'Archduke Charles' -- an old plant in a historic Northern California cemetery.

I have actually seen one that was taller and wider, but this is close.

Jeri

"Duchess Debrant"???

'Duchesse de Brabant' maybe?????

This is an old plant, but I think perhaps it might grow larger than this.

Yes I meant Duchesse de Brabant:). Both seem to get fairly large and will need plenty of space. I wasn't sure if they grew larger depending on what zone they are grown in. I really want want DdB and MBRC so I may have to alter my garden plans to have both, but from what I have read about them it will be worth it to have both.

For me Mrs. B.R. Cant has been more of a sprawler, quite a bit wider than tall, so I'd give this lady plenty of room. My DdB was a more upright grower, somewhat taller than wide, but she succumbed to the heat before maturity. I have seen pictures where she was quite a bit larger than on Jeri's picture, but I think this rose, which does not have massive canes, can be kept to the desired size, once she has a few years on her, 5 x 5 feet probably being more than adequate. I'm trying her again in a more shady spot this November.

Ingrid

Yes. Ingrid, I suspect in your conditions, she would appreciate more shade. Such a delicate rose.

So how much shade can DdB tolerate? I have a spot in my yard that gets morning sun and very little afternoon sun until around 1. Would that be enough sun for her to bloom as much as I've heard she does?

When it comes to size, much depends upon where you live. I have both of these roses. Archduke Charles is not very large for me. However, in the back on a hill I have two Duchesse de Brabant, and they both are quite large. I would say Archduke is about the size of Jeri's beautiful dog picture, but both Duchesse roses are much taller and wider.

Mrs B.R. Cant has become a waste of money for me. She will not adjust to our winters. Even if I can get her to live for a few years, she will die off from winter kill. Rosette Delizy was the same way.

Sammy

For us (central Florida), grafted to 'Fortuniana' rootstock, Duchesse de Brabant is probably 4x4', maybe eventually 5x5'. We do light pruning of Teas in the spring, and minimal deadheading other times.

Archduke Charles is taller for us, perhaps 6 feet tall by 3-4' wide. We grow it in a rather crowded bed, so I suppose it might spread out if it had more room.

Mrs. B. R. Cant (on 'Fortuniana' roots) is surely the most vigorous shrub-form Tea I've ever grown. Easily 6-7 feet tall by 8 feet wide in one year. I don't know how big it would get eventually, since I always prune it in the spring. We used to have 8 of them in a 24-foot octagonal bed, where they grew together to form a gigantic mound, 8 feet tall by about 30 feet across. It was quite a comment-getter!

Sammy and Malcom thanks for your comments, that helps to know where I will be placing the girls. We have fairly mild winters so MBRC should be ok. I did check with Chamblees about how big MBRC got in Texas and they indicated about 5x5 ft, but everyone on the forum had stated she gets much larger for them. I am also curious as to how much shade DdB can tolerate and still put out blooms. I am definitely going to be getting both but just want as much info as possible so I can make sure they are placed in the best possible place in my yard. Thanks everyone. And Jeri thanks for the pics, they are beautiful and I love the Dalmatian too!

I had an own-root Duchesse de Brabant from Chamblees for about 5 years (very susceptible to mildew, so off she went finally, though a very beautiful rose). She was 7' tall and at least as wide and was this size even when pruned back by 1/3 every winter.

At 11 years in the ground, Mrs. B.R. Cant is at least 7' tall and 12' wide (last time I measured which was a couple of years ago; she's bigger now). I don't prune her, only remove dead wood. By the way, she has been infected with bacterial gall for at least the past 6 years, probably longer, but blooming and appearance are still satisfactory, so she stays.

Now, this is zone 9b and I have soil which can't grow a decent tomato but apparently suits roses very well, among other factors, so YMMV.

Catspa -- I think there are some DdB plants that mildew, and some that don't.

Jeri

Well, that would be good news, Jeri -- I loved the rose except for that, so I may try again, only not from Chamblees.

I was wanting both DdB and MBRC to be planted on each side of my porch steps so that I could enjoy their blooms and fragrance when sitting on the porch but I think that both are going to be too large for that area and I am going to have to find more suitable spots for both. I have however decided that maybe Marie Pavie would be a good choice after reading about her on the Marie Pavie thread. She sounds like she should be the right size and while she doesn't have the big full blooms that attracted me to the other 2 roses, it sounds like she is very fragrant and can tolerate shade. I feel like a crazy person trying to decide what to plant lol. Thanks Ingrid and Jeri for all your help.

Oh brother, wouldn't you know the DdB I've ordered is from Chamblee's. I'll have to keep my fingers crossed about the mildew or cancel the order and try another vendor.

boncrow, I'm not sure whether your question about shade and DdB was ever addressed. The amount of sun you mention may be marginal or could be satisfactory. It wouldn't hurt to try; the rose can always be moved while it's still small if it doesn't do well there. The advantage would be that its rather delicate blooms would last longer with afternoon shade.

Ingrid

I have decided to get DdB but she will not be in the shade but in almost full sun all day so I hope she isn't too delicate she can't handle the heat. I guess that's something else to think about, ugh! Am I making this too hard? I really feel it shouldn't be this hard of a decision lol.

Ingrid, why don't you call Mark Chamblee? Your type of mildew may be different from what may be in Texas or the east coast. I believe we do not have downy mildew in this part of the country.

Chamblees and ARE are both very good, and the owners are accessible to any of us.

Sammy

Sammy, I wish I'd thought of doing that. I've already canceled the order and put one in at ARE so I'll leave it at that. I wanted to order from Chamblee's since their roses are in gallon pots, and I hope that ARE's are also a good size since the cost of getting the rose from them is actually quite a bit higher.

Ingrid

My DdB and Mrs BR Cant were new last year. I lost DdB to the polar vortex this winter, but replaced her and added Archduke Charles this year. They are all in full sun all day and seem to handle that just fine. I'm not sure how DdB would do here with shade. She was bad to ball and had some mildew (very rare here) until things started to heat up. MBRC balled some earlier in the season, too, but both are doing okay now. (my DdB came from Petals from the Past, so evidently they don't have the non-mildewy version). Its been in the upper 90's all this week; heat index in the lower 100's due to the humidity. Here's a picture of DdB from this morning with the same blooms that have been on her all week.

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And here's what she looked like Wednesday:

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Thanks for the pictures, pat. It's amazing how humidity keeps blooms from crisping. With those temperatures DdB would have been potpourri before the end of the first day in my dry garden. Interestingly, your rose has many more petals than either one of mine did, which makes for a much more beautiful flower.

Ingrid

I have Mrs. B. R. in way too much shade. She's 8'x8', still blooms pretty good despite the lack of sun, growth is rather elongated because of the shade. No disease. I think she'd be perfect in a little more sun but not full sun, because the delicacy of the flowers and thin quality of the foliage would be damaged in full sun.

Thanks Pat, your DbD is beautiful! Sounds like we have the same type of climate so she should do just fine in my yard as well. I am still considering Archduke Charles but have for sure decided on Ducher for the shady area of my yard after speaking with someone at ARE. The people at the ARE were very helpful and knowledgable about what would grow well in part of Texas and made me feel I was making the right choices for my garden. So with that I am for sure planting DbD and Ducher and will still be heavily considering Marie Pavie and ADC.

For what it is worth, I have a DdB which is on its own roots, and is a clone of a very old one (planted probably in the 19teens or 20s).

It is one of the "many petaled" type (Cass Bernstein once did a survey on here of everyone who grew DdB, and which had more vs less amounts of petals - I never saw the results). The blooms on mine never crisp, but we are in a rather mild climate - warm/hot summers, but humidity usually somewhere between 40% and 60% in the Summers. Mine is about 7 ft high and 6 ft wide, and is about 10 years old. Gets a little mildew in the Spring, but sort of grows out of it during the Summer. I love it.

Jackie

Thanks Jackie, I can't wait to plant DbD next spring. She will be next to some tall stairs going up to the deck so I can see and smell her and the Ducher's will be going on either side of the steps on the other end of the deck that are more shaded in the afternoon. I am glad I was finally about to make a decision lol. Thanks everyone for all your patients and help!