You need to work organics into your beds. Follow the recommendations regarding lime as your pH is very low.
Good company. Many places give additive recommendations for acreage. This is the first one I've seen that gives suggestions for the home garden.

It's not a company--it's Virgina Tech. I do work organics into my beds--obviously not enough. My concern is the very high ratings on some things and what to do about them.

Thanks,
Barbara

Usually, a farmer will get a soil test in the in the spring and the main objective is to predict the optimum amount of fertilizer for the season. If you get a mid-season soil test, the best it can say is you've already added enough fertilizer, and that's what your test seems to be saying.

Soil organic matter is usually considered optimum at 5 to 10%. This is for commercial agriculture, perhaps roses might do well at higher organic content but I am inclined to doubt it. Both the low pH and the high organic content of your soil suggest that you've added an excessive amount of sphagnum peat moss to your bed.

The ratings for phosphorous and potassium are very high and the cure is to not apply more of these in a fertilizer. Notice that nitrogen was not tested, this is normal because it is difficult to predict the nitrogens need from any test.

I think the advice to contact your extension agent is good. Tell him (or her) everything you can about the history of your rose bed and see what he suggests.

Mike, I've added NO peat moss to the beds. The potting mix is peat based, but NONE has been added to the beds. The organic additives have been well-rotted manure, my compost, alfalfa, and coffee grounds.

Thanks,
Barbara

Barbara, do you know the pH of the native soil in your bed before you added the organic material? If it is not strongly acidic, then I would think your organic amendments or your fertilizing practices must be responsible for the low pH.

Mike, there is no native soil in the beds I had tested. They're all raised and filled with bagged topsoil/bagged composted manure. But that's been in place for about 10 years. Until this year, I grew vegetables in those beds and had bumper crops. During that time I added about 1-2" of well-rotted horse manure, tilled in well, about 3 times. My friend did a pH test on a new bag of topsoil and it was basically neutral. I'm sure it's my fertilizing practices and that the buildup of soluble salts--which can inhibit nutrient uptake--is also a result of that. In fact, it may be the main culprit. Probably due to Miracle Gro--which I used twice a month, according to package directions.

I'm planning on adding lime and watering a lot. Starting off with liquid lime to just start the process. There's also a product sold by Rosemania that leaches out soluble salts. That may be worth a try, as well. I hesitate to use nitrate of soda for fertilizer. Couldn't that add to the salt content that I'm trying to correct? Is ammonium nitrate available? Would urea work just as well? Less, of course, since it's 46% nitrogen. I really only want to add nitrogen, since my P and K are so high.

Your thoughts? I will consult my extension agent, but I have to confess I've heard her say things that I *know* to be not quite on the mark.

Thanks,
Barbara

Barbara, I agree with not adding P and K, but I wonder if you really need nitrogen. sodium nitrate tends to make soil more alkaline, but I agree that it's a poor choice given the high soluble salts in your soil. Calcium nitrate would seem like a better choice, but why add nitrogen at all?

Rosemania's Clearex is supposed to work to remove salts from the soil but so is plain tap water - if it's soluble, it's got to be leachable. This brings up the subject of your irrigation water, what's its pH and how high are the salts in it?

Added in excess, Miracle Gro does tend to acidify the soil. Actually, the potential acidity of Miracle Gro is listed as 700 pounds of lime per ton. This translates into about 6 pounds of lime per 17 pounds of Miracle Gro. Six pounds of lime is roughly what it takes to change the soil pH by one unit in 100 sq ft of garden bed, so...if worst comes to worst, 17 pounds of Miracle Gro per 100 sq ft of bed could lower your soil pH by 1 unit.

Barbara, good for you, getting the test. Now you know the bed has enough of everything to last for years, except some nitrogen will be needed down the line, not necessarily this year.

Fertilizing lowers pH insofar as we add more nitrogen than the plants can use. That seems the likeliest explanation for the acidity in view of the history of the beds. And the high salts is from heavy fertilizing. Probably just a couple of heavy waterings (2") would reduce the salts some. Allow a week between to drain.

The handiest source of high-N fertilizer is the plain Turf Builder or generic equivalent with about 33% N, from urea. Two TSP per plant would be an amount of N similar to one TB of MG for Roses. As Mike implies, you probably don't need to apply N just now. You have rich soil, probably some alfalfa and manure still releasing N, and high OM content, which is a source of slow N. But maybe one TSP lawn fertilizer every 2 weeks could be used if you enjoy fertilizing often (Mike?). Also you can use alfalfa or tea moderately.

Rose gardeners fret about having enough nutrients in the soil, but I suspect if people would test, most rose beds would check out like these-- too much rather than too little.

I have used the Clearex leaching product for the past two years just before putting the roses to bed for the winter with great results. I too had high salt content which is now normalize and I believe the Clearex used once a year will keep it under control. Just my 2 cents

I'm not a soil scientist, but I would add some lime, and leave it at that. Sounds like the last thing they need are more salts. And I would talk to my extension agent.

Hi, Barbara,
I'm nobody but a gardener who had to deal with salt issues from a very different source. Everything I mention here was explained to me by the very patient soil scientist (a guy with a PhD in chemistry) who did the soils, water and tissue tests on my garden to figure out what was wrong.

I agree you need advice on the priority of addressing these issues: leaching out excessive soluble salts and balancing the pH. By western standards, the soluble salts aren't really very bad. Roses vary a lot in their salt tolerance. Yellow roses hate salt, every last yellow rose.

Your soils report includes a boilerplate recommendation for 10-10-10 which makes little sense with already high levels of potassium and phorporus. Nitrogen-only fertilizers are inexpensive if you can get to a landscape or farm supply store. 2 cups of sodium nitrate for 100 square feet is a very small amount of fertilizer.

One reason soluble salts are a bit high could be that you used manure as a large component in your beds. Steer manure in particular is quite high in soluble salts. The usual cure for excessive soluble salts is to wash them away, to leach them with lots of excellent quality water. You don't have any reason to believe there's a problem with the quality of your water? Leaching takes repeated flooding, but it does work. After the soil is already damp, then you have to add two inches of water. Then you have to do it again. That's a lot of water.

I disagree with Karl. Your pots and your raised beds have more more than enough organic matter. The percentages are really high. Really high. Excessive organic matter is not benign. It becomes important when soil chemistry goes a little haywire. Organic matter serves as a reservoir for nutrients. If you have too many nutrients, organic matter is the reservoir that releases those nutrients to your plants. Soluble salts are excessive nutrients.

Yep, a little advice would be good. Your pots and garden "soils" are different and need different treatment. Some soil might go a long way in those garden beds.

Mike Rivers: "Added in excess, Miracle Gro does tend to acidify the soil." I really don't think I added it in excess, but since my beds are high in organic matter and I mulch heavily, I don't have to water a lot--I only watered before I fertilize and before I spray. Otherwise, it's not needed--I check and the soil is moist. This could tend to keep it retained longer in the soil, maybe, and contibute to buildup?

I'm trying to find out the pH of my water and how much salt is in it. I'd thought of that before but then it left my feeble brain so I'm glad you brought it up. I'm on city water and I called today but had to leave a message for a return call from the water treatment manager. I'll try to call him again tomorrow. I've heard others speak positively about Clearex so that's my backup plan if simple watering doesn't do the trick. I do have rain barrels set up, so I'm planning on using that water as much as possible, but it won't be enough.

michaelg: I'm sure you're right in that I don't NEED to give them anything at this point, and it's not that I *enjoy* fertilizing often ;-) But I am planning on showing roses in September and I wanted to get them ready for that, so I'm looking for the most reasonable source of nitrogen, considering the rest of the soil analysis. Turf builder. Huh. Never thought about that. I'll check it out. I usually apply alfalfa tea once a month, but I'll hold off on that for the rest of this year, I think.

mbundick: thanks for your 2 cents--I appreciate it. I'm sure keeping Clearex in mind. I have a lot of roses and I can see how it could get expensive, though, so I'm going to try plain water first. If it doesn't do the trick, I'll invest in the Clearex.

Thanks, guys, for helping me think this through. Any other thoughts are welcome.

Barbara

jbcarr: I have no intention of adding more salts if I can help it. Thanks.

Cass: I agree, 10-10-10 is not a good choice for my beds. I can find sodium nitrate easily enough, but I hesitate to use it due to the sodium--more salt. I'm planning on watering but I don't know if my water is high quality or not :( I only added horse manure, myself, but I have no way of knowing what went in the bagged manure. But it's been in the beds for 10 years--would it still be an issue, especially when I grew vegetables in those beds all that time?

You confirm my guess that high levels of organic matter can cause retention of nutrients, incuding salts.

Soil *would* be good, there's just none of it around. My native soil is gooey red clay and I don't have any with which to fill the beds, anyway, and there's no source of good topsoil. The beds are raised so I could line them with hardware cloth to deter voles. If I hadn't done that, this would all be a moot point ;-) I have to rely on bagged soil and make it work the best I can. Thanks for your thoughts--I appreciate it. I know it will take time to raise the pH and leach out the salts. 95% of my roses look just great--it was a few that got my attention and made me think something was off.

Barbara

Barbara, I have voles too. I feel your pain. Fortunately, their populations are on the wane here, back down to a dull roar.

I sorta doubt you had a sudden salt build-up. The way chemistry works, everything seems fine until you reach a threshold. You never know you've had enough until you've had too much.

Cass, your voles must be immigrating here ;-) Seriously, they're awful. When I plant, I see tunnels under the hardware cloth. I find tunnels right up against the baskets in which my roses are planted. Barriers are the only solution, I'm convinced. The neighbor's cat helps a lot, too, but he's only one cat ;-) My 10 are indoor-only and lazy, to boot!

I just found out my water pH runs 7.5-8.0, consistently, with the average of 7.7. It's treated with: small amounts of sodium flouride, hydrated lime for pH control, and chlorine. So, "I'm gonna wash those salts right outta my soil" ;-) And add lime. If I stop fertilizing, too, it should work eventually. I figure I'll get another soil test done early next Spring and go from there, and my friend will test pH for me any time I ask. Hopefully this coming winter won't be as dry as last winter--that would help.

I really am glad I tried that cheap soil test kit. I'd have never suspected I had acidic soil without it and I've have kept on making matters worse.

Thanks for all the help!

Barbara

Barbara, if you enjoy thinking about this sort of thing, here's some more stuff on the acidifying effect of fertilizers.

Urea, the nitrogen source in Miracle Gro, lowers the pH of a soil only to the extent that nitrate ion is leached from the soil and not consumed by the plant. The rationale for this statement is that urea is rapidly oxidized in the soil to nitric acid. When a plant takes up the nitrate part of nitric acid it also adds enough alkali to the soil to neutralize the acid part. If, instead of being consumed, the nitrate part is lost by leaching, the acid part remains in the soil to permanently acidify the soil. Nitrate ion has a negative charge and it does not bind strongly to the soil, the only requirement for it to leach is that some positive ion, like sodium or potassium, has to accompany it to maintain overall electrical neutrality in the soil. Your rose bed has some key factors which might favor leaching of nitrate:

1) You have a raised bed, perhaps over a hard clay bottom. It should be especially easy for water to move through this bed - and carry nitrate with it.

2) your soil has a high concentration of soluble salts. These salts can provide the positive ions necessary to accompany nitrate in a leaching process.

3) Your soil is high in organic matter and this is a potential source of nitrogen to your plants. Meaning, your plants might get all the nitrogen they need without consuming, and thereby neutralizing, any of the nitrate you add with MiracleGro.

A key question would be how much nitrogen does a rose really consume and how much nitrogen does a label feeding of Miracle Gro provide. According to one study with greenhouse roses, the monthly need of a rose is 2 grams of nitrogen. One of the recommended feeding schedules of 18:24:16 Miracle Gro is 1 tbs in a gallon of water every 7 days, per plant. This amounts to about 8 grams of nitrogen per month, four times what a rose appears to need.

Barbara,
Your red clay can also grow roses. If you were to order roses on multiflora rootstock from Canada and plant them in your red clay, you might be very pleasantly surprised at how easily roses can grow.
Ann, also with red clay

What is Clearex? I wonder if it is mainly gypsum.

Michaelg, my best guess is that Clearex is mostly citric acid, which acts as a chelate for most metal salts and dissolves things like calcium phosphate and limestone. It's the main ingredient in some similar soil-flushing products.

Mike, I do find it interesting. I'm one who wants to know "why"? about things. You're right about the beds being over hard clay bottoms, and they do drain really well. I wasn't feeding as much MG as that study did--about half, which was still too much, apparently, considering my soil makeup. So, what I think I hear you saying, is that I probably don't need to feed anything for a while ;-). That's what I'm thinking. If I get the pH improved, and get rid of the salts, the roses can take advantage of the nutrients that I already have in abundance. Right?

I know I overfed, in pursuit of good roses to exhibit. I need to remember the reason I started growing roses to begin with: to have lovely roses in my garden. If I have a rose to exhibit, then good, that's a bonus. I'm rethinking my rose growing practices, obviously :)

Ann, I know my clay can grow roses. It also grows lots of hungry voles. Roses in my red clay with voles don't last long enough to see how they would do. Neither do yummy vegetables (the original reason for the hardware cloth-lined raised beds). Ask me how I know. Nevermind, I'll tell you ;-) The first year I tried to grow roses unprotected I lost 30% of what I'd planted to voles. Them's pretty crappy odds, if you ask me, and downright discouraging. And, yes, I'm *sure* it was voles. One day a rose looks good, the next day it's drooping and falling over with the roots chewed clean off. Believe me, building, lining, filling raised beds is a lot of hard, backbreaking work. I wouldn't have done it if I'd thought there was a good alternative. Voles are also why I have over 200 hostas in pots.

michaelg, good question. Maybe mbundick will see this and look on his/her label and see?

Thanks again!
Barbara

So, going back to Mike's post about roses using 2 grams of nitrogen per month-- I assume that's for medium-sized HT plants growing at the maximum-- the N requirement for a month would be met by any of these:
2 TSP Turf Builder
2 TSP Miracid
1 TB Miracle Gro (18% N)
2 TB 10-10-10.

The 1 TB MG or 2 TB 10-10-10 would also provide more phosphate and potassium than the rose could use. This is assuming no competition from tree roots, no excessive water, and soil capable of holding ammonium and potassium ions. Also if shrubs and southern garden HTs are maybe twice as big as greenhouse HTs, they would need twice as much fertilizer.

michaelg and Mike Rivers: last night I looked at a bag of TurfBuilder. I think it was something like 33-6-6. I'm thinking even the little bit of P & K that would be in 2 tsp would be too much to add right now to my soil. So *if* I use anything I think it should be straight nitrogen, right? I'm tending to think I should just forget about feeding anything else the rest of this season and work on the pH and soluble salts. That brings up something else that I need to know if I've got straight: since build up of soluble salts and soil acidity seem to be linked, won't the mere act of leaching out the salts increase the pH at least a tiny bit? BUT, if I'm following Mike Rivers correctly, then in my beds the leaching process may also take out nitrogen? Gee, but it's complicated. And I just wanted to grow roses ;-)

Earlier this year, one of my rose society's programs was on fertilizing roses. The speaker uses strictly urea and supplements P & K based on soil tests. He grows some awesome exhibition roses and has a business caring for some other rose gardens, as well. They're all in the ground in native soil, though, as far as I know.

I started watering heavily tonight.

You guys are great and I thank you for helping me try to understand what's going on here.
Barbara

Barbara, I like the way you're thinking. The consistent advice here is....
leach first, nutrient later. It's makes sense, if you think about it.

Barbara, leaching is unlikely to raise your soil pH and you can use the results of your soil test to see why. Hydrogen ions, or protons, are the source of acidity. In a mixture of soil and water, most of the protons are bound to the soil and only a small fraction is in the soil water.

How many protons are in your soil water? The soil pH measures this. Your soil pH is roughly 5, so the concentration of protons in your soil water is roughly 0.00001 moles per liter.

How many protons are in your soil? The soil test suggests that 15 pounds of lime will be needed to raise the soil pH of 100 sq ft of bed to a satisfactory level. Fifteen pounds of lime will neutralize 136 moles of protons.

So how much water would you need to flush 136 moles of protons out of 100 sq ft of bed if the concentration of protons in the flushing water is 0.00001 moles per liter? You would have to flush with 136 divided by 0.00001 liters of water which amounts to 13,600,000 liters of water.

About leaching nitrogen. Most fertilizers and OM supply N in the ammonium form. Ammonium can bind lightly to clay and OM in the soil. You have a good CEC of 17, which indicates that the soil can hold ammonium and other nutrients. Also ammonium will continue to be released gradually by the OM as long as the soil is warm and aereated.

Bacterial action oxidizes ammonium into nitrate gradually over a period of 2-3 weeks in warm, aereated soil, or much longer in cool, soggy soil. Unlike ammonium, nitrate leaches readily. Some of it would be held for a while in the clay subsoil if not much water moves through there.

You might want to apply nitrogen in the leadup to the fall show, when the growth buds have broken. Roses take up ammonium most heavily during the period of shoot elongation.

I don't think the 6% P and K in the lawn fertilizer would be significant, given the low rate of application, but the only reason I prefer it to urea is that I can find convenient-sized bags anywhere. It does contain some slow-release N to even out the supply a bit.

If you enjoy fertilizer humor, you won't want to miss this little website by an enterprising guy.

Here is a link that might be useful: Terracycle

After reading that link, I hasten to say that I don't use Scotts Turf Builder, but a generic 34% N lawn fertlizer from Ace Hardware :)

Talk about going after the little guy! Hard to see much similarity in their packaging. For one thing, they (terrracycle) are going after a specific (organic) market. There is room for both of them. I have used it, it works great, but can only afford it for my few houseplants. It says not to dilute it, so l litre doesn't go very far. Of course, there may be another of its' products that you have to dilute; the former is all I could find in my area. It's a great concept though, and I'm sure the price will go down if they ever increase their distribution and customer base. Of course, with you-know-who breathing down their necks, it will be a rough ride. Love their sense of humour though.....
Judith

I don't agree that the organic matter caused acidity. Finished compost has a neutral pH, no matter what was put into it (manure included), unless you specifically put lime or acidifier in the compost.

Manure does tend to have salt, but Miracle Grow has way more, and I suspect that's the reason for your high salt content. I would put down the lime they recommended, and consult your county extension office for any other recommendations. Gypsum will also raise soil pH some, as well as help neutralize the salt, so I would apply that as well. By the way, the soil does not hold nitrogen for any amount of time, so it always needs to be given to plants. I'd stick with alfalfa meal or pellets for that rather than chemical ferts. Lots of chemical ferts have high salt content.

I'd also do some searches and reading over on the soil forum. Lots of info over there about soil issues. Especially pay attention to posts by captaincompostal and dchall san antonio. They're quite knowledgeable - you might even consider emailing them your soil results and ask for some advice.

Deanna

Here is a link that might be useful: Soil Forum

A few weeks ago I attended a lecture by the southern garden guru, Felder Rushing. He gave two bits of advice regarding soil tests: (1) Don't do one; and (2) if you've done one, ignore the results.

Cass, yes, it makes perfect sense. If the soil can't take up nutrients because of the high soluble salts, then why add them. I do use some Scott's products but I've never seen Terracyle around here. Good sense of humor :)

Mike Rivers, OK, you made my brain hurt but I get it--that's a lot of water ;-)

michaelg, that's good to know. Maybe I should add some nitrogen to the ones that I'm hoping to show, at least. I can find urea pretty readily, and I won't be taking the chance of adding more soluble salts.

gardenfanatic, you're right, I'd forgotten about the soil forum. I'll check it out. I could put down some alfalfa tea--meal or pellets have never seemed to do anything for me but the tea does. But of course, I was always adding MG to it ;-) I could try fish emulsion, too, I suppose, although the one and only time I did that raccoons dug up the roses looking for the fish.

windeaux, I know Felder is highly respected, but wouldn't I be in a pickle if I hadn't done the soil test? I was going on the ASSUMPTION that my soil was ALKALINE instead of ACIDIC and that was what was causing my chlorosis. I'd have made matters worse if I hadn't gotten the soil test and then read them ;-) Sorry, Felder.

Guys, this is really getting to be an education. I'm still thanking each and every one of you for your input. My roses will thank you too. I just realized something when I was walking outside a few minutes ago. I have 4 Aloha and have yet to get a decent bloom this year from any of them--every one--and there have been a lot considering I'm keeping 3 of them pruned as shrubs and one is climbing but in some shade--has had severely vegetative centers--to the point where I've been seriously considering shovel pruning them. There are several new buds that are looking good since I've stopped the twice monthly feedings. Coincidence? Perhaps not, we'll see.

Thanks again and again!
Barbara

Barbara,

Your post has got me thinking - I think I'll get a soil test done too. No point in continuing to throw stuff on my plants unless I know they really need them. Not to mention, I would definitely want to know if something is way out of whack in the soil.

Deanna

Deanna, this has made me a believer, that's for sure. Good luck with yours!

Barbara

I hope I am finally posting a picture, wish me luck.

[IMG]http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e184/JMorris271/Flushcompressed.jpg[/IMG]

ugg..sorry

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