Stacey, how far "inland" are you? I've grown Golden Celebration in Valencia, which is pretty far inland. It does have the tendancy to stop for a rest after a major flowering. It takes a lot of resources to produce those large, very double flowers in any quantities. I would suggest you not cut the long canes back severely as that actually reduces the amount of food the plant can produce and has available for use.

In hot climates, you need to think of these types of roses as climbers. That is how they perform. You wouldn't hack out major canes from a climber after the first flush and expect it to come back flowering heavily. Perhaps if you can tie those canes in horizontally so they produce laterals, permitting the plant to retain the extra food storage of the canes and the extra food production capacity of all that extra foliage, it might perform better. Your comment that it could also be water related is probably pretty right on, too. Though not as bad as Graham Thomas, Golden Celebration definitely needs more water during hotter periods. It's a large plant which wants to be a climber; produces large, many petaled flowers and that all takes water. Kim

You could try give it a hit of Miracle Grow Lawn Food, or blood meal, something high in N. Usually gets the slackers going right away. Might just be too hot for it, though. No use getting a big flush if the heat is just going to toast the flowers.

Thanks for answering both of you. My zone is VERY far inland, 30 miles outside Sacramento, we do get the Delta influence here.

I should have said the roses grow on an arbor, not a trellis. This is a massive display.

Roseseek yes, I have been training canes horizontally, just chopping the wayward canes. I have tried the more water approach, I will try it in conjunction with a high nitro fertilizer. I also forgot to mention that these are interplanted with Cl. Autumn Sunset, which is behaving the same way, no new growth in summer. Cl. AS was planted with them because I have found it to be a very reliable summer bloomer in the past, I've had it at three houses. Not anymore.

I remember when I first planted them, I was shocked at how quickly the G.C. just went nuts with growth. So I assumed they were very happy there.

Hoovb, I will try a high N food. It would be nice for them just to be at least green, right now they just look hacked up and pitiful. I feel like a bad parent. My unhappy roses! Yes, the summer blooms fry quite quickly. I still want some for the house though, I used to cut them before the hot rays toasted them.

Stacey, I've found that alfalfa meal does wonders to encourage new growth, and in a week I can already see the new shoots coming out. I buy it in 50 pound bags, pour about 2 cups over the plants, 1 cup for the smaller ones, and water it in well with a hose for several days so that it doesn't clump up or just sit on top of the soil. It's organic, rather inexpensive, and my roses seem to love it.

Ingrid

I second Jerijen's wisdom of NOT WHACKING Golden Celebration. I chopped her short last year and she retorted by being stingy. This year I put a tall wooden post, an let her climb. I cut strips of cloth and tie her cane to the post. She flowers like crazy. When the bloom is done, I snap off with my finger, zero pruning.

Kathy in California once advised me on "Golden Zest", a child of "Golden Celebration". Kathy wrote "Golden Zest" EATS nitrogen. So when Golden Celebration was done with her 1st flush, I scooped up soil to make a huge basin around her to collect water, dumped 1 cup of alfalfa meal as Ingrid suggested, then put 1/4 cup of acid fertilizer NPK of 10-5-4 (dried chicken manure) and trace elements for my alkaline water. The second flush was great!

OMG Jeri. Your GC looks like it belongs in Ripley's Believe it or Not!

OMG! Thank you everyone! I am off to the nursery to pick up some supplies.

Dang- the dirty deed of whacking has already occurred. I did not cut back after spring and nothing happened so I gave it a haircut again to try that. Darnit.

I hope the watering and alfalfa meal/ high nitrogen ( can I do both at the same time?) works to redeem them, or at least green up some. This was supposed to be my summer -wow- factor with the roses underplanted with tibochina and russelia and a clipped bright green snaky hedge of Wheeler's dwarf Pittosporum tobira. I was really feeling like I failed it. It's been bumming me out all summer when I am in my garden. You've given me hope that all is not lost! Thanks.

Hi Stacey: Afalfa meal NPK is only 2-1-2, low in nitrogen but it contains high amounts of Vitamin A, Folic Acid, Thiamin, Riboflavin, Pantothenic Acid, Niacin, and Tricontanol, a natural occurring growth hormone. I have my pots experiment: one topdressed with alfalfa meal, one with granules high nitrogen fertilizer, one with Oscomolite, one with soluble nitrogen fertilizer, and one with horse manure. The biggest growth is wih alfalfa meal (6" gain with 3 days of rain).

It helps to add a fertilizer high in nitrogen. I used "Acid Fertilizer for Acid-loving plants" at Lowe's which contains high nitrogen in a slow-release form (chicken manure). If you have alkaline clay like me, it doesn't absorb water well, either drip-irrigation or making a huge basin around the rose, then dump a big bucket of water and let it slowly soak in.

We have 2 days of rain and thunderstorm, and I thought my clay soil would be wet. I was wrong when I dug up my peonies. Only 1" of surface soil was moist, the rest was rock-hard. With water-hogs like Austin roses, it helps to have fluffy soil high in organic matter to retain moisture. I'll going to dig up Frederic Mistral, another water hog, to fix the soil, making it more moisture-retentive when the weather cools down.

You can apply alfalfa and fast nitrogen (such as urea or lawn fertilizer) at the same time, as alfalfa releases N slowly.

It seems counter intuitive that heavy rain wouldn't result in saturated soil, but that's often the case. Unless your soil absorbs water, much of it just runs off. That's particularly true of potted plants. The water bounces off the foliage and falls around the drip zone, which is frequently outside the pot. My neighbors and clients think I'm nuts to water the pots before and after rains, until I show them their pots are dry. Kim

Before y'all keel over from shock, that is a HEDGE of 5 plants of Golden Celebration -- with a 6th own-root plant tucked up at the top end, just starting to hit its stride.

We planted this for privacy (our bedroom is just there) and to keep loose neighborhood dogs from jumping against our house. (It was quite effective.)

Later, we planted a hedge of "Grandmother's Hat" a few feet to the other side, so -- now -- we can walk between the two hedges.

Jeri

Geri- that gorgeous, sexy display is why I couldn't give up on GC. Mine looks just like that in the spring, except up on an arbor.

I got the alfalfa meal and did scratch it in somewhat. Will it work as a semi top dressing? There wasn't room to really work it into the soil right now. I used ground alfalfa meal, not the pellets.

Fertilizing and watering now. I bought Miracle Gro rose food. I usually use fish emulsion, maybe not as strong and as available as the urea stuff? I can't remember why I have an aversion to Miracle Gro, I haven't bought it in years. My head spins with the fertilizers I've tried. Anyone care to point me to a thread on favorite fertilizers?

Hi Stacey: In this hot weather, it's good to pay attention to the salt index of fertilizer. Salt index of table salt if 100, and urea index is 74.4, quite high. Fertilizing with chemicals is like dumping salt on the rose bush. My MiracleGro soluble food has both urea and ammonium nitrate, salt index of 104, so I don't use that stuff in this hot weather.

As to nitrogen sources, chemicals are highest in salt, next is animal manure, then blood meal, and last is alfalfa meal. The type of soil under your Golden Celebration is a better indicator of why it's not growing.

One raised bed I have fluffy soil mixed with grass clippings, roses grow beserk without fertilizer. Another place I have native compact soil, and nothing grows there, no matter how much fertilizer I used. I tried breaking up that place with peat moss, horse manure ... then a year later the soil became glued again like rocks. Finally I used pine mulch, coarse sand, and organic matter like leaves, then the soil stayed fluffy for good.

Both blood meal and alfalfa meal are lower in salt, and promote quick growth. If that doesn't work, then clay soil compaction is most likely be the cause of plant NOT expanding its roots. If you have sandy soil, then blood meal and alfalfa meal should work pretty fast, without the risk of salt accumulation and burning in hot weather like chemicals.

Blood meal NPK is 12-0-0, quite high in nitrogen. I used it at temp. above 80 before a heavy rain and it works pretty fast.

As to alfalfa meal: my best result was when I mixed it with fluffy potting soil, and topdressed my roses. Why? The microbes in the soil helps to break down alfalfa meal, and the extra soil on top helps to retain moisture and builds up the soil from top down. The acidic potting soil helps to neutralize my alkaline soil as well.

Since my soil is tested deficient in potassium (necessary for root growth) I also mixed horse manure (high in potassium) with alfalfa meal, and mulch my roses. The growth isn't as fast as potting soil, due to horse manure being alkaline.

Thank you for the info Strawberryhill. I have been trying to build up the soil here (very alkaline clay) with my grass clippings. It's hard for me to root around in there, plantings are very close together.

I did prepare the soil well when planting, rototilled and all that, but I also noticed on a different side bed, where I ripped out some awful junipers by chain tied to a truck, hauled in enormous amounts of topsoil that went very deep because of the extensive root systems, that bed has once again reverted to clay after three years. almost hard pan. It's been neglected and stuffed with random stuff that I've divided so not a priority.

I already applied the miracle gro. I knew I didn't like it for a reason. Ha!

Hi Stacey: I have my regret spending $5 on that MiracleGro soluble fertilizer - the thrips love that stuff. There are studies done that show a correlation between chemical fertilizers and pests. In my 12 years of gardening here, the 3 years that I used chemical fertilizer in my tomato garden, I get these disgusting huge green caterpillars - total waste of time to pick them off, it's not worth it.

Here's a quote from Spring Valley Roses:

"One fertilizer that we absolutely do not recommend is liquid chemical fertilizers like Miracle Gro -- particularly on Rugosa roses. If you do, you stand a very good chance of burning up the plant. Rugosas are the toughest roses we grow, but they just can't handle the high nitrogen and chemicals salts in Miracle Grow type fertilizers. If you don't believe us, just go ahead and apply it to the leaves or around the base of a Rugosa plant. You won't have to wait more than a day before the leaves turn yellow and crispy. Then, you'll believe us and start using compost instead."

I guess Miracle Gro is akin to using methamphetamine to lose weight, instead of the slow and methodical lifestyle change of diet and exercise.

What do you think of the fish emulsions? I am reading on the back of the bottle that it is ammonia based as well (5-1-1). Are all ammonia based fertilizers the same?

My potted plants love it. I can see a difference fairly fast, mainly in the health and vigor of the new leaves.

Continuing with the metaphor- is Miracle gro crack, and fish emulsion a few drinks on the weekend in terms of choices? I know the hard work and investment of amending and composting with "clean" methods is preferable and far healthier. Or are there no quick fixes available?

Hi Stacey: I like your metaphors - thanks for a good sense of humor. There are conflicting reports on the salt content of fish emulsion. It's great in a well-drained potting soil, but I'm cautious in poor drainage heavy clay, where salt-build-up is more likely.

Here's some info. from Cath in Ohio:

"I have used Neptune fish emulsion and on the whole I think it is beneficial. I do think that I put too much on my citrus (inside in pots) over the winter and they practically defoliated. Citrus is more sensitive to salt build up than many plants and it was done at a time when the plants were vulnerable - near the end of winter after being watered for months with our high mineral water and no rain water to wash it out."

Here's the link to the salt content of fertilizers. Most ammonia sources are high in salt, except for anhydrous ammonia with salt index of 47. For phosphorus, 20% superphosphate is low at 7.8. The link recommends using potassium phosphate at 8.4 versus potassium chloride at 116 (table salt is 100)

This reminds me to return the potassium chloride bag (for de-icing) to Lowe's and get Ecotract (minerals no-salt de-icing) for this winter.

Here is a link that might be useful: Salt index of chemical fertilizers

Stacey, I never scratch in my alfalfa meal, but just dump it over the middle of the bush and then wash it off the leaves and give is a good watering every day for a few days. I like the idea of mixing it in with potting soil as a top dressing as Strawberry Hill recommends and will have to try that some time. That might work even better.

Ingrid

Hi Ingrid & Stacey: I find that alfalfa meal works FAST in hot weather, and even faster when mixed in with fluffy soil and topdressed.

For my pots' experiment fertilized with MiracleGro Soluble, Scott's soluble high in nitrogen, Hollytone granular fertilizer (for my alkaline water pH of 8), chicken-manure and trace elements at NPK of 10-5-4, and alfalfa meal. Alfalfa meal netted the BIGGEST GAIN of 6" growth in 3 days (with some rain), as shown in the below pic. of "Love Ya Dad" mini.

{{gwi:295000}}

The next picture is "Annie Laurie McDowell" after 5 days of applying alfalfa meal. It becomes bushy with 6 buds, which I pinched off. Annie often blooms at the expense of growth, so Kim Rupert, Annie's creator, advised me to pinch off buds.

{{gwi:294089}}

The next picture is "Liv Tyler" at 3 weeks of alfalfa meal, bought recently from Roses Unlimited 3 weeks ago. You can see the lush leaves. Alfalfa meal works faster than the various fertilizers I tried, due to its low-salt, growth hormone, and trace elements besides NPK of 2-1-2.

{{gwi:295001}}

The most impressive result I get from alfalfa meal is 100% health, no disease. The bush that got chemical fertilizer came down with mildew, until Roseseek advised me to water-over head with my alkaline water high in calcium, which acts as fungicide. I don't have mildew on my roses since I stopped ALL CHEMICALS, and water overhead, despite the drought here.

The pictures above are taken at 98 degrees, 70% humidity July weather. Due to the alkalinity of my soil and water, I don't have blackspots here, but plenty of pests like JB, rabbits, and chipmunks.

Do you use the alfalfa meal on newer planted roses or established ones?

And do skunks like it?

Hi Kippy - I'm glad to hear from you. I use alfalfa meal on BOTH newly planted roses and established ones. At first I used it the wrong way: like MIXING 1 gallon of alfalfa meal DEEP IN THE HOLE to break up clay. Ten months later I moved William Shakespeare and found that I made hardened concrete out of sticky clay and W.Shakespeare roots could not expand.

The second wrong way I did was to dump 2 cups of alfalfa meal around my white pine tree and let them glue up. 49" of rain, and 6 months later, I still got gunks of alfalfa meal, and the tree turned yellow.

Now I break up clay with coarse sand, grass clippings, leaves, and pine mulch first, plant the rose. Last is to mix 2 cups of alfalfa meal with fluffy topsoil, and TOP DRESS 2" surface, where water will hit to make "alfalfa tea". The fluffy soil prevents the alfalfa meal from glueing, keeps it wet on top of a heavy clay "basin". It's a simulation of "alfalfa tea".

When I dumped alfalfa meal WITHOUT mixing with soil, neighbor dogs came to eat that. Cath from Ohio reported that her dog got diarrhea from that stuff.

Hi Strawberry!

Isn't it amazing how soil can change! My dad, a super soil expert, for some reason (probably to experiment with) dumped some clay and find sand off in his favorite "nothing will even grow here and it is close to the gate/street" zone. The fine sand mixed with the clay (and your grass clippings) left to bake in the sun makes for some wonderful bricks. I was going to have to use the Hilti hammer/chipper to try and break up that mound.

I was reading on one of the posts (I think on GardenWeb) about some one that purchased pellet for alfalfa (animal feed) from their feed store. And I sure wish I could find that post. Does anyone do that? I was thinking to use as a fertilizer on top of the soil.

Kippy, we avoid the pellets because they have quite a lot of molasses in them, and the Good Lord Knows, encouraging ants doesn't appeal to me. (Not that I think it would hurt the roses.) The meal is REALLY hard to find. We've used CUBES, which we can buy at The Wharf, in Ventura, and they have a little molasses I think, but not so much.

HOWEVER -- we use that to make alfalfa tea.
I think the cubes, scattered on the ground, might attract vermin (rats, squirrels, even wabbits, possums and the like) so we don't use it dry.

Jeri

Hi Jeri and Kippy: I read about how Indians made pottery with clay and fine sand. The sand I use is very coarse, with tiny pebbles mixed in. I used it under bricks, and 12 years later, I dug up and the sand is still intact, hasn't compressed nor became glued in with clay. It's different from fine sand, or play sand, which is a disaster in clay. I prefer pine mulch, but will dig up the hole next year to see if pine mulch makes concrete with clay.

Alfalfa meal is sold at the feed store. It's hot stuff, was sold out in the spring, we had to order in advance. Alfalfa pellets in one Unversity Extension's marigolds experiment TURNED THE PLANTS YELLOWISH. From my experience with alfalfa, it's best in a decomposed, or wet form like alfalfa tea. The tea is messy to make, so I settle for forming a big basin around the rose, and flood the decomposed meal-mix-with-soil.

Here is a link that might be useful: Universty of Mass.'s marigolds experiment

When we make alfalfa tea -- it's not that hard.

We take a big 30-G trash can, toss in some alfalfa meal or cubes, and fill the trash can with water. Put the lid on, and go away.

DH does think there's some value in an occasional stir, using a rake or shovel, but otherwise just PLEASE leave it covered.

When we take it out, we dilute it by about 1 part liquid to 3 parts water, and give each bush about a gallon, poured from a bucket. Big climbers, maybe some extra. The leftover glop in the bottom gets tossed around a couple of roses.

That's about all there is to it, and while it does stink, that dissipates right away. Roses will put on growth almost immediately.

We really need to find time to do this . . .

Jeri

I purchase pellets that are locally produced. They have no molasses. I get them where we purchase our horse feed.

I need to make a clarification: our dog ate the alfalfa and then had a lot of very dry stool. She will eat anything - even green sand and after that she needed an I V. So I appreciate Strawberry's information on mixing alfalfa with potting soil and then top dressing. Maybe the potting soil will deter her.

Cath

I will ask the gals at the feed store next time I stop by for some chicken feed.

We have an old galv "trash" can with a big valve on it, we hope to set it up as a "tea" can. Wonder if the bits that fall from the alfalfa bales from my bosses horses would make good tea.

Thanks Cath for the clarification - English is not my native language so sometimes I don't get the slang-term right. Thanks for the info. of dry stool, which explains why my clay became DRY CONCRETE when I used alfalfa meal to break it up last year.

Hi Kippy: I'm sure the bits that fall from alfalfa bales are BETTER than what I got from the feedstore: It's a 25 lbs. bag for $15, but it has only 17% alfalfa by dry weight. I have no idea what's the rest? May be they put glue in it (just kidding).

CATH -- THE POTTING SOIL WILL NOT DETER THE DOG!!!

She will just eat that along with the alfalfa.
Trust me on this.

Jeri

Double-protection may help: I topdressed roses with soil-mix-alfalfa-meal, water it well, then I mulched roses with horse manure.

I saw a poodle eating those plugs of dirt from lawn-aeration. It's like tasty dirt-biscuit for her. The smell of alfalfa meal can attract dogs from far away.

That's really odd. Neither of my two dogs has paid any attention to the alfalfa pellets I put directly around my roses. And they both normally eat anything. They will steal the horses' grain out of the buckets if you turn your back, but ignore the pellets. However, they will eat, ugh, manure. Farm dogs consider this to be a delicacy, the Chalet Suzanne of the doggy world (that's a fancy restaurant here in central Florida). Perhaps they prefer the manure over the pellets.

I used horse manure last year and no dogs visited my garden. This year I'm heavy on alfalfa meal, it creates a cloud of dust which the wind brings it far away to attract dogs. Alfalfa meal is lethal, I have to shower and wash my clothes after using that stuff.

The next time I wear a dust mask, rather than holding my breadth until I turn blue.

Jeri, I had to laugh:
"CATH -- THE POTTING SOIL WILL NOT DETER THE DOG!!!"

Knowing this dog, I should have figured it out myself.

Cath

Just chiming in about the alfalfa at a feed store - I use the alfalfa HAY exclusively, partly because it's cheaper in bulk (mine is $12 for a 50 lb. bale), and partly because it doesn't create the cloud of dust that StrawberryHill talks about. I used to use the alfalfa cubes like Jeri, but I found I had to break them up, and as she says, they have molasses added to them.

The alfalfa hay is 100% alfalfa, and it stays light and fluffy. I always add a few handfuls into my compost and manure that I mix into planting holes for new roses, and always scatter and scratch in alfalfa around the existing roses every spring as I pull off the leaf protection. Not having an overly inquisitive dog, the leaves mixed in with the topdressing of alfalfa and compost tends to cut down on the crusting as well as critters eating the food, but I certainly sympathize about the dogs barreling through all that to get to the alfalfa. It's possible that the pure hay wouldn't interest them as much as the pellets or cubes, but I don't have a dog and wouldn't presume to guess.

The only thing lethal about the alfalfa hay is the smell if you leave the bag in the rain (or sprinkler) before you get it spread out, but we're all used to that from using alfalfa anyway.

Cynthia

Cynthia, I love you for that great tip! Since my hubby goes to the feed store instead of I - I never know about alfalfa hay. I'm sure I like it more since it won't make concrete out of clay soil.

The grass clippings work wonder here. This year I have the tallest tomato plants in 12 years, thanks to our rototilling grass clippings into the soil early spring. I hoping for the same result with alfalfa hay.

Alfalfa really pump out blooms FAST. Roses sit still and do nothing until I top-dress with fluffy soil mixed with alfalfa & flood with water - then BOOM! they literally explode in buds.