Even here at the coast, where it is markedly cooler than SoCal's inland temps,
we find that some roses do NOT handle a full day of direct sun on our south-facing hillside.

Any rose that does not carry foliage to the ground is subject, in that location,
to damaging sunburn on bare canes.

Jeri

I wonder if those pundits who recommend full sun have ever put a thermometer next to a rose that is broiling in Southern California or Texas heat. After all, how many people could survive in such a situation?

Ingrid

It's like 101 degrees out there every day. Nothing can live out there. The lizards can only take it for so long....

a rose is just basically a fancy apple tree. they grow best in some Himalayan cental asian mountainous regions, where apples first came from. a rose cannot handle the strong afternoon sun that you're experiencing down there. you need to plan your garden so there is some afternoon shade - try combining your rose garden with a vinyard, grow the grapes up on trellises that will protect your roses. For example, Krgystan, in central asia is the birthplace of the apple, and it's around the 40th parallel. San Antonio, on the other hand, is on the 30th parallel.

Fancy apple tree, interesting analogy. I have 3 or 4 that I lucked out with. I didn't notice until after I planted them but they ended up directly under the afternoon shade of the neighbors short oak trees that just barely peek over the fence line. They were so short in fact that I hadn't even taken them into consderation when planting the roses. Good thing they happened to be there though, I think that made all the difference in the world. Those roses the ones that are growing like monsters, 6 foot octopi! The other ones I think I'll end up planting some sort of vine like thing around. I don't know of grapes that do well in our soil (we have odd odd soil here) but we have a cross vine that grows like an insane weed that I can control and a Texas wisteria that I can also successfully control (I can, I swear, I already have it and it is totally tame).

that is one of the first things I learned, that a tree does not a forest make. And any book, almost all, that have a chapter on cultivation, whatever plant it is copy the same info from some freeby horticulture encyclopedia! I tried to plant hydrangeas in my "shade", two hours in the ground they started wilting and never came back. I think there needs to be a book written about shade, I
believe it is the most misunderstood word in horticulture.LOL

I have wondered about this sometimes myself. Is six hours of sun the same in Portland, Maine and Birmingham, AL? I have also wondered about exposure. 6 hours of Eastern exposure vs. Western exposure?

I think that most of us have found that if you grow roses in a warmer climate or higher zone that 'full sun' does not apply. Directions are general and probably are targeting areas that have shorter growing seasons.

Ideal would be 6 hours of sun that does not include mid- or late-afternoon sun. I have a several smaller trees along my west boundary--they give some protection from the damaging sun later in the day. Of course, that means I had to sacrifice some space that could have been dedicated to more roses, but I'd rather have half way decent looking roses (meaning no "fried rose" look) than simply more roses. On the other hand, when the temps get over 97-100, nothing much helps, unfortunately.

Kate

This is a good thread.
And something that needed to be discussed.
Full, all day sun during a Texas summer is intensely brutal.
Even sun-loving plants do not appreciate a string of dry, 105F days with no clouds in the sky.
It's no place for a plant as nice as a rose.
Partial sun works best for my roses here.

Randy

Funny that someone mentioned hydrangias. I noticed my neighbors son planting some in their front yard (shade), they are from New Orleans and not used to our climate here in San Antonio. I went over while he was planting and told him that they were lovely but that he'd have to do some serious care taking and watering with them. I'm not sure they'll ever bloom again but they sure did look pretty that first time around. No, this Texas sun and heat is not that forgiving and full sun in say, Wisconsin or Maine, is not the same in So Cal or here. Not near the same. My new game plan is now going to be come fall to start planting more trees. I have 30 on my lot as it is but none are all that large but I'm not moving any time in the near future so we must work with what we have...

Michelle, you're exactly right. It's nice and hot here in the summer, as well, but we get lots of rain and the humidity is always high. I can plant in full sun with no problem, and once a rose is established, I never water it. A person just really has to know their own climate/microclimate.

Yeah my microclimate is stupid hot and not terribly humid either. My 2 most established Belinda's Dream roses are completely brown and crispy sun scorched. I'll be amazed if they survive. They did not fare nearly as well as the Austins, and I thought the Belinda's Dream was bred for his climate.

In my experience, roses in the sun for the first 6 hrs. of the day and then in the shade will do well. Also, if there is a lot of air circulation, later or longer sun is tolerable. My back rose garden is enclosed by a privacy fence, therefore, the roses and perennials are in a hotter and more humid microclimate than the ones in my front bed which get plenty of air circulation but have more afternoon sun exposure. There is a huge difference in full sun in PA and full sun in LA! One of the problems is uninformed staff and buyers for the plant vendors. If the buyers for the big box stores would take more interest in the suitability of plants for each location, and then educate the workers better, every plant would be happier and the customers would be happier as well.

Michelle, just one caution about trees.
It's not their SHADE that causes a problem -- well, I think not the main problem.
It is their ROOTS.

The roots of many trees conflict with the root development of roses.
I complained, 15 years back, when we helped plant a rose garden in our
city's central park.
They planted a Jacaranda (read, BIG) tree, smack next to a rose bed.
I pleaded for it to be moved, as it was tiny, and could have been.
A decade and a half later, the tree is gorgeous.
The roses under it are about dead.
Roots.

Jeri

Oh don't worry, I know. Funny enough I have 2 jacarundas to plant too! I am not planting anything underneath them though because they create such a huge mess when they bloom. raking would be a nightmare if I planted anything underneath them. So mulch it is and nothing else. Thanks everybody!

Wow I guess I need to tell those Chinas in my front yard that get sun from sun up to sundown that they shouldn't have all those leaves on them and look as good as they do.

Oh wait maybe it's all the compost in the soil and layers of mulch on top.....and to think I hardly water them.

Of course the hybrid teas look bad but they're on their way out. Don't need anymore babies to take care of.

Regarding your previous post, Shebear, I would love to know the names of the China roses you grow in full sun - they sound like just the kind of roses I'm looking for!

Erica, on our South-facing hillside, where the sun is quite intense, we grow
Teas, Noisettes, and Chinas with good results, and little or no trouble with sunburn.
They carry enough foliage to protect themselves.
Take a look at:
'Mme Berkeley,' 'G. Nabonnand,' "Emmie Gray," "Single Red China," 'White Pearl
In Red Dragon's Mouth,' 'Niles Cochet,' 'Duchesse de Auerstadt,'
'Etoile de Lyon,' 'Smith's Parish' (?Five-Colored Rose?) 'Reve d'Or,' and
others of that type.

Jeri

Well, Sacramento's further north than Texas, but it's hot - 105 forecast for today. Our roses generally do much better with full sun. I think that yours are just struggling to get established. When did you plant them? Are they getting enough water? What's the story with your strange soil? Are they mulched?

I'm originally from Ohio and it's taken me decades to learn to garden where it doesn't rain for months on end, and where the soils are so different.

In Sacramento's July and August, blossoms are usually smaller, flowering may slow down, and flowers may scorch, but rose foliage should be fine. Exposed canes may sunburn, which is why plants that stay clothed in leaves, and which are virtually evergreen in mild climates, do so much better. It's also an argument against deadheading the usual way, back to a 5-leaflet cluster - I'm an advocate of just snapping off the flower stems, and leaving the leaves to do their job. Chinas, teas, noisettes, hybrid musks - most of these take the sun in stride. Also the polyanthas.

In the cemetery, we've been losing huge elms that gave us a lot of shade. When the trees are removed, the roses spring to life, growing twice as big and blooming twice as much. It may be not having the root competition, but I believe the main factor is sun. I've seen it in my own garden,when I move roses.

Don't give up - just choose what grows well for you, and treat them with extra kindness the first summer or two. If you are new to San Antonio, find other rosarians to talk with, and of course visit the Antique Rose Emporium.
Anita

They were planted in the beginning of last summer, a very wet wet wet summer for us here. Unusually wet. This summer has been insanely dry and we're under water restrictions so they've been getting much less water. Our soil, one inch of sod, 2 inches of clay, the rest is solid rock until the earth's core. And you think I kid but I don't. You don't want to know what it costs to put in a sprinkler system or a pool out here. They are well mulched but they could probably do with more watering which I have increased because they are hella scorched right now. I have 2 Belinda's Dream that are totally scorched, all the leaves are completely gone and these roses were totally full bushes and well established, oddly not in my worst full afternoon sun spots either. Dead heading? Not a problem here, I've had no blooms this summer, too hot. I've got one rose bush in the full shade that's been able to grow some leaves. Does that tell you how bad it's been? Yeah, not one of the better summers in my garden. Texas, feast or famine, feast or famine. Mostly famine this year. And the water police have been out and at it this season too! I saw my neighbor's usually dripping water spout (for 2 years now) was red tagged and turned off by the water company! Yup, they're coming down hard on us gardeners this year boy howdy...

And the water police have been out and at it this season too! I saw my neighbor's usually dripping water spout (for 2 years now) was red tagged and turned off by the water company! Yup, they're coming down hard on us gardeners this year boy howdy...

*** We read this morning that Los Angeles is starting that.
I'm shaking in my boots, because part of our water comes from Calleguas, which comes
from LADWP.
So what hits them down there will eventually be interpreted in one way or another by
our little Mutual Water Company.

I'm almost afraid to take any more water-saving measures than I am already,
because I'm afraid they will then demand a 10% cut from that. Meanwhile,
our neighbors dump half the water in their swimming pool down the street at
least once a week.

Jeri

Thanks, Jeri, for the rose suggestions. This is an interesting thread for me as all my garden books say to plant roses in full sun but a lot of the roses you see in public areas (all Hybrid Teas) are looking very tired right now. Just ocasionally I see a rose in someone's doorway which is doing well (most Spanish gardens are hidden behind high walls!) and I'm tempted to knock on the door and ask what it is!

Oh Erica, those are probably the BEST roses!

Here in Southern CA, our architecture has been strongly influenced by the
Spanish tradition. It makes for some lovely gardens.

Jeri