My soil pH is 7.7 .. I was concerned that the shell lime added by the stable to their horse manure might make my soil more alkaline. I asked the chemist in the soil forum if lime is mobile, he said, "No, lime stays put where applied."

Hydrated Lime in tap water is unstable. It binds with potassium, phosphorus, and iron. When I water roses with pH 8 tap water, roses are pale, and don't bloom. I have to fix my water by adding gypsum (calcium sulfate) which neutralizes the bicarbonates in tap water to releases nutrients.

Hydrated lime quickly raises soil pH. Lime exists in many forms, and the mobility varies. Here's the info. on lime, slow or fast means the rate of pH increase:

Equivalent Calcium Carbonate pH change

Dolomitic Limestone 70-95 **** Slow Has magnesium

Ground limestone 70-95 ***** Slow

Hydrated Lime 140 ****** Fast Hazardous & caustic

Pelletized Limestone 70-95 ***** Fast More expensive.

Hydrated lime is used for its anti-fungal properties. Here's an excerpt from link below: "18.Food preservation. Hydrated lime is also called pickling lime because it can be used in pickling. Furthermore, hydrated lime has great antimicrobial/antifungal and preservative properties.

Hydrated lime is an active ingredient in the Bordeaux mixture used by vineyards to fight fungus.

Here is a link that might be useful: The many uses of lime

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Oct 24, 13 at 9:36

one of the reasons I lost a few roses during the past 3 years, I think my 2 cats and cats in the neighbourhood, have over fertilized the backside shady area closer to the fence on the left side, neighbour's 12ft trees also contribute to the shady area which roses need more of Sun time during the day. I do appreciate your insight to the scientific analysis & improvement of soil conditions related to the healthy growth of roses. The alkaline clay soil in the backyard does need gypsum to loose up & it will help me to follow your guideline to balance the nutrients for the roses.

Hi seaweed: I agree that gypsum is great to break up hard clay in the planting hole, but too much chemicals on the surface can burn roots, and kill beneficial surface soil bacteria, which encourages pathogenic fungal growth.

I planted 2 roses yesterday, bought as band-size end of July. Their roots grew to be solid 2-gallons root ball. They were fertilized with diluted molasses, potassium from banana peels, and a tiny bit of gypsum. I used 1/2 tablespoon per 2 gallons of water.

Gypsum worked great when I diluted a tiny bit of gypsum (calcium sulfate) to lower my pH 8 tap water .... but I get tired of doing that, so I got this clever idea of dumping 1/2 cup of gypsum around each bush .. rust & mildew & black spots breaking out. Too much calcium drives down potassium (necessary for disease-prevention). Plus gypsum is caustic, and kills off beneficial bacteria that suppress pathogenic fungi.

Total disaster: acid burn, and blooms became almost white & faded & lost scent. Salt-index of gypsum is 8, but 1 lb. of gypsum is equivalent to 5.38 lbs. of sulfur (see link below). Knowing that too much calcium drives down potassium, I dumped potassium sulfate (salt index 43) ..... more salt and acid damage.

Luckily I did that to a handful of my roses, and not 55. Lesson well learned: Organics is best, can't overkill on that stuff. Even then I screwed up: Last fall I dumped too much alfalfa meal in the pot of Comte de Chambord .. it gunked up on top, choking Comte into chlorosis. Then we got constant rain, and that acidic & sticky alfalfa hosted pathogenic fungi really well ... enough for giant black spots on Comte.

Last fall I was so disgusted and planted Comte in the ground, with nothing but my alkaline clay, pH 7.7 ... Comte is still clean today, as long as I don't dump stuff on top to mess up my soil's balance of microbes.

Here is a link that might be useful: UCdavis on gypsum and changing soil pH

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Oct 24, 13 at 9:42

I bought a 25 lbs. bag of dry chicken manure at Menards for $8.99. It's Chickity-Do-Do, with NPK 5 / 3 / 2.5 with 9% calcium. It's stinky. The recommended dose is 1 lb. per 100 sq. feet.

I checked on chicken manure and found this quote in Peter-Beales Rose Forum, by Stephanie: "I had to resurrect a garden where the good owner overdid it and ‘fried’ the roses. That was a spectacular fertilizer burn! She did not give much of the stuff but over time it was just too much for her roses."

Chicken manure has 10% salt, and is the most salty among manures. Fish meal has from 2% salt (Herring), to the Blue Whiting at 4%. Both are stinky. Fresh chicken manure burns. Here's a quote from Farm Forum:

•Posted by carmen_grower_2007 4/5 (My Page)

"Put it in a pile outdoors and let it sit for a year to completely compost with the moisture of snow and rain. I used bedding fresh as a mulch and absolutely nothing grew in that area for over a year. If you took it straight from the chicken coop, there wasn't enough moisture in it to let it compost completely."

Below is an excellent site on chicken manure such as it's alkaline, fresh manure burns, and it's higher in nitrogen than other manures.

Here is a link that might be useful: Royal Horticultural Society on Chicken manure

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Oct 24, 13 at 11:48

Since my clay soil is tested less available in phosphorus due to high pH 7.7, I use Jobes' Organic Tomato Fertilizer inside the planting hole, once the pH is brought down. Its NPK is 2-7-4. Info for Jobes' organic tomato fertilizer:

Derived from: Feather Meal, Bone Meal, Composted Poultry, Manure, Sulfate of Potash. Also Contains Non-Plant Food Ingredients:

Bacteria (CFU's/ lb.) : Contains 12,606 colony forming units (CFU's) of: Arthrobacter Globiformis, Arthrobacter simplex, azotobacter Chroococcum, Azobacter paspali, Azosprillum lipoferum, Strepomyces griseoflavis and Pseudomonas fluorescens.

*** compare to Epsoma tomatoe-tone, with NPK 3-4-6:

Feather meal, poultry manure, cocoa meal, bone meal, alfalfa meal, green sand, humates, sulfate of potash, and gypsum. It has a different set of microbes than Jobes', see below for Epsoma's list of microbes:

I once had a Heirloom hybrid tea (grafted on Dr. Huey), inside a composted pine fines potting soil, with 1 cup of Epsoma Holly-tone (with sulfur) ... the color was deep purple, very gaudy. I find that the trace elements of composted pine fines shift the color to the blue range, and the trace elements in bone meal made the color deep and vibrant.

I tested SOLUBLE triple-superphosphate, NPK 0-52-0, on a few roses. I didn't see any improvement in color like with bone meal, but superphosphate turned my Stephen Big Purple into gaudy red, see below:

Here is a link that might be useful: Epsoma Tomatoe-Tone NPK 3-4-6

Less chemical fertilizer also means less watering. I found a great blog by Carolyn Parker in CA. Here's an excerpt on her page about drought-tolerant roses:

"They found that the sturdy once-blooming Gallicas, Albas and Centifolias did very well in drought conditions. However they were more interested in rebloomers like Old Blush.

They discovered that other China roses ��" Cramoisi Superieur, Hermosa, Matteo's Silk Butterflies ��" did very well with little water. They found that Tea roses ��" such as Duchesse de Brabant and Georgetown Tea ��" survived harsh conditions as well.

Dr. Steven George, an Extension horticulturist at Texas A&M University, took the search for hardy, drought-resistant roses a few steps further. In 1996, he began a scientific study that subjected 468 roses to extreme conditions. The roses were never fertilized, never sprayed, received no supplemental watering after the first year and were never pruned, other than to remove deadwood.

The winners

Eleven roses emerged as spectacular performers. They were introduced in 2002 as EarthKind roses. The first group included Sea Foam, Marie Daly, the Fairy, Caldwell Pink, Red Knock Out, Perle d'Or, Belinda's Dream, Else Poulsen, Carefree Beauty, Mutabilis and Climbing Pinkie."

Here is a link that might be useful: Roses and drought by Carolyn Parker in CA

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, May 4, 14 at 11:19

There's a severe drought in CA right now, and Las Vegas next. Found great suggestions in the Drought Forum, such as skip spring fertilizer (lush growth requires more water to support), plus use efficient drip-hose. See link below:

Here is a link that might be useful: Getting roses through a drought - Drought forum

Thank you, Seaweed, for the best bouquet of roses ever !! Thanks for identify the names of them. I love the big blooms like your Gemini, and the bi-color ones like Double Delight, Rainbow Sorbet, and Rock & Roll.

This past winter in my zone 5a was harsh. Most of my roses died down to 4", so I had to prune drastically. The roses in the low-land with the most water survived the winter well. The roses in the high-land, less water, will be late in sprouting, perhaps mid-June.

Less chemicals mean less salt, and better winter-survival. One rose-grower in zone 4 remarked that it's not the cold that kill roses, it's the drying out that kills. Two of my rhododendrons died this past winter, due to the salt used to de-ice my front walk.

Potassium chloride is used to de-ice frozen walkway. It has a high salt index of 116.2. That's the same stuff sold as Epsoma Potash, or Muriate of Potash, used in many commercial fertilizers. More chemical fertilizers mean less winter-survival for roses. The below link listed potassium chloride at an even higher salt-index of 120.

Here is a link that might be useful: Calculating salt index of chemical fertilizers

Our temp. reached 93 degree yesterday, June 10. A wise rose-grower in CA stated that she doesn't fertilizer after June. Here in my zone 5a we get hot & humid but have plenty of rain after June, so I used zero-salt fertilizer like alfalfa ... Did soak red-lava-rocks in bucket of water ... the water turned red. I used that to water my plants. Will report the result later.

Went to Menards yesterday, saw these ORGANIC fertilizer tablets, meant to be dissolve in water. They are huge tablets, only $3 per bottle. I checked the ingredients, and it listed: NPK of 5-8-5, with Brewer's Yeast, calcium phosphate, and muriate of potash. I would had bought that, except muriate of potash is the same as potassium chloride, with salt index 116.2 ... super high !! That's the same stuff we use to de-ice our icy sidewalks in the winter.

Cow-manure is high in salt, and inferior to alfalfa meal or hay (has no salt). Below pic. is what happened to my tomato when I mixed 1/2 cow-manure into my alkaline clay. That Menards cow-manure has lime added, so it's hardened, rather than fluffy. The result? stunt-growth, sulfur deficiency due to high pH, plus nitrogen deficiency: yellowing of lower leaves & stunt growth. Too much calcium drives down nitrogen. We have tons of rain for the past 2-months, it would be worse if we didn't have that much rain:

Below is a healthy tomato plant from last year's pics. I used TomatoTone NPK 3-4-6 in the planting hole, plus tea made from Pennington Alaska NPK 4-6-6 with kelp meal, thus the dark-green color of leaves:

Next year I'll put some Tone in our Tomato planting holes... Alfalfa Meal worked good for me when I tried it. I might try some Alfalfa Tea on the Tomatoes next year... Tone in the planting hole and Alfalfa Tea applied once in awhile... (I'll just make like 5 gallons of Tea...

Tomato-Tone never burn my plants like bone meal. Here's the ingredients in Rose-Tone and Tomato-Tone: " Hydrolyzed Feather Meal, Pasteurized Poultry Manure, Cocoa Meal, Bone Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Greensand, Humates, Sulfate of Potash, and Sulfate of Potash Magnesia."

Tomato-Tone also has gypsum added for extra-calcium.

I can't use bone meal or anything high in Phosphorus as our soil is already high in Phosphorus... I should not even be using the MG fertilizer but I'm using it in a small out of the way area so I thought I'd experiment.

The garden Tone I have here is 3-4-4 but I'll still try it as its for Vegetables...(Neighbor gave me a full new bag free...)

After that runs out then I'll try one of the other Tones...

http://www.espoma.com/product/garden-tone/

Bump up this thread to re-post the info. (begin of thread):

"They found that the sturdy once-blooming Gallicas, Albas and Centifolias did very well in drought conditions. However they were more interested in rebloomers like Old Blush.

They discovered that other China roses ��" Cramoisi Superieur, Hermosa, Matteo's Silk Butterflies ��" did very well with little water. They found that Tea roses ��" such as Duchesse de Brabant and Georgetown Tea ��" survived harsh conditions as well.

Dr. Steven George, an Extension horticulturist at Texas A&M University, took the search for hardy, drought-resistant roses a few steps further. In 1996, he began a scientific study that subjected 468 roses to extreme conditions. The roses were never fertilized, never sprayed, received no supplemental watering after the first year and were never pruned, other than to remove deadwood.

The winners

Eleven roses emerged as spectacular performers. They were introduced in 2002 as EarthKind roses. The first group included Sea Foam, Marie Daly, the Fairy, Caldwell Pink, Red Knock Out, Perle d'Or, Belinda's Dream, Else Poulsen, Carefree Beauty, Mutabilis and Climbing Pinkie."

Here is a link that might be useful: Roses and drought by Carolyn Parker in CA

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, May 4, 14 at 11:19

For salt index, watch out for bone-meal. One hot summer I topped my geraniums with bone-meal, resulting in deep & vibrant colors, but leaves were scorched & burnt. Those dozen geraniums refused to grow, then died in the heat.

I also killed a $30 rose gifted by a friend by putting bone meal in the planting hole .. too salty, with 300 ppm sodium plus 14% phosphorus and 23% calcium. Also sulfates is too high at 2,000 ppm .. that burns own-root roses' tender roots.

Re-post the info. about bone-meal from 2014:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/2133798/types-of-calcium-for-best-bloom-formation?n=5

As you can see in the below link, chemical analysis of bone meal showed measurement in ppm (1 milligram per kilogram soil (mg/kg) )

400 iron, 120 magnesium, 50 manganese, 300 sodium, 200 aluminum, 2,000 sulfates, 20 potassium, 100 zinc, and 400 chlorides.

The biggest portions are 23% calcium and 14% phosphorus ... both essential for root growth. Phosphorus mobility is a 1, compared to 10 for nitrogen. Thus phosphorus via bone meal is best in the planting hole, rather than on top. Studies showed that phosphorus applied on top, only move down 1 inches per year.

Drawback of bone meal? It can only be utilized when the pH is below 7. I already burnt plenty of plants when I tested bone meal in my pH 7.7 soil .... didn't work on top, nor in the planting hole.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ingredients in bone meal

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, Jul 4, 14 at 10:04

Due to high salt, chicken manure is best twice a year (with tons of rain) for cold zone. Best use chicken manure with lime or gypsum, due to a decrease in calcium thanks to the salt in chicken manure. An excerpt from below link:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969707005967

" Field experiments were conducted for six successive crops of Brassica Parachinensis to evaluate the possibility of secondary soil salinization by successive application of chicken manure (CM) and pigeon manure (PM) to a garden soil

After heavy rains during the last three crops, soil TSS was reduced considerably and pH showed a slight increase. Concentrations of Cl− and Mg2+ increased and Ca2+ decreased at the end of the experiment, all leading to changes in the ionic composition of soil salinity. Manure with higher ion concentrations appeared to play a more important role in affecting ionic composition of soil salinity. The results further suggest that even in a region with abundant rainfall like Guangzhou, there is still potential risk for secondary soil salinization when high rates of CM and PM are applied."

http://www.alcanada.com/index_htm_files/Fertilizer%20Salt%20Index.pdf

Above shows dolomite lime with salt index of 0.8, compared to 20% salt in manure with salt index of 112.7

Dolomite, 21.5% Ca, 11.5% Mg ..... 0.8 salt index

Manure salts, 20% .......................... 112.7 salt index

Straw: for chemical soluble I recently bought Magnum rose food. I don't like urea in it and . Besides that the list looks fine. Can u give me your thoughts on it? I will balance it with my organic fertilizers

Anna: I'm impressed with magnum rose food ever since Msdorkgirl in Hawaii posting pics. of Urban rose garden in Hawaii. She wrote "The Rose Garden Director uses a combination of stuff? MG, and the Magnum Rose Food as well as the Walmart Rose Food granular."

Urea, high in salt, is only 1%, potassium phosphate is recommended for low-salt formula. Acidic Sulfur at 8% is very good, that helps with alkaline-tap in CA, and deeper colors for roses. Very high in trace elements of iron and manganese. My verdict: way better than MG-soluble, thanks to higher sulfur, and higher trace elements.

Hawaii is a hot climate with lots of rain, but the colors are outstanding, see below thread with Magnum rose food and Walmart rose food granular:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/3180061/urban-garden-center-honolulu-hawaii?n=19

Wow that's a great link .

Sraw: I am also debading on Gypsum -soluble like I was doing or pallets. I am Alredy ahead of the next spring season. I will be transplanting my roses to the bigger pots plus new soil and amendments if needed.

Hi Straw, Very good thread on salt index of fertilizers. This is info that I can use when fertilizing my potted roses. In my new garden, with our deep sandy soil, salt flushes out quickly, so I'm not yet concerned with salt buildup. Maybe as I improve the composition of my soil, this will change.

We do some of our landscape work in the west costal town of Cedar Key. Lately the town was flooded during the hurricane with salty gulf water. Plants that were not killed outright, can sometimes be saved by flushing the soil with fresh water. We find roses are moderately tolerant of short term salt damage. Maybe flushing is something that will work, if too much salty fertilizer has been applied. When I talk of salt, I mean NaCl, like table salt. I'm not sure if roses are tolerant of other salts.

Another great thread Straw. Wonderful information about salt index of various synthetic fertilizers.

A question: Chicken manure has high salt index. When I use it in the compost along with guavas, banana peels, potato, cucumber peels, citrus, tea bags and egg shells, how much the decomposition process reduces the salt index?

best regards

Khalid: Organic matter high in potassium: banana peels, potato, citrus-rinds buffer the damage of salt. I wrote about the experiment on marathon runners: 1st group fed salt & high-potassium, 2nd group fed low-salt & low-potassium, 3rd group fed salt & low-potassium. The group with the lowest/best blood-pressure is with salt & high-potassium. I have a love affair with the salt-shaker, except I use "potassium chloride", rather than "sodium chloride", my blood pressure is 104/76, I'm 54.

I would place the salty chicken manure on-top of the compost heap. Rain will wash the salt downward. Phosphorus mobility is a 1, it will stay on top of the heap. Potassium mobility is a 3, it will move down somewhat. Nitrogen mobility is a 10, it moves all the way down (NOBLE plant foundation info.)

Salt mobility depends on the medium: it leaches out of sandy soil easily, but clay sol retains salt very well. As to a large compost heap like horse manure (taller than a 1-story house) .. the salt is at the bottom. One year I scraped the horse manure at the bottom and paid dearly for it: salt-damage was so bad, that no flushing can undo.

This year, I'm smarter ... I get the composted manure on top of the heap .. that's where the phosphorus & potassium reside. I won't touch the bottom of a compost heap, that's where the salt is.

Anna: Per your question of gypsum diluted to lower pH of tap-water, or gypsum on top, or gypsum mixed with potting soil? That depends on the rootstock or own-root. Comte de Chambord (grafted on mulftiflora) is wimpy in producing acid, so I mixed lots of gypsum in the hole .. and it loves that stuff. Same with wimpy own-roots, their alfalfa sprouts root become thicker & more solid if gypsum is mixed in the potting soil: 1/4 cup per 1 gallon of soil.

My cuttings produce thicker roots if gypsum is mixed in the rooting medium. Gypsum provides "free calcium" to form solid roots. As to Dr.Huey-rootstock, at first I thought that can't handle the acidity (17% sulfur) in gypsum, but even Double-Delight (grafted on Dr.Huey) does better with gypsum in the planting hole, than other roses (grafted on Dr.Huey) in clay without gypsum.

With Dr.Huey, I use much less gypsum than multiflora-rootstock.

I don't recommend gypsum on top unless one has tons of rain with wimpy-own-roots like Jude the Obscure that can't secrete acid on its own. Gypsum tends to gunk up on top, and can't move down.

Sulfate of potash dissolves easily in my pH 9 tap-water, but when I put gypsum in, it becomes a thick & whitish sludge in the bottle & can't even pour that out. White vinegar is too harsh for plants, so I use apple-cider vinegar to break up or "free up" the gypsum in the bottle. I use that to lower my high pH tap-water.

Blackstrap molasses has chelated iron & readily available calcium, phosphorus, and potassium. The only problem with molasses is too high iron. My "wholesome Organic" brand has 15% iron, 8% magnesium, 20% potassium, 10% calcium, and 10% vitamin B6, and zero salt.

'I don't recommend gypsum on top unless one has tons of rain with wimpy-own-roots like Jude the Obscure that can't secrete acid on its own. Gypsum tends to gunk up on top, and can't move down."

Thanks for this valuable information Straw. This is the mistake I did this spring. I put gypsum on the top and it became a hard solid and stayed like that for quite a few months. This time, I am doing to put it on top and do deep tilling so that it goes down and doesn't settle down at one place forming a solid mass.

Thank you Straw. I will stay with soluble gypsum, also great tip about the apple clider vinegar to dissolve it better.

Moved info. from another thread into here for HMF reference:

Since Khalid is getting 10.5" of rain in July, and 12.2" of rain in August, I re-post info. in 2013 on Frank Gatto's nursery. His nursery is in WA (cooler & high-rain climate) so Mr. Gatto uses the maximum dose for pots.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/2133004/has-anyone-used-rose-tone?n=19

I was googling "Healthy roses" and found this blog by Raft Island Roses Owner Frank Gatto with pics. of the most healthy roses! Here's a summary of his tips, most appropriate for acidic soil, cool & rainy PNW area:

"Five gallons per week per rose" is Gatto's advice. "Water deeply," he stresses.

For planting, Gatto mixes 50 percent native soil and 50 percent organic compost or good potting soil and adds a cup each of bone meal and soil sweetener (lime). He also gives established plants a cup of lime in March, for optimal soil pH.

Gatto advises giving roses small but frequent meals, as opposed to large amounts of fertilizer less often. He uses a balanced granular fertilizer with an N-P-K number no higher than 20 (such as 15-15-15), along with a blend of organic meals including alfalfa, cotton seed, fish, blood and kelp. "I give each one a handful (about a half a cup) every three weeks."

Besides his nursery, Frank Gatto has 300 roses in his yard, and 950 roses in his other house. He and his son breed 250 new roses.

Raft Island Rose Nursery's tips for healthy roses

**** From Straw: for my alkaline clay, I give 1/2 cup of lime in rainy spring for dark-green leaves roses, and 1/2 cup of gypsum for pale-leaves .. my roses are smaller own-roots so I use 1/2 the amount of calcium, necessary to make zillion petals.

Instead of Gatto's granular chemical fertilizer of NPK 15-15-15, I use SOLUBLE organic fertilizer NPK 4-3-2 with kelp, plus sulfate of potash every week, along with 1/2 cup organics like Tomato-Tone, or Pennington fish pellets NPK 4-6-6 every 3 weeks .. that's for high-heat & rainy weather.

I went through my camera directory from 2013 to 2016 to delete pics. that occupy space in my PC.

The deepest-color pics were fertilized with cocoa mulch (pH 5.6 and many trace elements), and the year with the most blooms (40+ buds) in hot summer at 90 F .. that's when I did triple-layers of slow-released for trace-elements: cocoa mulch NPK 3-1-4, plus horse manure, plus Lilly for roses NPK 5-8-4 (with chicken manure).

The stingiest year & faded color when I experimented with red-lava and pea-gravel which hardy dissolve on top, plus SOLUBLE sulfate of potash & gypsum.

Rain leaches out trace-elements. When I visited Chicago Botanical Garden in heavy-rain early summer, roses are faded in colors, zero scents. I hope to top all my roses with alfalfa hay & 1/2 cup of Tomato Tone ... before more rain this weekend.

Tomato Tone has NPK 3-4-6 versus Rose Tone at NPK 4-3-2. Lily Miller for roses NPK 5-8-4 is another option.

Ingredients in Lilly Miller for roses: Chicken manure, alfalfa meal, ammonium sulfate, ammonium phosphate, sulfate of potash, calcium and sodium borate, Ferrous, Manganese and zinc oxides, sodium molybdate. NPK 5-8-4, with 4% calcium, 4% sulfur, and 0.1% iron. *** good for pots, since pots leach out nitrogen most.

Here's the ingredients in RoseTone: Feather meal, chicken manure, cocoa meal, bone meal, aflafa meal, green sand, humates, sulfate of potash, plus beneficial bacteria. NPK 4-3-2. Tomato tone at NPK 3-4-6 has the same ingredient, but more of potassium via greensand, plus more phosphorus for alkaline clay.

Pennington Alaska NPK 4-6-6 has blood meal, alfalfa meal, fish bone meal, sulfate of potash, and kelp meal .. this produces the most blooms and least burning, perhaps due to zero chicken-manure. Sold on Amazon for $9 per 3 lb, more expensive than Rose-tone:

Pennington fish & kelp NPK 4-6-6 on Amazon

Chicken manure is hot and burns plants in high heat. An Amazon customer said this best about Tomato Tone NPK 3-4-6 with chicken manure: "This organic fertilizer works very well with my Tomatoes, more fruit and bigger but it does burn every vegetable that I tried using this fertilizer." Agree, it does burn if too much is put in the planting hole for roses.

Here in Chicagoland it was 80% humidity July 21, then rained all night. Yesterday I put dolomitic lime on the dark-green leaves roses, and gypsum on the pale-leaves roses. If I don't do that, then rain leaches out calcium & magnesium, and roses get less petals.

Rain leaches out potassium big-time, esp. in pots. So I sprinkled sulfate of potash on the pale-leave roses, and put red-lava-rock on the dark-green leaves roses. Heavy-rain climate require lots more fertilizer. I usually put chicken manure before a heavy rain, but Menards stop selling that cheap, will have to buy that from Walmart.

Below roses were fertilized with cheap Chickity-doo-doo .. smaller blooms & decent color. I didn't use high potassium red-lava-rock back then.

Valrose FL Zone 8b

I use poultry ( chickens and guineas) manure straight from the concrete floor of my poultry house. It is mixed with chicken feed, chickens are very messy eaters. I applied a small scoop (about a 2 tablespoons) per plant on top of the mulch, and then I water it in. I am careful to keep it of the stem of the plants. I have never had trouble with burning from the manure. I don't know about it's salt content, but my plants seem to love it, even in the heat of the summer.

strawchicago(zone 5a)

Thank you, Val, excellent info about the dose (2 Tablespoon) .. is your soil sandy/loamy ? Sandy soil leaches out salt easier than clay (retains salt very well). Seaweed from CA (alkaline clay) raises her own-chicken, she dilutes her fresh-poo with water 1st, before applying.

Seaweed has 11 inch. of rain, compared to Newberry, Florida of 47.33 of rain.

Sulfate of potash has salt-index of 43, at half of salt-index of high-nitrogen chicken manure. I put 1 teaspoon sulfate of potash per small own-root rose. The roses in loamy potting soil (MG-moisture control) .. didn't mind. But the roses in my dense & heavy & sticky clay wilted in hot sun, despite my watering in. For that reason I don't apply fertilizer in clay, unless it's all-night, or all-day rain right after application.

When the deer ate all the leaves off my own-root Firefighter rose in June 2013, I spread 1/3 cup of dried-chicken manure NPK 5-3-2 around the bush .. and watered that in .. but we didn't get rain for over 2 weeks in June, and that burnt some of its roots, it didn't survive winter.

The late rosarian Karl Bapst, zone 5a, also warned folks about less granular fertilizer in spring since the newly-grown feeder roots is so tiny, thus too much granular fertilizer will burn it. Zone 5a own-roots are so small, with winter below -20 killed all the feeder-roots, and new-growth is very tiny.

Valrose FL Zone 8b

My soil is very sandy. I amend it by topping it with a layer 4" of composted wood debris, on top of that I have a 4" layer of uncomposted wood debris which I replenish during the season. The fresh poultry manure that I am using is at least half "laying crumbles", which is a chicken food formulate for hens. It may provide as much benefit as the chicken manure. I am careful with the fresh manure because I do not want to burn the plants with the "hot" nitrogen.

This is a link on poultry manure from University of Florida. It says that the phosphorous content in poultry manure is so high that it should be determining factor in application instead of nitrogen, I did not know this until I started doing some research for answer. This is of concern to me because I have trouble with iron deficiency in some of my rose plants and maybe it is the phosphorous that is contributing to my iron problems.

strawchicago(zone 5a)

The above pic. shows the wilting & leaves-got-thinner effect of acid-rain on Veteran's Honor in a pot. I immediately topped the pot with alkaline minerals: pea-gravel and red-lava. Since it's a tiny own-root, it can't handle dolomitic lime which shoots up pH too drastically.

chicagostraw, thank you for all the info. I followed the link from HMF. This info is invaluable. I am in zone 7(VA), and all my roses suffer from blackspot. I don't spray them, and so far they have miraculously survived. But there are times when they completely get defoliated. I was going to use baking soda spray, have you ever tried it? This year, I used alfaalfa pellets, aged horse manure, rain water only, it's heavily mulched(so stays moist even during the worst dry spells). During winter/early spring, I added dolomite too. But still got more blackspot this year.

purilisa: If you have clay soil, it will be slow-draining, and roots soaked in prolonged acidic clay can't get nutrients, so roses decline & blackspot. The permanent solution for clay and high-rain climate is to dig past 2 feet, and throw away the dense clay & rocks at the bottom that's blocking water.

If you have sandy soil and high rain, roses still blackspot if there's deficiency in nutrients, esp. calcium and potassium, which get leached out with rain. The best solution for both clay or sandy soil is to have FAST-DRAINING hole, but plenty of ALKALINE minerals at bottom of the hole. My heathiest roses for the past 7 years are the ones I dig deep for drainage, plus ALKALINE minerals at the bottom of the hole to neutralize acidic rain water.

Spraying with baking soda is a temporary fix, and not a permanent solution. Good drainage and ALKALINE MINERALS (calcium, potassium, magnesium) are needed to toughen plants' tissue against acidic rain & fungi invasion and pests. For more info., see below link, scroll all the way down, and see where I explain why potassium and calcium are important (need constant supply), otherwise roses break out in diseases when the pH fall below neutral.

I test cut blooms (with leaves) in the vase. In my pH 9 tap-water, they can soak for weeks with zero blackspots. But if I soak cut-blooms (with leaves) in acidic rain water (at pH 4.5 in my Chicagoland, and even more acidic on the East coast) ... leaves break out in blackspots within 3 days. But if I put pea-gravel, red-lava-rock, or Azomite in the vase, leaves don't break out in blackspots despite soaking in acidic rain water. But they can never stay clean as in my pH 9 tap-water (pH of baking soda is 8.3.). So the secret of staying healthy is never falling below neutral, that's when leaves become thinner and fungi can latch on, be it rust, mildew, or blackspot.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/4574920/lets-share-whole-bush-pictures#20133018

Also if your roses are grafted on Dr. Huey, IT'S NOT SUITABLE for poor drainage & acidic soil. Dr. Huey-rootstock likes it alkaline & barely moist. But Multiflora-rootstock is better suited for high-rain & acidic soil. Own-roots are healthier than grafted-roses, be it hot summer or rainy fall. Roses Unlimited is having a sale until June 19 for own-root roses, only $12 per gallon. Pat Henry is very nice, she will suggest roses that are known to be vigorous & healthy, depending on your soil type (clay, loamy, sandy), and soil pH (neutral, acidic, or alkaline) ... each type of own-root has their preferences, best to e-mail Pat to ask. I ordered roses from her at least a dozen times for the past 7 years, and they are prompt & trustworthy:

https://rosesunlimitedsc.com/

@strawChicago... THANKYOU! Awesome writeup. I have clay soil and poor drainage. I have been building soil upwards for the last 5 years by mulching with wood chips 2-3 foot every year, amending with coffee, fish and compost. The problem when I dig a big hole is that, there's a good possibility the rose could be sitting in water(acidic). There is atleast 2-3 feet of loamy soil now. This year BS seems worse, the only change I made is that I added horse manure, alfaalfa, rabbit manure, epsom and dolomite. I am going to try the pea gravel, lava rock, dolomite and lime mix. I actually have Azomite, just haven't been using it. I will start tomorrow. Also got a lot of Molasses. I will mix all this up and see what happens. The roses have been good troopers so far, even after total defoliation by the evil BS, the leaves come back stronger probably because of epsom.

I totally agree about RU, although this is the first time I ordered from them. They were very nice and accomodating when I modified my initial order.

I ordered Duchesse de brabant, Crown princess Margareta, Alchymist & Sugar Moon. (PS: should have probably ordered more David Austins, but they do take up space, which is in short supply in my yard)

Purlisa: I no longer post for the pubic, but I make exceptions when people ask for me specifically. I respect & learn from honest folks like you who share about their garden. I learn more from honest folks who talk about problems in their garden, than gorgeous pics. of roses (with zero details as to type of soil & pH-level & climate & annual rainfall).

That's my pet-peeve in HMF, folks just post pics, without specifying if it's own-root or grafted, zero info. on planting zone & type of soil & climate. If you click on my Houzz profile-picture , I updated to include tips on how to tell which own-roots are appropriate for which soil pH, type of soil & climate, just by looking at the leaves.

https://www.houzz.com/user/strawchicago

I received 8 roses yesterday 6/15 from RU summer sale, they are BIG, and some are over 2 feet tall & with buds & blooms .. very healthy. These roses are bigger & more blooms that the 7 roses I bought full-price early May.

My last house was acidic clay: soft & easy to dig, with blue hydrangeas & deep-colors roses. My current house is alkaline clay: rock-hard, need a pick-ax to dig, pink hydrangeas, and roses have faded colors. Roses are much healthier in alkaline clay.

My purpose of posting is to help foiks NOT to make the same mistakes like I did in my 30+ years of growing roses, and 110 own-root varieties. My B.S. is in Computer Science, minor in Chemistry, so I want to use my background to help folks. If you have sticky & dense clay, skip the Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate), since it hardens clay further. MAGNESIUM DEFICIENCY IS RARE, EXCEPT IN SANDY SOIL (this is from the booklet when I got my soil tested by EarthCo.) My sticky clay soil was tested exceedingly high in magnesium.

Skip the molasses, I tested for many years and it attracts rose-slugs, plus sugarly stuff LOWERS soil pH, sugar sours things fast.

Azomite is similar to dolomitic lime (both have pH 9), but Azomite works faster. Digging deep, and remove the dense & icky clay & rocks at bottom helps with drainage, so acidic rain water don't sit at the bottom to rot roots.

If your clay soil is acidic, COARSE sand (paver's sand) is good on top. BAGGED SAND AT STORES IS VERY ALKALINE, so it will neutralize the acidity of rain. Niels in Denmark, with hundreds of roses, put sand on top of his acidic clay. Skip the alfalfa, it becomes VERY ACIDIC like Kimchi if decays in acidic rain water. Many folks report roses breaking out in blackspots after "sour alfalfa tea", it's like watering roses with sauerkraut or Kimchi-water. At least Kimchi or sauerkraut has salt to control the acidity, but I already tested acidic-alfalfa-tea and it made leaves thinner, thanks to its acidity.

Since my clay is rock-hard alkaline at pH near 8, I use acidic pine bark (pH 4) to fix my clay. People root roses in sand. I read a book by a CA rose-grower on the coast (mild temperate climate), he bought a land filled with sand and converted into a rose nursery, to sell cut-flowers !! Here's an excerpt from Houzz when I googled on clay .. folks in CA have heavy abode clay, while I have dolomitic clay. But both are mineral-rich clay.

Kittymoonbeam have over 100+ roses in Southern CA, wrote this in Houzz .. from my experience I agree with her 100% .. I killed plenty of roses with acidic organic matter in the planting hole. And Roses Unlimited's tip of 1 cup of alfalfa meal mix-in WORKS ONLY FOR THEIR ALKALINE-TAP WATER inside nursery, but NOT FOR OUTDOOR ACIDIC RAIN, with pH 4.5 in my Chicagoland, and even more acidic rain on the East Coast.

Kittymoonbeam - "I just came from a soils class by a local nurseryman. He said DON'T add organic amendment into the soil. The plants only tolerate it, not prosper in it. The short of it is that eventually it breaks down and rots causing oxygen problems in the root zone. A NASA guy said NO terrestrial plant wants to live in ground up dead tree.

So most potting soils are only good for maybe 5 months, then they start harming plants. The growers know the plants can only survive a short period before they decline in that mix. Potting up in non amended soil causes no harm. You can grow in 100 percent sand as long as you water and feed often enough. Strawberry leaves from plants grown in sand were twice the size of those in the premium potting mix! There are no overwatering issues.

Why the change from propagation in soil to wood products is a long story. However, we've all been taught to do it. But no one ever used to in the old days. Disneyland removed their riverbed soil and replaced with amended soil. After a few years, they took it all out and purchased new riverbed sandy loam and now they only mulch on top.

This is all new to me but that's the way it was for millions of years. The organic stuff stays on top where it breaks down and travels to the roots below. Roots want a purely mineral soil with as much oxygen as they can get and still be moist." Kittymoonbeam.

Lauren (Los Angeles, 10a, Sunset Zone 19) - kittymoonbeam, that does seem to make sense. Limited personal experience has also showed me that top dressing compost with shredded leaves/mulch produced better results than than simply mixing some compost into the surrounding soil" Lauren

This thread contains most valuable information. Thanks a ton Straw

Thank you @Strawchicago. I appreciate all the info. I will start with sand & Azomite first. I was happy to hear you got such large plants:) mine will be arriving either this week or next. Again, thank you for generously sharing your know how!!

purilisa: Alert: coarse sand (with nasty chemical quick lime) killed 3 of my Austin roses this past zone 5a winter. Also folks with sandy soil & rain have the worst midge-infestation. Midge likes moist soil, and sand has the perfect moisture level for midge-germination. Midge is the worst infestation one can get: all buds are destroyed. Midge doesn't like it too dry (dry bark, alkaline clay, grass clippings), and it doesn't like too wet (flooded & poor drainage clay).

Sand on top would invite midge, since it holds the perfect moisture level for midge larvae.

I didn't have any midge nor thrips in my last rose garden in ACIDIC CLAY. The below thread showed my failed experiments on alfalfa meal & molasses & bagged coarse sand. I have very good result testing Azomite for the past 2 years (with tons of acidic rain), also good result with a few colorful pea-gravel on top with glossy foliage (when there's tons of acidic rain).

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/3958679/roses-and-plants-in-heavy-clay-ph-8-zone-5a-38-rain-and-23-snow?n=47

Below is the picture of pea-gravel that I use to supply minerals that's leaching out in weeks of heavy rain, by topping the roses with glossy foliage with that. It's a gentle release of alkaline minerals, rather than shooting up the pH to 9 like that of CHEMICAL quick-lime (added to bagged cow manure and bagged coarse sand):

bump up for reference