your quotes indicate that they have anything experimental to add to the question of natural spread.

They do state: "Further detailed investigations are necessary to find out the causal agent/s of RMD in rose in the region, because infected rose plants can be an important factor in the epidemiology of virus diseases caused by these agents in rose plantations."
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Davis finding root graphs does not mean there can not be other contributions. The 2005 Davis paper stated: "The possibility remains that spread occurred by mechanical transmission due to contact between the leaves of the closely spaced plants and experiments are underway to test that putative mechanism of spread.")."

I assume that you found the Turkey reference through Citations from Google Scholar. It is the only one listed.
I posted a later paper abstract on the Rose Forum (see link below). I expect/hope that a full paper based on this report will appear shortly. However, if they did not utilize an air conditioned greenhouse, the results do not answer the question of cold climate spread.

Here is a link that might be useful: 2011 Davis paper abstract discussion

It took me 30 minutes to give up on this post & scroll past all the disconnected quotation marks & half sentences to the bottom only to end up with a headache and not ONE clue on where Elvis is. I am so disappointed. I'm going to go get a peanut butter & banana sandwich and a handful of ibuprofen.

How many times do you try before you decide that a rose isn't right for your garden?

*** Depends upon how in love you are, and how stubborn you are.
FOR WHATEVER REASONS, some plants of a given variety are better than others -- and that can even extend to disease-resistance.
If, during the time the first try was here, I TRULY fell in love with it, I will try again multiple times, but I will vary the source and the way the plant is grown.

And, like Kim, I have found many of the Austin roses to be too thirsty for me, in my coastal desert. We have grown many, and retained only a handful, in large part because of that issue (and also because of disease issues).

Jeri

Kitty, I truly wanted to grow 'Distant Drums' badly. Twice, I ordered it twice own-root and each time it died over the winter. The third time I ordered it grafted from a different source, and it's thrived. Different source, different root-stock was the key. If I want it badly enough, I don't give up easily. I've been accused of being hard-headed a time or two....and it occasionally pays off.

I had to chuckle, Terryjean. In the high heat, "badly" was the only way I COULD grow Distant Drums! LOL! Initially, the only source for it anywhere was ROYAT. Fortunately, eventually Week's produced it on Huey, apparently without all the downsides of ROYAT plants. In filtered sun, in my youngest sister's back yard, it does OK here. Kim

Kim, I could see why 'DD' would burn out in the hot heat. Mine's grafted on multiflora from Pickering. Multiflora does wonderfully here in my heavy clay soil. By early afternoon, it's shaded so its delicate blossoms are shaded. And please forgive my straying off subject :-).

Thanks for the info. about Heritage. I like it the same as Souv. M. They face each other with a walkway between them. Heritage is so pretty and has that nice lemony fragrance and not too thorny so it's closer to the walkway. I had given up until I saw the one in someone's yard looking so fantastic. I didn't even know it was Heritage until I walked over. I just saw a huge rose full of pink blooms and had to go over and see it. That house was sold a few years back and the new owners cut the plant down to nothing and never watered it well. What a shame. I can believe it was watering that made that plant what it was because the lawn it was next to was a pampered pet by the man who lived there. That Heritage probably ate the best lawn food money could buy. There aren't many deep green lawns around here but that was one of them. The roses stood out like gems against that perfect grass that got morning sun and dappled afternoon shade from perfectly thinned, big trees. My garden's never going to be that manicured but I'm going to remember that one for a long time. Every time I look at my Heritage, I think of that garden.