Mycorrhizae made no difference because it is already in the soil of almost all gardens and on the roots of bare-root roses when you buy them. (Heavy use of phosphate fertilizers will suppress it.) This product is basically useless except maybe in some artificial growing media.

Gypsum is "organic" in the sense of "organic gardening." It is a natural mineral.

Gypsum is not necessarily beneficial. If your soil is neutral, it probably already has plenty of calcium. (Calcic soils are common in Italy.) The big exception is in soils that are high in sodium, which typically are alkaline desert soils. With those, gypsum can replace the sodium with calcium, improving both the soil texture and nutritive quality.

Hi Bart: The test-kit at HomeDepot WAS NOT accurate for me, it's good to confirm if your soil is indeed neutral with the Red Cabbage test that I wrote in the Soil Section of English Roses Forum.

If your soil is indeed neutral, there's no need to add calcium sulfate unless a soil test specifies that your soil is deficient in calcium.

Calcium is most deficient in acidic soil. My soil is alkaline, pH 7.7, but tested barely adequate due to calcium tied-up with phosphorus at higher pH.

Best to re-test your soil again with the "Cheapest way to test soil pH with red-cabbage" before using calcium sulfate. See link below for more info. about calcium sulfate:

Here is a link that might be useful: Previous discussion on calcium suflate

Hi Bart: Here's a pdf file that explains how calcium sulfate works. I hope that helps.

Here is a link that might be useful: Soil Solutions, LLC and calcium sulfate

bart_2010,

I have consistently read that Rugosas definitely prefer acidic soil; especially that in the range of 5.6 - 6.5., with 7.0 being neutral.

Lynn

Yes, rugosas and roses with multiflora heritage can suffer iron deficiency chlorosis at around pH 6.8. You can acidify the soil around your rugosas with 4 oz plain sulfur per sq. yard. It takes months to work.

I have an inexpensive Rapi-test pH meter that works fine, as do litmus test strips. Home test kits sold in the US are not worth the money, as Strawberry says.

This post was edited by michaelg on Tue, Aug 6, 13 at 14:52

Hi Bart: I'll re-post the link to test your own soil for $1.50, cheap & fast with red-cabbage juice. It's very accurate, since you allow TIME for soil elements to interact with the red-cabbage, which has wider-range of colors than lichen (used in litmus paper).

Years ago I tested 1 tablespoon of coffee ground in red-cabbage juice. At first it was pinkish, but after 1/2 hour soaking it turned clear. Coffee ground is a buffer, net result of neutral pH. Same with organic potting soil.

However, the MiracleGro potting soil (green bag) remains pinkish, in accordance with their posted value of pH 6.5. MiracleGro Moisture Control potting soil (blue bag) is clear in red-cabbage test, neutral pH.

I noticed how Cantigny Rose park, 15 minutes from me, has pale and yellowish leaves on some of their roses. I tested 1/2 cup of their soil. It was pinkish for the first 10 minutes ... I thought it was slightly acidic. Then I waited for another 1/2 hour, red-cabbage juice became clear, then same blue color as my amended alkaline clay. Their pH is around 7.5 versus my pH of 7.7.

Chicago Botanical Garden with 5,000 roses stated on their survey that their soil pH is 7.4 with composted leaves. They recommend fertilizing roses with SOLUBLE 20-20-20 three times a year for zone 5.

In alkaline soil, phosphorus works best in soluble form. Australian Agricultural Dept. posted info. on their research of granular vs. soluble phosphorus, google and you'll see.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cheapest way to test soil pH using red cabbage

Michaelg & Strawberryhill,

How can a person acidify a rugosa growing in a pot? I could not use Miracle gro potting mixes or soil, as I have read that rugosas will not appreciate the slow released fertilizer in M.G... The plant is in a pot with organic potting soil with no added fertilizers. My plant arrived with green leaves that are definitely on the lighter side for this plant, and the coloration has not changed. I planned to plant it in my garden soil in October. Could sphagnum peat moss lower the acidity level, or am I way off base with that? Any advice?

Bart, sorry to barge in like this, but it seems as though you may wish to grow rugosas too, and have alkalinity issues as well. I do not know if you purchase own root, which will arrive in a pot that could require acclimating prior to planting which may be useful for you as well.

Lynn

Lynn,
A lot of peat mixed in the soil will acidify it for some years, but the effect wears off eventually. The more permanent way to acidify soil is with sulfur. It is cheap and safe.

Have you checked the pH of the potting soil? Good potting mix is usually adjusted to around 6.5, which should be OK.

It doesn't sound like your rugosa is suffering much. You could switch to Miracid fertilizer (or whatever they call it this month). This doesn't actually acidify, but it has extra chelated iron in it.

Hi Lynn: Krista, zone 5a, has decades of growing hundreds of roses informed me that Rugosa is known as "beach rose", they do well in sandy soil and drought-tolerant. Rugosa hates my heavy clay because it's soaking wet compact soil.

The misconception is Rugosa do well in acidic soil. That's not true. Tessie (Melissa) wrote on how Rugosa are dark-green in her sandy soil and alkaline water. Rugosa needs fluffly soil for its wimpy roots. People root rose cuttings in sand, or fluffy pine-fines potting soil.

Peat-moss based potting soil is lousy for both growing roses from seeds and from cuttings. I tested it last year, the ones in peat-moss potting soil died (soaking wet on top, but dry at the bottom). The ones in pine-fines potting soil survived.

Eglantyne with Rugosa heritage gave me hell last year. I fixed my heavy clay with organic matter, peat moss, and added sulfur to bring the pH to 6. It hated that, became yellowish. Peat moss holds water ... Rugosa hates constant moisture, wimpy roots can't be choked too long, it'll turn yellowish.

I gave it acid fertilizer high in nitrogen, it dropped all the leaves ... then I read that Rugosa hates fertilizer, too late!
I gave it blood meal with iron, it grew new leaves, but refused to bloom (too much nitrogen). The second year with Krista's info, I fixed the hole with a bag of sand, $2.45, Eglantyne became dark green and gave me 2 awesome flush.

I repeat the same mistake with Baby Faurax (multiflora parentage). I planted in MiracleGro Moisture Control potting soil (blue bag), gave it acid fertilizer, it hated that acidic wet medium. Then I planted it next to the gutter where rain pours ... it was swimming in that pool ... became yellowish. What I should had done was to move Baby Faurax to the well-drained hill and fix the hole with a bag of coarse sand, like I did successfully with Eglantyne.

The breeder Robert Neil informed me from his over 100's degrees hot CA, with sandy alkaline soil that his Eglantyne does very well, that confirm my suspicion that it's not soil pH, but rather Rugosa prefers fluffy/sandy soil & needs oxygen for roots to green up.

eHow stated: "Soil microbes control the daily supply of nutrients, and in extreme cold or hot conditions, or if the soil is waterlogged, microbes slow down, which slows down nitrogen release. This causes the gardener to think there is a nitrogen deficiency" See below link:

We get flash flood in Chicagoland in spring, and my heavy clay becomes soaking wet ... everything becomes yellow, including the trees. But once the weather warms up and the soil dries out, plants become dark green. Water-logging here is the cause of yellowing, rather than nitrogen deficiency or high pH.

My soil is tested high in organic matter, and nitrogen deficiency is never a problem in alkaline clay. However, I noticed that calcium sulfate helped my roses to utilize the nitrogen in the soil better. Calcium regulates osmotic pressure in cell-walls, for better water and nutrients uptake.

Here is a link that might be useful: Yellowing and too much nitrogen

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Aug 6, 13 at 17:22

Michael and Strawberry Hill, I must call the nursery to determine the pH for their ogranic potting soil. I add soil sulfur to the bottom of all beds or holes and mix it with our very alkaline soil.

This rugosa was received from R.U. in a one gallon pot during July. It is going in the one strip of bed in my yard that has clay soil instead of sandy soil. My raised bed is primarily sand with very little organic matter; the cheap way out for the landscapers who created the bed. I am thinking of adding the sand from that raised bed, maybe mixed with some peat, a little compost, and soil sulfur at the bottom of the hole for the rugosa when I plant it in the ground. What do you think?

Michaelg, so you think the problem with the rugosa could be a need for fertilizer. The only thing I have given it is very diluted fish emulsion. Is Miracid extremely mild as I have read that rugosas do not like fertilizers.

Lynn

Hi Lynn: Here's the info. from Spring Valley Roses:

"One of the most important thing to know about Rugosa roses is, in our experience, they can't tolerate liquid chemical fertilizers. Rugosas will often drop all their leaves (defoliate) if you spray or feed them with liquid chemical fertilizers, like Miracle Gro. We get lots of calls from people who tell us that their Rugosa's leaves turned yellow and then fell off. Our first question always is, "Did you give them a liquid chemical fertilizer?" The answer so far has always been "yes." Then we tell them not to ever do that again, and that their rose will recover. Even with organic liquid fertilizers, Rugosas can be sensitive to a sudden dose of nitrogen, especially when applied to dry soil. So, always, always make sure you apply liquid fertilizers to wet soil, not dry soil. Water first, then fertilize. This is a good thing to practice for all plants -- water first, then fertilize.

Other than their sensitivity to chemical fertilizers, Rugosas are really tough roses. They have the best winter hardiness, next to species roses that are indigenous to cold climates. Most are very winter hardy, suffering no cane dieback even to -40 below! However, there are always a few exceptions. Some can handle -50 degrees, and others will have dieback at only -20 degrees.

Rugosa roses are very drought and salt tolerant. This is because Rugosas evolved along ocean shorelines where they were exposed to sandy, dry soil and salt spray. This tolerance is great for those who want to place a hedge of roses next to a road that gets salted in the winter."

**** From Strawberryhill ****

Eglantyne with Rugosa heritage did well when I gave it gypsum and a tiny bit potassium (sulfate of potash) ... dark green leaves and pumped out gorgeous big blooms (I posted pics. in English Roses Forum). I give Eglantyne zero fertilizer besides the above.

Here is a link that might be useful: Spring Valley Roses on Rugosa

Strawberryhill,

The rugosa is already in a one gallon pot. I thought adding a little peat to the top, as there is room, hoping that via my every other day watering, would deliver its acid into the organic potting soil, and reduce the level of acidity overall prior to planting it in a couple of months or so. But, pr Michael, the potting soil could already rate a 6.5pH, but the leaves are a lighter green; unlike what I have seen for Therese Bugnet. I must check with the nursery as I used up all I had a couple of weeks ago.

Here in Vegas, everything is watered prior to fertilizing; we amend, amend, amend and soil sulfur is added to planting areas often by the pound (s); it is almost a fundamental for us. In addition, we add about a cup or two of soil sulfur to each rose bush annually as the water is alkaline too and dealing with the soil pH is never ending.

Many years ago I was a member of the local rose society; which had an almost exclusive focus on moderns like Hybrid Teas etc., grown or Dr. Huey root stock. I grew over 150 roses at that time. Now it is two homes, over a decade, another garden, plus my new shift toward an abundant mix of OGR's, Austin's , shrubs roses and growing little bands.

Although some aspects of growing are basic, an entire new realm of learning has been required for these classes of roses.

The members on this forum have and continue to be gracious and beyond helpful:)

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Tue, Aug 6, 13 at 18:28

Hi Lynn: I don't know about your soil nor climate so I don't advise people what to do. I only share my mistakes and speak for myself, and never for others. What works for me may not work for someone else.

My mistakes made in my pot ghetto:

1) put sticky stuff on top, such as alfalfa meal and flax meal (failed experiment!). That gunk up and blocked out oxygen to roots below. Duchess de Rohan became yellow immediately, until I scraped the sticky gunk on top. It went from very yellow leaves, to dark green leaves with 4 fat buds with gypsum, some vinegar, and potassium in the water. See earlier link on how gypsum greened up lawn.

2) A known fact: peat moss ON TOP blocks out water from penetrating deep below. I saw that with the peat-based potting soil. A guy in Soil Forum solved that by mixing peat moss and coarse sand, then put that on top of his alkaline clay. Peat moss is wet and acidic, great for fungal germination.

3) Best success in making leaves dark green on multiflora and rugosa-parentage: Put pine bark (pH 4.5) on top, doesn't gunk up. Plus 1 tablespoon of vinegar per 2 gallons of tap water (pH 8) .... leaves becomes dark green immediately.

4) I got some rock-hard limestone clay. Put sulfur on top takes 6 months for that to become soften. Pour vinegar on top takes less than a week .. cheaper than sulfur.

5) I don't put sulfur around rose bush .... did plenty of experiments which they broke out in black spots when I put: rotten tomatoes, acid fertilizer, sulfur, cocoa mulch (pH 5.6). I find that putting vinegar in water is most effective. I keep the surface dry and alkaline, that way fungi can't germinate.

Mary Magdalene broke out in mildew when I put high nitrogen acid fertilizer around her, despite given tons of water. From that time on, I don't put sulfur around roses. Putting gypsum on top greens up things fast, without the risk of fungal germination. Gypsum is 17% sulfur and 22% calcium.

For my rock-hard clay, pH 7.7, sulfur, pine bark (pH 4.5), coarse sand, and granular gypsum is great in the planting hole, prepared 6 months in advance.

Why are Rugosa and multiflora dark-green in sandy and alkaline soil? White pines prefer acid. The one white pine with the most coarse sand added to my pH 7.7 clay is dark-green for the past 12 years. Two white pines died in wet clay. The other 4 are yellowish, with less sand.

There's a process called "Acid phosphatase", most efficient with roots in sand. Roots in clay are less efficient, and extra acid doesn't help. That's why folks root cuttings in sand or fluffy potting soil, and NOT clay.

I put tons of sulfur, iron, plus acid fertilizer on my azaleas, they became more yellow. I put cocoa mulch (pH 5.6), it got worse since it gunked up, blocking oxygen to the roots. The azaleas that I dug up and fixed with peat moss died. The ones that are green were fixed with coarse sand. Roots secret acid best in silicate, or sand. Sand is loose, thus allows more oxygen for green-up.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Aug 6, 13 at 20:06

strawberryhill,

What exactly is a pot ghetto? I have about 15 own root roses (bands and one gallon recent arrivals) on my covered patio; some in a wagon. It is temporary, but I would say it looks like a little pot ghetto right now:)

I am awaiting soil results for the area that my rugosa will be planted which should guide me in the correct direction.

I grow one plant prominently in a pot; so it really is not my forte; and that iceberg is going in the ground this Fall. But I have all of these own root babies, and while they are there, I am trying to learn as much as can to make them as healthy as possible prior to being planted in my garden:)

You are soooo correct in that every garden/climate soil is different. I have never seen black spot ( likely too dry for it to thrive), we do not have Japanese Beetles, nematodes, rarely see P.M., but we have summer heat aphids during the spring and spider mites when it becomes hot:(

The regular use of soil sulfur and working it into the soil around roses is standard protocol here; recommended by the rose society here, the University Extensions, and I have done it for over a decade.

With the amount of watering we do; one would be hard pressed to find a home that does not have drip irrigation on a timer. People standing out watering plants; I cannot remember the last time I have seen that occur. If they did; their system must have been broken.

Lynn

Hi Lynn: My pot ghetto ranged from 20+ last year down to 10 now. Sulfur gunks up on top in my heavy clay, can't travel down the root zone (esp. when I bury root balls 5" below soil level). Soluble fertilizer travels down the heavy clay better.

Sulfur goes down loamy and sandy soil better than my rock-hard clay. I get rain, pH 5.6 ... so my clay soil can be neutral as long as I don't water with tap water, pH 8.

In the link with the pdf file on how gypsum greened up lawn, here's some excerpts: "Research at Texas A & M showed that calcium stimulated ammonium absorption in plants by as much as 100% ... improved nitrogen applied."

"Application of calcium sulfate to silica sands revealed 22% increase in clipping weight of Kentucky bluegrass, and 32% increase in clipping of creeping bent grass the 1st year. Research at Penn State also showed clipping of fescue increased with the use of gypsum in heavy clay".

"Use of water high in bicarbonates cause the grass to turn yellow due to iron chlorosis. Bicarbonates are toxic to root growth causing less root growth and reduced nutrient uptake. Calcium sulfate reacts with the bicarbonates, typing them up, and increase calcium availability.

If the pH is above 8, calcium sulfate will lower the pH by reducing the level of carbonates and bicarbonates. The sulfur in calcium sulfate will increase uptake of iron, manganese, zinc, and phosphorus."

The above explains why the roses in partial shade which I don't water with my tap water are so healthy. Paul Neyron and Comte de Chambord have a reputation of blackspots, but they are 100% clean in my alkaline clay, watered with rain water, pH 5.6, which unlocks phosphorus, potassium, and calcium from my clay.

The roses that got watered with tap water have a bit of BS in humid weather. Putting vinegar in the tap water made it worse with black spots, so I'll use gypsum to lower my tap water, pH 8. As the pH decreases, potassium and calcium go down. The bicarbonates in the tap water also hurt root growth and increase disease susceptibility by binding with potassium in the soil.

EarthCo. the soil testing company, stated in their booklet that 1/3 of soil tested are deficient in potassium, and alkaline soil are often deficient in phosphorus, necessary for root growth and flowering.

Here is a link that might be useful: Calcium sulfate to green up lawn

Strawberry, I had almost 100 show azaleas in pots and they do prefer some sand in the mix. The azalea specialty nursery above Pasadena uses sandy loam+sand+perlite+peat moss to pot the azaleas that they send out all over the world. They suggested I use some redwood compost in my big pots because it lasts a long time. But they have a well with more neutral water than the alkaline city water. On the fruit forum, they are mixing battery acid into water to water the blueberries with ( the same acid level as a cup of strong coffee ) I haven't done that yet but sooner or later watering with alkaline water messes up that acidic potting soil you worked so hard to make. The smaller the pot, the faster it happens. If you have lots of plants, vinegar gets expensive so they are using battery acid and making big batches of acidic water.

My eglantyne is on Dr. Huey and I tried for a sandy version of my clay soil. So far so good. I thought an own root version would be chlorotic for me. I am sure that this rose is much better own root on acidic soil. Maybe I will try one in a pot and compare. Mary rose was superior as an own root in a pot with acidic soil as was WShakesp. 2000 compared to my Dr. Huey copies. The own roots threatened to die of chlorosis in my alkaline clay and water. As far as Eglantyne is growing- No diseases yet and she is sending up two big canes in her second year.

I loved rugosa roses but both died away in my alkaline soil before I knew what was going on. In a pot, I would beware of alkaline water over long periods for sure.

Strawberryhill,

Based upon my soil tests for another part of the yard, it was definitely low in P and K; I have to find the report as for all intents in purposes, one was almost non-existent.

There is a cocktail that has been recommended and I used for years that includes soil sulfur, cottonseed meal, and superphosphate or triple super-phosphate in specific doses. We use epsom salt on our roses too. Chelated iron is also always required at some point. I am hoping that my new reports will help me to down size some of this amending; I know as time progresses things will improve in this newer garden.

We have plenty of sunshine, gypsum, sandy soil ( good drainage) and that is about it without amending. Compost, it is one of our best friends here:)

Hi Kittymoonbeam: I appreciate the info. you gave very much, since we both have alkaline clay soil and alkaline water.

Hi Lynn: I'll buy fish bone meal and will test that in the planting hole mixed with sulfur. Bone meal lasts for 3 years, versus 1 year for superphosphate. I agree that Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) is great for sandy soil ... my clay soil is tested exceedingly high in magnesium, so I don't use that stuff.

Peat moss glues up with my clay soil, but it's GREAT for sandy soil. The Columbus Park of Roses in Ohio with 11,000 rose bushes stated how they fixed their soil "The entire area of 13 acres had sandy loam topsoil to a depth of 11 ­ 15 inches ... All beds were excavated to a depth of 24 inches. The existing soil was removed and mixed with imported peat moss and commercial fertilizer."

Plantation brand molasses has 17% potassium, 20% calcium, and 20% chelated iron. It's sold for less than $5 per 1 pint, or 16 Fl. Oz at my local Fruitful Yield Health Food Store. My hubby got the "Tree of Life" brand for $1 less, comparable nutrients, but I told him he should had gotten the Plantation brand (there was only 1 left).

There's a site that discussed the chelating action of molasses, so I use molasses as the binding agent to deliver nutrients to my roses. Molasses is quite sticky, great for sandy soil ... not sure if it's good for my clay, so I only use that in pots. Jude the Obscure as own-root band loves that stuff, but Sharifa Asma (Rugosa-heritage) hates that stuff.

Roses are all different from each other. Romantica roses don't like sulfur, but most Austins bloom more with added sulfur to my alkaline clay. Now I use Encap sulfur, gives 11% calcium, plus 49% sulfur (composed of 54% gypsum). Last year I used Epsoma sulfur, which releases 30% sulfur, but doesn't list calcium.

I would be scared of making acid water with battery acid! Holy cow.

Vinegar is about $2.50 for 2 gallons at costco. For the small amount you need to water a rose plant that will last a long time.

I enjoy the fruit forum, but there are some good ideas and truly know a lot and then there are some people that feel like they know it all and have some pretty interesting ideas...some times you have to take it with a grain of salt.

Khalid in Pakistan (English Roses Forum) uses sulfuric acid for his pH over 8 ... he has a large land. I used at least 4 gallons of vinegar to break up rock-hard clay ... that stuff is too weak. Parts of my clay are like cement, neither sulfur granules nor vinegar worked.

Hi Lynn: Peat moss acidifies soil much longer, due to buffering property of organic matter. Also Columbus Rose Park mixed that into their sand. You are right that sulfur needs to be applied yearly, gets neutralized by alkaline tap water. The superphosphate gets expensive applied yearly, so I'll test bone meal in the hole, since I want deeper pink color.

Aluminum sulfate acidifies quickly, and is used to shift bloom color to blue range. There's the danger of aluminum toxicity from build-up, so I'll use as soluble only to get the blue color.

Iron sulfate is known to burn roots, and it was a disaster when I tested it. Molasses with a bit of vinegar works too well, and darkened Sharifa Asma's leaves too much.

Strawberryhill, bone meal is a no-no for us because our pH is above 7.0. And our water is about 7.3, but I need to check it again. How does fish bone meal differ from bone meal?

The idea of molasses is interesting; but I just think every ant in the neighborhood will migrate to my yard if I used it.

Battery Acid, whoa... I would try vinegar but am not brave enough to play around with battery acid.

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 1:06

Wow,21 replies over night! Thank you, all, especially Strawberry for her patience with me. I'll keep my eyes open for red cabbage and will try that test. I'm glad I didn't buy another commercial soil-test kit last time I was in the US; money thrown away, apparently!
Whwn I have time, I'll have to read this whole thread and all the stuff about rugosas. Mainly, I'm curious, because I'd like to know just why these were such a SHOCKING failure for me! I tried two: a potted Roseraie deL'Hay from Barni and a bare-root Austin hybrid, Wild Edric.The potted RdL'H was very robust, out-growing it's pot like mad, doing fine-until I planted it in my garden. It did nothing for a while, then began dwindling,I moved it adding peat, sand,etc but it did not improve at all,was clearly dying, so I sp'd it. Wild Edric was basically the same -and I DID try to acidify the soil according to a recipe given by the scientific Taddy on the Peter Beales forum. The funny thing is, at Rose Barni, in near-by Pistoia, their rugosas look fine,whereas at an equally near-by shopping center, where they attempted the "care-free rugosa hedge",the plants looked more or less like they did for me.Also, I have for many years wondered why around here,you NEVER SEE ANY AZALEAS RHODODENDRONS, OR CAMELLIAS GROWING IN THE GROUND IN GARDENS ! it's not that it's too cold for them; my dad had azaleas at his house in Maryland, which is about zone 7, whereas here it's probably zone 8. Around Lake Como in the north of Italy, you saw 'em all over, and a friend who lives in nearby Florence can grow them!!! so I am very curious! Actually,I don't mind not being able to grow the rugosas,since there are so many other fine roses that I can grow, but I wouldn't mind an azalea or two for the shady areas of my garden. But I'm afraid it'd just be money thrown away. I think a lot of the water in Italy is "calcareo", which I assume translates as alkaline and calcium-ridden- You have to put an anti-calcium build-up tablet in the machine every time you do a wash,for example. But my garden has to rely on rain for watering, so I don't know. Gotta get me some red cabbage, tho it may have to wait until winter,I don't know if I could find it now...bart

Hi Bart: The calcium hydroxide in tap water is unstable and binds with phosphorus in the soil. The calcium from gypsum is different, it's in a form that is readily used by plants, esp. in a solution.

I begin to question granular gypsum since that stuff gunks up on top of my clay, even after tons of spring rain. I see instant green-up with soluble gypsum (dissolve easily in my pH 8 tap water). Soluble gypsum is sold cheap at Kelp4less $8 for 5 lbs., free shipping.

Here's the % of calcium in different forms, the calcium hydroxide in tap water is NOT stable, so I don't include in the data below:

Gypsum provides 22% calcium, 17% sulfur, with salt index of 8.1.

Wood ashes provides 20% calcium, 2% phosphorus, 7% potassium, magnesium, and ALL TRACE ELEMENTS, plus caustic at high pH over 10. Caution: burns roots. My Mom put wood ash on top of a thick layer of leaves and let the rain and the snow neutralize its high pH.

Dolomitic Limestone provides 25% calcium and 10% magnesium, salt index 0.8, some sandy soil lacks magnesium

Calcitic limestone provides 36% calcium, inert unless rain water (pH 5.6) breaks it down, salt index 4.7

Colloidal rock phosphate provides 19% calcium and 18% phosphate.

Hard rock phosphate provides 48% calcium and 30% phosphate.

Superphosphate provides 20% calcium, 12% sulfur, and 20% phosphorus, with salt index 7.8

Bone meal NPK 1-11-0, provides 11% phosphorus and 24% calcium.

Hi Lynn: As you can see from the data I compiled, superphosphate has almost double the phosphorus of bone meal, but bone meal lasts 3 times longer. I tested bone meal on top of geraniums with our rain water pH 5.6, and the colors were out of this world - vibrant awesome.

I'll buy fish bone meal from Kelp4Less because it's cheap and free shipping. Two experiments: one mixed with sulfur in the planting hole, the other mixed with cocoa mulch (pH 5.6) to mulch on top. Will see if that deepens my pinks.

So far no ants in the pots watered with molasses & gypsum.

I don't fertilize these bushes for the past 12 years, but there were tons of ants in my Rose of Sharon blooms and large peonies blooms. Those very double-blooms contain lots of natural sugar, and ants love that.

CAUTION ABOUT MOLASSES: Jude the Obscure as a tiny band likes that stuff, so does Ducchess de Rohan (hybrid perpetual), but some roses hate that stuff: Sharifa Asma, Yves's child, and Gina's rose.

No problems when I diluted the thick molasses in vinegar, and used less than 1 tablespoon per 2-gallon bucket for my water pH 8. But my husband bought a new molasses with 20% iron, 15% calcium, and 10% magnesium .... I poured less than a spoon of thick molasses in 2-gallon of water and watered Gina's rose. Immediate browning of leaves' margin, very much like the time I put iron sulfate on my azaleas. That concentrated molasses high in iron was too much. Iron is known to stain side walk.

Molasses NPK is 1-0-5 with potash, iron, sulfur, and other trace elements. Here's an excerpt from the link below:

"Schultz® Garden Safe 3-1-5 Liquid Plant Food is a form molasses derived from sugar beet processing ... the fine print on a Garden Safe bottle where it says - “Contains 3.0% Water Soluble Nitrogen, 1.0% Available Phosphate, 5.0% Soluble Potash - derived from molasses.”

Here is a link that might be useful: Molasses and plants

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 14:25

Bart,
As I think you have figured out, rugosas failed because you have calcic (aka limestone, chalk) soil with high pH. And for this reason, you have no use whatsoever for gypsum. If you want to check your pH, I suspect a pH meter or litmus test strips will be more reliable than red cabbage juice.

Lynn,
I am glad you have ordered a soil test. No one should ever attempt a pH adjustment without knowing what the pH already is. And people should use the established horticultural practices for adjusting pH--sulfur and limestone are cheap and reliable amendments whose effect is known exactly and which can be applied in precisely the right amount to get the desired adjustment. If you make a mistake while messing around with vinegar and battery acid, you would kill the plants (vinegar in strong concentrations is a herbicide).

It doesn't do any good to put sulfur (or anything else, probably) in the bottom of the hole. It should be mixed into the soil before planting, if possible. The feeder roots of roses are quite shallow and most will be in the upper 10" or less.

I didn't mean that your rugosa needed fertilizer, but that it needed iron, and Miracid is a convenient source of iron, assuming you would be fertilizing anyway. I must say that rugosas grow perfectly well in heavy soil here if it is on the acid side, and that I fertilized rugosas regularly but lightly when I had them, with no problems. Rugosa foliage won't tolerate foliar fertilizer, but their roots use exactly the same nutrients as other roses. I wonder if the story about "liquid fertilizer" was based on foliar fertilizing. There is nothing specially "hot" about liquid fertilizer applied to the soil. If NPK is similar, it has the same effect as granular fertilizer or organic fertilizers that contain some fast nitrogen.

You may have a hard time succeeding with rugosas in the hot desert with naturally alkaline soil and water, but good luck.

Michaelg, I know....what was I thinking, ( well, I fell for the beauty). I will give it the good ole "college try", thank goodness I only have one rugosa:)

My water is in the 7.7-7.8 pH range. The other issue is the lack of nutrients in my soil too. I always add soil sulfur to the bottom of the hole and mix some with the compost and other goodies. I could very likely be using the wrong amount; likely not enough, and believe the soil report will give me the information I need.

What can gardeners do to deal with alkaline water? All of my plants are watered via drip lines connected to a timer.

Lynn

Lynn,

You would just check the pH every year or two and see if more sulfur is needed because of the alkaline water. The effect of the water is gradual and usually not very strong. Sulfur can be added from the surface. Remember, though, it takes months for sulfur to affect the pH of the soil. Also routinely using a fertilizer containing ammonium sulfate can be enough to counteract the alkaline water.

Glancing back at the thread topic, if the soil test shows excess salts and sodium, your garden might be one that would benefit from applications of gypsum. Western river water is often high in sodium bicarbonate. Sodium is non-nutritive and sodium salts in the soil can make it harder for plants to take up water. Using gypsum causes some of the sodium to leach out whenever there is abundant water.

Hi Lynn: With regard to your question of drip-line irrigation,

Jeri Jennings wrote on how she put sulfur by the drip line. The Encap Sulfur I used on top didn't have much effect on Deep Purple (I transplanted recently), nor on Annie L. McDowell (prefers acid) .... but when I put SOLUBLE gypsum around Deep Purple, and Annie .... immediate green up, and breaking out in buds.

I already posted a picture of Lawrence of Arabia lush and shiny leaves with soluble gypsum. I pinched off 4 buds, and left one bloom to enjoy. That was bought from RU end of June, all yellowish. L. of Arabia, or King Arthur, has a fantastic fruity scent!

Below is Duchess de Rohan bought from RU end of June, which I chopped down to 6" when I potted it, since it had yellowish leaves and weak stems. I put SOLUBLE gypsum in the pot, and its leaves became green immediately, plus breaking out in 4 buds. Picture taken today.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 16:24

Michaelg, gypsum is one thing I would suspect the test will indicate I have an abundance of. Las Vegas is one of the major producers of gypsum; it is all over the place here, and from what I have read, rare to find lacking in our soil.

Based upon the information you provided, it is likely that I just need to be more patient with the soil sulfur, as this is my second season with this garden. My other gardens were created with my close supervision, and I made sure that compost, soil sulfur etc. was added to ready the soil prior to anything being planted. My current garden, well it was just neglected for years.

Thank you for all of your help:)

Lynn

Hi Lynn: I'm next to a limestone quarry, and within walking distance from a gypsum manufacturing plant. When my neighbor said he had blossom-end-rot on his tomatoes, and had to use calcium ... I thought he was nuts.

Then I received my soil test report from EarthCo. that I need to add gypsum to my soil. Today I went out to pick the 6 tomatoes in the new bed, half of them had blossom-end rots, I threw away at least 10 tomatoes.

The 6 tomatoes planted in the back yard, which I put granular and soluble gypsum, have ZERO blossom end rots. My soil is limestone clay, but the calcium is tied up with phosphorus.

Ball potting soil is the only one with gypsum, MiracleGro potting soil does not have gypsum. The lime added to tap water is calcium hydroxide, very unstable, and binds with phosphorus once watered in. My minor is chemistry, but I double-checked with the chemist in the soil forum as to the mobility of limestone on top, he said zero mobility. He also endorsed the soil-test based on red-cabbage juice.

Gypsum, or calcium sulfate is in a form that plants can utilize. Calcium is essential to plant growth, without it everything is stand-still. Now I got buds from Comte de Chambord and Paul Neyron by giving them soluble gypsum. Second flush from Paul Neyron is a miracle!

EarthCo., or www.drgoodearth.com is quite accurate. For $20, they give soil pH, potassium, phosphorus, calcium, magnesium, and organic matter. For $30, they test all, plus trace elements.

Here is a link that might be useful: EarthCo., or Drgoodearth soil test

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 17:35

Hi Strawberryhill,

I have been in the process of re-landscaping my yard and had a portions of it tested already; the gypsum/ calcium sulfate is present at more than adequate levels and the sodium levels were ok.

The issue for me has been, I have different things going on in one plot of land and was talking to my hubby about three weeks ago and we decided to re-landscape the front yard; now a new area to test. In October I will be planting in a bed on the side of my house that unlike every other area in my yard clearly has clay soil; I am concerned about the drainage; and am awaiting info. for that area. I agree with you that not only can levels vary in one part of a neighborhood, but I have variances in my own yard; but based upon some basic information from the Uni. Cooperative Extension, mapping etc., I would be surprised if gypsum was lacking; what is going on with the sodium, that is another potential monkey wrench in this scenario.

My water is pH 7.6- 7.8... so it is alkaline but compost and soil sulfur among other things are my best gardening friends.

All of my bands and 1 gallons are in pots and I am just awaiting the root growth and health to put them in my soil; hopefully by October; growing plants in pots is not my forte.

Thank you for the recommendation to use ball. If all goes well I will likely receive more bands at some point and if there is an issue with gypsum it could definitely be useful:)

During my first couple of years of college my major was bio-chem, then I decided that science relative to human anatomy etc. was more interesting, and then gravitated toward and completed a dual undergrad. in Criminology and Psychology. Yes, I was confused a confused 17 year old....and while now, having a family has made stability necessary, I am already planning for a shift once the kids go off to college; there is still some existentialist in me.

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 20:23

Well, this sure is interesting! I wish all this stuff was easily available in Italy! The people that sell the gypsum fertilzer do soil testing,as a matter of fact,but the instructions of how to take the samples seemed pretty intimidating, and I have no idea of the cost; since the company is far away,I'd have to pay the postage, too,and now is not the moment for extra expenditures for me! so I'll be trying the red cabbage method. However, I'm happy to see that wood ashes are so good to use; I do use a lot of them. Fact is, my land was so severely neglected for so long and it's only started being a garden in the last 15 years when I got started, and only in the last few have I really started working on the soil,so it's reassuring to hear that time is an important factor, too. regards, bart

Bart, You should not apply wood ash without a soil test. It is a powerful alkalizer and you already have alkaline soil. Wood ash contains calcium, magnesium, potassium and other metallic cations in hydroxide form. Mixed with water it forms caustic lye. It can be a useful fertilizer/amendment on very acid soils, especially sandy ones.

Please understand, there is no substance that is "good for roses." What is good to apply depends entirely on what is already in the soil. You don't know what is in your soil, and you don't plan to get a soil test, so you should proceed cautiously. If you are not having any problems growing the plants you want, the soil is basically OK. You can make things worse by adding "hot" materials like wood ash.