I really like it that we get some new blood to the forum every year or two. Cause sooner or later one of them is gonna say something like "...the only real way to mellow a high clay soil is with organic matter."

Or "It makes bricks under heat." Which happens to be true if you use a kiln. Makes pottery too. Some of the most beautiful pottery ever made was done with the local clay here. Use google images "niloak swirl" to see what I mean.

There is nothing I like to talk more about than clay. And I thank you folks for the oppertunity to do just that.

Now where should I start. I suppose I should clarify that I have a "real heavy clay" or what I say wouldn't mean much. maggiemae says she has clay, but I'm going to show you mine. I know all you old regulars to the forum are tired of seeing photos of my clay. Maybe I can do something different.

A couple of years back I took some of my clay, wet it and rolled out a thin rod. After it dried a day, you can see it in the photo below, holding itself up across a span. I don't think this can be done with soil other than an almost pure clay.

{{gwi:316685}}

In the photo above you can see one of several clay balls I made. These were let dry for three days until hard. How hard? In the photo below I take three balls and place plywood on top.

{{gwi:316686}}

Next I start stacking heavy concrete blocks on the plywood. Three blocks on and all's well. But I should have started this on the ground because now I need a ladder.

{{gwi:316687}}

Five blocks on, looking good. I had trouble with number 6, got off balance on the ladder and let the block bang down on the stack. When I got down and looked one ball had cracked.

{{gwi:316688}}

Note the bow in the plywood from the weight. Real clay does get hard. Some topsoil sellers might call what I have a sandy loam. I call it real clay.
{{gwi:316689}}

{{gwi:316690}}

I scraped the thin layer of topsoil off my yard and put it in a pile. If a neighbor needs to fill a stump hole, I give him the topsoil.

Why did I discard my topsoil, leave my compost in the pile for the worms to eat, and start my garden with clay?

Cause I'm a lazy gardener. I'm just not that into to work. I don't own a tiller, don't need one, don't want one. I do have a standard shovel, hoe, and rake, though most of my gardening is done with a hand spade and a brush.

This crazy clay gardening gets me plants that look like this ...

{{gwi:316691}}

and this .....

{{gwi:16922}}

So, instead of gypsum to break up clay we need plywood and concrete blocks?

yep maggiemae, plywood and concrete blocks. Put the plywood to your left ear, and aply the block to your right ear .... with force.

I forgot to add;

I apologize in advance if anyone is offended by my tone.

maggiemae, it is next to impossible to offend an ol redneck. I hope you don't mind me funnin' you a bit.

"So, instead of gypsum to break up clay we need plywood and concrete blocks?"

The very last thing you want to do with clay is break it up. Keep it in lumps. Work clay when it's dry with a tiller and it will powder, then the soil becomes a homogenized mess. Work clay when it's damp, or even wet, but never when it's dry.

You may take yourself seriously but it would be a mistake to take me seriously.

Now tell me more about how and when you work clay?

I apologize in advance if anyone is offended by my tone.

Pls8xx said:
"I really like it that we get some new blood to the forum every year or two. Cause sooner or later one of them is gonna say something like"

I agree, but Horrayfororganic is special IMO. Horray has gotten bitten by the organic bug and is all in. Horray has gotting busy learning all to be learned as have other newer members, and they have questions. Now, Horray has found what appears to be loophole/issues with the no-till concept.

First there is the matter of cost of amendments, they are expensive. Of special concern is "wormpoop" and the need to add it yearly. Then there is the issue of just letting it lay there on the top of the ground and waiting for some unknown force to mix this expensive mess up. Now comes the clay/sand ratio and weather that is enough. For if what has been said about a clay/sand mix is true, Horray can save a lot of money and get on with gardening organically.

The membership, thinking these issues had been addressed and resolved in earlier threads is at a loss. Nonetheless they weigh in with HFO, caps, exclamation points, logic, outside web sources, reason, scientific evidence, and years of experience. But Horray will have none of it, for it appears to Horray there may be a need to add clay and sand to this wormpoop in order to remain true to organic principles. It is not until the membership concludes the stacking of concrete blocks on your head is the acceptable solution and Horray will have none of that either. In frustration Horray leaves and starts another thread, this time using hypothetical questions to get the answer so desperately desired.

The membership is worn out! They leave and go turn compost piles a year old, drink gin and tonic, talk about how old and tired they are, admit they drink beer and take Advil together, and just generally lick each others wounds.

Oh yes, newer members are the important people on this forum IMO; we need them. They are the people who make this forum keep from becoming complacent. They are a tremendous force by their innocence of question alone. Go back through this thread from the beginning paying attention to Horray and the responses Horray gives. In total control, keen focus, persistence, conviction, dedication to the principles of organics, no nonsense, and committed to getting to the bottom of what appears to be a "no-till loophole". Horray finally got the answer sought, click the link below in case you missed it

Blutranes

LOL

Believe it or not, I'm nearly just as confused as I was.

Good. You are so special...

Blutranes

Well not *as* confused.

But I still don't get how sand+pure clay = adequate water retention resulting in plants that grow decently

I guess the plants grow decently, but could grow even better if OM was added?

Plants are pretty hardy

And I guess through all this quesitoning I have discovered there is indeed a "problem" in lasagna gardening, in that, if you plop one down on a substance missing a soil component, that soil component will indeed be missing, and all you're adding is wormpoop.

I had always thought lasagna gardening was a cureall to a bad soil, but I know feel it's just a...better alternative..than what was present in an existing base soil upon which the lasagna bed was layed upon

Hooray: I "lasagnaed" 2 beds last fall. By spring the previous clay goo had turned into wonderful, soft, crumbly soil. (Going down at least 8 or 10 inches). My flowers did great in those beds all summer. The surface stuff got mixed in by plentiful worms and by my planting in them. Now they're still quite nice. This fall I only mulched them with leaves.

Karen

HFO, do yourself a huge favor and put a couple of books on your Christmas list. Study them carefully and I guarantee you will have your questions answered. Both are written for the Average Joe (or Josephine :-)) and are easily understood and are perhaps the best presentations on these subjects I've encountered. Both are available in the standard print-on-paper format but I've included online versions as well. (You miss some very valuable and helpful illustrations with the online versions so I'd seriously recommend acquiring hard copies).

"The Soil Biology Primer", Elaine Ingham, Soil and Water Conservation Society, ed.
http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/concepts/soil_biology/soil_food_web.html

"Organic Gardener's Composting", Steve Solomon
http://www.theveggielady.com/organic_composting.php

I guess I'm the source of much of the confusion hoorayfororganic feels. Sorry. Most new gardeners would like to know just one simple thing that will lead them to success. No such animal exists. Please note that though I have been active in her threads, I have as yet not made any recommendation of a garden method to adopt.

Humans have been growing plants for thousands of years. Logic would tell us that if there were one method of gardening that was superior to all others in every situation, that's what every gardener would be doing. That's not the case. What works here won't work there.

Lasagna gardening is not new. The fancy name might be new, but the method is as old as the hills. I was doing lasagna gardening in 1960 at the direction of my father, who was doing it in 1910. The reason we are not all lasagna gardeners is that it doesn't work everywhere, nor does any other garden system.

thanks gardengal ill print those out

pls8xx, I don't want "one simple thing that will lead...to success"

I want to know, in my head, how all of this works. I have read some things on soil, and I've read about lasagna gardening, and then I've seen your methods, and all 3 of these things present complications, or conundrums that make me ask questions.

I'm not really looking for a 1 solution fits all answer, but I'm trying to figure out how these different methods work and what advantages and disadvantages each has over the other.

I can easily see why you said what you just said though, and I think it's because I am presenting these generalized statements about the "average soil" so I apologize.

That being said, I still wonder what advantages/disadvantages your soil method has over the others.

And kq, thank you. I probably underestimated the power of just how deep worms will go.

I know from personal experience one size does not fit all. However, if one has started in one direction I always endorse following that direction through until either acceptable or unacceptable results are reached. The fact that we are back at it again today is evidence enough that there is more than one way to grow some cucumbers.

My point is that as long as we are attracting new members this site will not end up like so many others. There is nothing to promote when our commitment is easy to identify. My pleasure comes from the joy of participation, not weather my ideas and experiences are followed. What is best for the person in their opinion is good enough for me

Blutranes

kq those are good articles I just printed out a bunch of stuff from the usda link, and will sift through the other link and print what I want to..would like to print it all but there's too much to print

o my god this usda site has so much. not only soil biology concepts, but a whole thing on organic matter concepts. wooooooooooo

If there is one good thing that comes from a study of clay gardening, it is that one is forced to abandon some of the misconceptions found in almost all garden books.

If one keeps in mind all that the books say about what a good soil is, look at an assessment of my dirt. On a bright summer day it is a light color, not a good chocolate brown. The surface is dry and hot. Depending on recent activity there may not even be any weeds on it. After a couple of days of rain you would notice it is hard and you walk on it without leaving tracts. You dig in it and there is none of the "structure" the books talk about and no sign of OM to be seen, no micro-herd, no soil food web working. You dig a couple of hours and find not a single worm. How could you come to any other conclusion other than "This soil won't grow much of anything."

And yet, I keep on showing photos of flourishing plants. Can you see that the books are missing something?

Well what I think is that although your soil is good enough to support plants, it could be *better* resulting in even *better* plants. But how much better? I have no idea.

From my limited work with plants I've noticed they are a lot stronger than I once thought. I used to baby them and worry about this and that but over time you realize you can really beat them up and they will still survive and are very adaptive .

It seems, from your example, that clay+sand are some of the most basic and essential things to get plants to survive. It's probably not the material (sand and clay) that is essential, but rather the affects that sand and clay have on plants, that are essential to them growing.

Very interesting

Pls8XX
Ok, first I did not read everything above, but I really enjoyed the pictures of your clay. Couple of comments; you obviously have a Kaolinitic clay. That is a low CEC, non-sticky clay that does not shrink or swell. Otherwise it would have cracked when it dried and would not make pottery. The things you may do in your clay soil will not carry over to a people who have 2:1 clays which are much less forgiving. So if there were say a debate over adding sand to a clay soil, you would be a bad example.

interesting, pls8xx is lucky

Pls8xx said:
"Can you see that the books are missing something?"

More than the books are missing something IMO. I look out the window at a plot @1800 SqFt where the only thing growing on it is a volunteer mustard green plant that is thriving. This plot has been empty since August with no weed growth in it. There is one problem though, there is no mulch on the plot, it is bare soil. I also have a lasagna bed that grew white potatoes, lemon tomatoes, Vidalia onions, carrots, and spinach. That bed has been empty since September. Guess what? No weeds and no mulch either.

I have a bed that is @ 200ftx100ft that is infested with nut grass. My county extension agent gave the insightful suggestion to move to another house as the solution to this nut grass. Someone online as a solution said to plant in the nut grass anyway, it may work. I built lasagna beds (22inches high, 50x5 feet) on the plots and planted watermelons. That nut grass grew through the lasagna beds like they didnt exist; the watermelons grew on the lasagna beds like the nut grass didnt exist either. Was I just lucky? We will soon find out come next year.

Everything must change, nothing stays the same, and it is just the way of time and progress. The problem is when someone finds out something new, most of the time those who find comfort maintaining the status quo see more work on the horizon; most will resist. Those who continue to question and ask "why did, how come, what if" develop imagination thus make discoveries and progress. The price one pays for asking such questions most of the time is salt. The salt found within ones sweat that is, every expensive

Blutranes

P.S. The photo is a Georgia Rattlesnake Watermelon avg. wt. @30lbs.

fert-man

There is kaolin a few miles east of here. Kaolin is not a good clay for plants.

My clay does shrink and swell. Just down the street many houses have had brick veneers removed because swelling kept breaking the brick until it would start falling down. Cracks in drywall are common.

Not all non-kaolin clays crack as they dry, especially where the thickness is not great. You may find interesting the link below to a page on Arkansas clays by the Arkansas Geological Commission.

Pencils made in Indonesia?

I love the mad scientists on this forum. You are true 'groundbreakers'.

Blutranes said "My county extension agent gave the insightful suggestion to move to another house as the solution to this nut grass."

It's not that bad. Nut grass and the evil BG are two tuffies a lot of southern gardeners deal with. They can be beat. Neither can handle shade. Work to increase the depth of the active root zone. This will allow you to select a crop and spacing to completely shade the soil. Southern peas are a good choice for new ground. Green beans and okra also work, but not corn. Follow one crop with another as long as the temps are warm. May take 2 seasons to be weed free.

pls8xx,

I looked at your link, seems geared toward geology but I managed to adjust. Are your clay balls not dry? I assumed they were. I have seen dry smectite clay soils with 3 inch cracks in them, your clay does not look anything like that. I assumed that you were probably in well weathered coastal plain soils that tend to be dominated by 1:1 clays. What is your CEC? That gives a good clue. Although as you say you can have something totatlly different right next door.

Thanks for the tip. The melons didn't mind the nut grass at all. I did fail to mention the rattlesnake was grown from seed purchased at Wal-Mart on sale for the low low price of $0.69 plus tax. I have enough seed to grow again next year. Not bad for someone who didn't get a scientific study to confirm the possibility of success. Did I mention that was not even the biggest melon I grew, and I did grow a lot of big ones. Most folks think size does not matter. However, that depends on what caused the size...

Blutranes

fert-man
The balls I used were only about 1 inch dia. Cracking seems to also be related to the speed of drying. In situ the clay does crack. Once mixed with sand for my beds the few big cracks are replaced with a multitude of tiny cracks only seen with a magnifing glass.

I am ashamed to say I don't know what the CEC is of this soil mix. But it must be high or I wouldn't have the plant vigor of heavy feeders in the absense of OM. When I was young I had soil tests done often, but after so many years of gardening I've come to rely on observation of plant reponse.

Hooray, I think your problem is to much sand, bring in clay is the answer.

I apoligize in advance if my tone offends anyone.

Ps may be to much clay, in that case bring in more sand.

"Pencils made in Indonesia?
I love the mad scientists on this forum. You are true 'groundbreakers'."

Cracked me up!

Karen

bluetrans

this is off the subject but i just gotta say great looking watermelon' I admire someone who knows how to grow a good'ol watermelon .I growed some pretty good ones myself 99 cent a pack seeds' keep it up.

Luvorganic,

Thank you for you kind words, they are much appreciated. A neighbor happened to be riding by (so he tells it) and just stopped to say hi. After looking around he just had to go to the melon patch and see for himself what he thought he saw. To keep him from having a heart attack in my patch I agreed to let him pick a small melon to see if they were ripe. We took the melon inside and after taking a picture we cut it. Two grown men who were hungry could not eat half that melon. We ate what we could and took the rinds to the compost pile. I insisted he take one home to his family, the one I provided the picture of above.

He is the neighbor who sent his two sons to see about me; the two boys I mentioned in the "Legionnaires" post. Those two boys helped me when I could not help myself and I will never forget it. Those boys have a watermelon in their future until the day I die. Now you understand why those two boys were so excited and left here "haulin butt".

Good food not only looks good it tastes good; and more importantly it does good things for your body. The key is the soil; there is no way around it

Blutranes

It would appear from an earlier posting that I do not use mulch, but this is not the case. What you are reading is an example of "one-size fits all" does not work. In my area I have learned because of our mild winters insects burrow into the mulch during the winter months. Some may not realize it, but here in the south if the temperature rises (and it does) above 70 degrees insect come out the woodworks. So if I leave the mulch on the bed, all I have done is set up a breeding ground for insects in my garden. I use mulch as protection from the sun during the summer months and to conserve moisture. All mulch and the dead insect that starved to death in my garden, all insect living within that mulch, or those who sucked the wrong plants sap (more protein) and fell within that mulch are composted. Because I am sick I am not planting a winter crop, thus no need to mulch. The top layer of soil left unprotected dries then acts as a carbon source for next years crop.

I have learned that if I supply my plants with more than enough minerals to sustain good growth those plants will grow until they reach their own set limits. Being conservative in my garden is not a wise thing IMO, my plants pay for it. If I depend on my compost to supply a mineral (say iodine) and there is not enough iodine in the compost my plants will not have any iodine in them. Some will say so what! However, if you bothered to listen to the "Soil and Food" link you well know there is a serious outbreak of Rickets in certain parts of this country. Iodine deficiency causes Rickets. If all I need to do is put forth a small effort to make sure my plants have iodine I feel I am being a responsible gardener to all that eat my fruit. To me it makes sense to cover all my bases rather than rationalize and say, "Everything is in the compost". This is why to complain about cost of amendments to me is asking for trouble. Can a person do without? Yes, and that is the persons choice, but I am talking about Blutranes extreme thinking and the goal I am seeking. Everyone elses goal belongs to them alone, and I am very supportive of everyone setting their own goal and reaching it. If you have a strong enough rocket, you can get to the moon from any point on earth, but you will take a slightly different course than yours truly.

There is another added benefit to making sure all minerals are in the soil. Everything we do NOT understand that the plants do with these minerals is being met. Plus, the plants are using only what they need for that moment in time. The plant may need it later in the growth stage and seek it out; the compost/humus will hold the mineral until the plant seeks it within its roots. The plant is now in the position to grow to its maximum potential in both size and nutrient level. Most people make the mistake of thinking size of fruit is what matters, this is not true. It is the weight of the fruit that matters, for weight reflects the concentration of nutrition within that fruit. A big lightweight tomato is ok, but a small heavyweight tomato loaded with energy should be the ultimate goal of any gardener who went to the trouble to grow the plant IMO. A big heavy tomato can feed one for a week, be slow to spoil, and be delicious to the last drop. To argue this point is silly, to ignore this point is a responsibility I chose to not shrug off. This will forever be my decision.

Lastly, the cost of making sure one has good nutrient loaded fruit is very small IMO, we are talking pennies over here. To use cost as an excuse to not put forth the effort boarders on pathetic. The sweat required (work) only comes into play if you sweat easily. A good organic fertilizer I can make myself (learned from Steve Solomon), purchasing a easy for me to handle spray container, making my own good receipt for a foliar spray mix, then spray my plants at the right time. I use a soil drench when I feel like it and the job is done. Sounds like a plan on a person on a chain gang should be doing, huh? If I stop listening to clowns and start trying some of the things these clowns say not to do I may find out they do not know what they are talking about. I didnt come here to spit venom on anyone, I came to share with anyone who wants to listen how to turn your garden into Eden with little cost or effort, and have some fun doing it. Your neighbors will do as mine do, flock to your home just to see this wonder you have created! If you feel you already have enough I agree, you have your share.

I am so sorry I talk so much sometimes. But if someone tells me I can grow food I do not have to make my family eat, they will eat less of it because it is rich in everything they need so a little is all they need, and my family and friends will get mad with me if I refuse to share this bounty with them, I am listening. The worst thing IMO a person can learn is this; the most important information you need is in the mind of someone you think you do not like

Blutranes

BTW...I am talking about food, not flowers. Flowers make me smile, food makes me go to the bathroom.

fert-man,

You seem to have more than a passing knowledge of clay. I wonder if you would care to comment on the clays found in your area and what garden obersevations you have made from those clays.

Every article I have read over the past 50 years, written by a horticulturist or soil scientist, has told me to add organic matter to soil to improve it. Every nursery that I have gotten plants from has told me to add organic matter to my soil so the plants I bought would grow. None of these people have ever told me to add clay to my sand, and I have not seen anything from those people that adding sand to clay is ecomically feasible. Many of these people have said that adding fertilizer is necessary but my experience is that that form of NPK is unnecessary if sufficient levels of organic matter are present. Soil is really a complex organism and Dr. Inghams Soil Food Web Primer does a good job of explaining that.

Kimmsr, the thread I tried to start about Nitrogen used my notes from a personal conversation I had with Dr Inghams about Nitrogen cycling.

Oops; I got jumped on by about everyone about my conclusion while there was almost no discussion about the Nitrogen.

I did follow that link kimmsr put up. I like to keep an open mind even on things that remind me of fad diets. When I got to the bottom of the page I click on "Disclaimer".

Disclaimer

Notice! You are entering an Official United States Government System, which may be used only for authorized purposes. Unauthorized modification of any information stored on this system may result in criminal prosecution. The Government may monitor and audit usage of this system, and all persons are hereby notified that use of this system constitutes consent to such monitoring and auditing.

Big brother is watching.

I am growing somnolent of people invoking the name "Dr Elaine R. Ingrams" whenever they are running short on humility. Dr Ingrams is one of the most tireless workers of the organic movement I have ever witnessed. She has been on the front line of the compost tea movement since I learned of such a concept. This translates into the good doctor being willing to take a position where no position has been established. To me this is a reflection of her courage and a huge indication of her character. Withstanding all that has been said, Dr Ingrams remains willing to make progress even when she must admit a public posture she has taken has been challenged and proven to be in need of review. Dr Ingrams promptly stepped forward and recanted her position in favor of the public safety. Her illustration of willingness to change is yet another keen example of how to make the correct decision when one must choose weather to "save face", or "save butt"; we cannot do both at the same time. The admission of our board members of the ability to contact and speak personally with the doctor is yet another signal of her commitment to be of service to mankind; I am sure it could be possible at the cost of her own personal time.

I will not entertain the prestigious name of Dr Elaine R. Ingrams as your tool to maintain your seat on a crashing airplane. What I will do is acknowledge the tremendous contribution Dr Ingrams has given to the world, and allow you to pick a different form of organic dissent

Blutranes

Blutranes--I didn't really follow what you were talking about regarding Dr Ingrams. Did she have something to do with airplane safety? When you say she recanted her position in favor of the public safety, do you mean that she is now opposed to public safety?

What do you mean when you say you'll allow people to pick a different form of organic dissent?

Sorry for my confusion. I think I must have missed something that you're assuming we all know about.

Sorry for not being clearer Bpgreen. She has nothing to do with airplane safety, that comment is directed to the person using her good name.

The compost tea council determined that using molasses in brewing tea could cause E Coli to develop in the tea. Dr Ingrams had said to use molasses in the tea. When the report came out she immediately sided with the council for the public safety.

The organic dissent relates to the user of Dr Ingrams name. I will look into anything else the person has to say, but I will not look towards a woman who deserves better than to be used to prove a point.

Sorry for the confusion. I will admit I thought everyone was aware of Dr Ingrams and her work and the history of the compost tea movement. I do apologize for any misunderstanding. That is what I get for trying to not say too much...

Blutranes

Thanks for the clarification, Blutranes. I knew of her work in the compost tea movement, but hadn't heard about the molasses/E. Coli thing.

I did a quick Google and picked this link...

Blutranes

In a effort to be clear I have rewritten my post about Dr Ingrams. I have used contemporary language to the best of my ability. If there are still questions of what I am saying I will attempt to try again...

Im tired of people messing with Dr Elaine R. Ingrams. Dr Ingrams be working hard, real hard. Dr Ingrams got courage and character just like Superman. Dr Ingrams, that girl know about her compost tea (dirt too!), she in the front row (snap) sitting on the corner. Dr Ingrams was telling people to geek up their compost tea. Somebody found out she was doing wrong and put it in the funny papers. You know everybody seen that! Dr Ingrams jumped up and told everybody they were right with the quickness. She covered that butt and dont care what nobody say behind her back. People be talking about they be calling Dr Ingrams all the time. I bet they be calling her when she get off work too, and she talk to them anyway (hmmph).

I am NOT having no talking about Dr Elaine R. Ingrams behind her back just so you can stay stuck on stupid. Dr Ingrams is a real nice lady and helps everybody, even if they talk funny to her. Dr Ingrams take them just like they come, she dont pick and choose. If you wants to talk about somebody with me you best be picking somebody else. If not, you can talk to the hand

Blutranes

Blu, are you talking about Ingham instead of Ingram?

Ingham. Want me to retype it all over? LoL

Blutranes

You clearly know the lady, very VERY determined to stay her course. Hard to take exception with her, she knows her stuff and I don't suggest you are.
But, I did read your post and only realized who you were talking about toward the end of your several post mentioning her name.

Oh man this is funny! Yes, she is the best of the best. What is Blutranes to do? Thanks Maggiemae2006...

Blutranes

This is off topic, but Blutranes, you may be interested in using this English-to-12-year-old translator in the future. It could save you a lot of time retyping posts for contemprary audiences. Here's an example of how it can make your posts more understandable to a wider range of readers.

"IM GROWNG SOMNOL3NT OF PEOPLE INVOKNG TEH NME DR 3LANE3 R!111!11! OMG WTF NGRMS WHENEVER TH3Y R RUNNG SHORT ON HUMILITY!!!11! OMG WTF DR NGRMS SI ONA OF TEH MOST TIERL3S WORKARS OF DA ORGANIC MOVEMANT I HAEV EVER WITNES3D!1111!11! OMG SH3 HAS BAN ON DA FRONT LIEN OF DA COMPOST TEA MOV3MENT SINCA I L3ARNED OF SUCH A CONCAPT!11!!!1!! OMG WTF LOL THES TRANSLAETS IN2 DA GOD DOC2R BNG WILNG 2 TAEK A POSITION WHERA NO POSITION HAS BEN 3STABLISHED!1!!1!! WTF LOL 2 M3 THES SI A R3FL3CTION OF HAR COURAEG AND A HUGA INDICATION OF HER CHARACT3R!1!1! WTF LOL"

Althea,

Thanks...

Blutranes