That's why I wouldn't work on roses for a living. I love it so much, but having to deal with people like that would make me hate it.

Just think of the billable hours and what you can do in your yard with that money :)

LOL, it's a tricky buissness making people think the right thoughts. Sympathie is hopefylly a pretty safe one, a bit stiff, but it grows 6 meters up at tree here, not too much freeze back. Emotional trauma and a funny story. In about 14 days time you have recovered :-)

In all design and consulting situations you are there to make their dreams a reality. You are not there to impose your own taste, unless they have seen that demonstrated elsewhere and want you to reproduce it for them there.

They would do it all themselves if they felt confident in their own abilities to make it happen. The designer is a tool they are paying for the use of, same as renting a tiller. If they think they have gotten what they wanted, and paid you in full in a timely manner, the relationship has been a success. If there may be a need for fine-tuning or corrections later, and both parties have left the first round with an adult perspective, then you have an additional income opportunity when called back to undertake these follow-ups.

If they want a giant clown statue in the exact middle of the lawn, with miniature roses coming out of its mouth, it is up to you as their trusted hired expert to make that happen for them. As you have seen, spending hours trying to talk them out of their taste is useful only for increasing the number of billable hours you can charge for. This extra time should have instead been spent on assuring the wishes they had that it was possible to fulfill were satisfied as best as their personalities would allow.

Control the success of such jobs by determining yourself those details which do not run counter to the client's vision, for instance buying the ledges yourself so that the right ones are brought to the job.

You've just illustrated beautifully why I like plants and animals better than most people. Reasonable people of course are a joy and a treasure, but you just got terribly unlucky. I wonder why they bothered hiring you when they already knew everything better themselves. Just think about the money and never, ever drive by their house or visit their garden.

Ingrid

It must have been like dealing with unreasonable children, with unrealistic expectations who absolutely know nothing about gardening or roses. My condolences, Niels.

I agree with bboy here, some clients are just that, you take a deep breath and do the exact madness they wish to see. To look at it with humor helps too.

Overall with any creative job it is very important to keep a clear line where is your job and where is your personal hobby. Getting too involved can be difficult, when you put your heart in it and people just merely yawn at it, if not telling straight away that it sucks.

Now just wait for them to prune their roses next spring. :D

The sky is falling. I agree with bboy.

There are those design/build contractors who do what they do and that's it. They have a single product they sell, and if the client wants a different product, the client goes elsewhere. Then there are contractors who implement the client's concept, whatever it is.

The biggest problem with this simply dichotomy is that many people don't know what they like, or if they do, they don't know how to express it. An interior designer once showed me a simple trick for working on this problem. The client is given an assignment that takes about a month: buy every single current and back issue of the best magazines in the field and those inexpensive paperback picture books. Tear out everything you really like. Don't worry about why you like it or if they go together. The interior designer then takes the stack and makes sense of it. It's surprisingly simple. Color preferences quickly emerge, as do pattern and style preferences. The one or two big mistakes that make no sense at all when combined with the rest are discarded. It works.

There are gardens, beautiful gardens, where the gardener mixes all kinds of colors, including whites, oranges, reds, yellows, purples and blues. A local municipality has a horticulturalist who does this in the traffic median strips and in hanging baskets all over town. It's wildly successful.

The frustrations dog trainers go through must be like this, too.

("What do you mean it makes no sense for me to have a Great Dane in my studio apartment in Greenwich Village??? When I was a kid my parents would never let me have a dog. I've always wanted a Great Dane, and now that I have my own place I'm going to get a Great Dane!")

In any case, I am not a professional garden designer, but you certainly have my sympathies!

well you got paid for the time so fair enough. I work as a landscaper and designer and have had to be very detached about peoples tastes. The most common annoyance is, after creating a lovely garden with a good pallette of plants to get them started, a year later, they have done NOTHING and it is a horrible overgrown mess. Or, the people who get us in to rescue a dreadful wilderness and the minute is begins to look respectable, get rid off us, only to phone back, six months later. But hey, if you are being paid for your time, then you really cannot complain.
Stupidly, I told my customers that we will only charge for work done - not for looking at stuff or shopping and this mistake has haunted me continually since I have a couple of customers who really take the piss, call me with a days notice, have me in at weekends or evenings, make me spend hours going through catalogues with them and so on. Or, the other nightmare are the people who get us in to do a job, I draw up the plans, then we never hear from them again and I get no payment for plans (which I have finally learned not to leave with them)or time. However, I am a very good gardener and a very poor business person and don't really know how to reconcile this dichotomy so, Neils, if you have billed them for 23 hours for pottering about, I can't see why you are complaining - after all, it's not your garden, it's theirs. And, if you have to go back because it was a disaster, then you can bill them again.

"many people don't know what they like, or if they do, they don't know how to express it."

So true! I am a master craftsman in my field. I cannot tell you how many times I have completed a job as described by the client, only to have them see it and say, "That's not what I want..." Grrrr...

I agree with most of the comments, except for the fact that the roses are not right for their zone and they planted them incorrectly. Wouldn't that be like someone hiring a contractor, and then deciding to start the roof on their own and doing it wrong?

When those roses die (even though you told them they would) aren't they going to blame you? One idea is to have some clients pay as they go, or charge more upfront...maybe they pay for the parts to make the arches and then you go purchase them, as one person recommended. If they don't want to take your advice and don't want to follow your expertise, you could go your separate ways.

It's one thing to have a bad color combination...but it's another to spend a lot of money on plants that will probably be dead in the next few months. As you said, maybe next time say 'no' to a client that headstrong and move on to the next one :)

Hiring a garden designer that specializes in romantic rose gardens or gardens that use roses extensively should be worth it - but only if the clients are willing to listen and take the counsil and advice - and follow through with one of the suggested garden plans.
There is the initial inspection - placement of sunlight measures - taking measurements - skecthing the garden - interview the clients and what their dreams and wishes are for their garden - and budgetting - how much are they willing/able to afford on their new garden design? I do charge them for that time - and I work out a garden plan with suggestions - present to the clients.

Next step is to discus how they want to carry out the plans and designs - employing hardscapers - who is going to do what - shop and supply the plants - plant them and maintain the plantings and for how long ...

I would say NO to a job involving ivolving a giant clown with miniature roses in the mouth ---

This job just went sour every step of the way because they client did not cooperate - always thought they knew better or had better and cheaper solution - and were sure that pouring 2 pounds of Nitrophoska fertiliser on every rose plants would make them thrieve ...

Mind You - I had giving them printed intructions about HOW to plant potted roses - ammend the soil - and how to care for the roses the first years.

I had made them a drawn garden plan - with plan suggestion that would give them the result they wanted ... I make client sign this plan - so that if they later make changes - choose differently or space plants differently and don't like it - well who can they blame?

I have helped so many create beautiful new garden with roses - but this couple - were not tachable or listened or willing to take any counsin at all. Like some write - why did they hire me at all? In 3-8 weeks their roses are going to be dead ...

As much as helping people fulfill their dreams - WEll A RED or ORANGE Mme Alfred Carriere does not exist ... I am not a magician ... there are some alternatives - and I suggested those - but they will never be a red or orange MAC since they have other qualities ....

Of course I discuss the details - who is going to supply what - I gave them a list of materials for the arches with dimensions and they chose something else ...

The educative part - showing them how the different roses looked in different locations in our niehbourhood and rosegardens - that some climbers only became 6 feet tall here because of lack of hardiness ... and how 3-4 year old or older specimens looked ...wer wasted on them .... they refused to acknowledge what the saw - because EXPERT on the internet said something else - so we even visited some of these experts - and saw these rose ... that they were unable to cover arches here ....

I guess I am "mean" like Monarda. I can not turn a 2 feet tall orange hybrid tea into "an orange Mme alfred Carriere" - which according to these clients make me an ignorant imcompentent fool in a few weeks - when they see MY 3 recommendations on the garden plan ...

So In the future I will test the waters bettter and make sure to avoid clients like these ... I am very unhappy with the job I did ... they are going to be very unhappy ...and their roses are most likely to die ... and it pained me.
Part of any job - besides making some money is to be proud fo the end result - and this a horrible disaster ... Even though I tried everything I could to prevent it ... like he just kept pouring pound after pound of that chemical fertilizer when I digged the holes ... even after I told him not too ... and to plese read the planting instructions I had printed for them ...

This couple was not willing to listen - not willing to follow the advice and garden plan I worked and they agreed and signed ... and soon their plant are as dead as their dream of a rosegarden ... and Yes I am sure I will get blamed - so lesson learned - leave clients this headstrong earlier in the process ... when it becomes obvious that they have no intention to follow your advice, plans or use the materials and plants you agreed on - on the garden design plan. ... These were bad --- but I have had one change his mind 3 times ... and spend a fortune every time ... he painted his wholw house like 4 times before he could decide on the final colour for example .... And box hedges grew too slow ... he expected them trimmed and royal castle like in 3 months ....

All in all - I think the lesson I have learned is - say no to more people - say no to bored people with too much moeny - who never get pelased with anything or have the patient to see a plant gorw up and mature ... the wage/money is simply not worth it - I am proud of my work and this is an example of a disaster ... Something that turned ugly, garrish and worng - but could have been so much better ... I am sure they will say that is now what we wanted - BUT it was! And they are So going to get it... and it makes me sad.

Niels, I feel for you, dear. I have a sneaky suspicion that you are correct ... when these roses die, you will be getting a phone call from these people and the nightmare will continue. Or, worse, the roses don't die like they should ... and you come off looking like you don't know your business. I'm really sorry that you went through this. So much effort, and so much stress, for a result that you cannot possibly feel proud of.

I don't design customers' gardens, but I supply the roses for their gardens. Many customers know what they want to accomplish, but don't have any idea which roses to use in their plan. I spend lots of time with some folks, asking questions and trying to discern their tastes and conditions, before I make rose recommendations. I feel the pressure of making suggestions that will live up to the customer's expectations. In the end, it is up to the customer to choose the right rose for their garden, and to care for it properly. If it works, I'm a hero ... if it doesn't, I'm the dog. I don't want to be the dog. Being the hero is much better.

Connie

It's very frustrating when people ask advice and then do their own thing. We worked with some people who have a private plot at the edge of the cemetery rose garden, and who said they wanted yellow old roses to plant. After discussing the yellow-ish old roses that were possible, we showed them older HTs that might suit them and that were brighter yellow. We offered to propagate or obtain the roses for them, but they assured us they could handle it. Well, they planted two roses labeled Cinco de Mayo - one is, the other is some other garish red-orange. It's THEIR plot, it's THEIR choice, and it's far enough to the edge of the rose garden that it doesn't even clash too terribly, but the worst part is that Barbara and I spent hours (for which we, as volunteers, were not reimbursed) only to have our advice ignored.

Even though you were paid, Niels, I understand the frustration. Yes, it's up to the clients to make the final choice but if things don't work out, it makes you look bad.
Anita

I am no longer so hungry that I have to put up with people like that. If they are nice people I just lie and say I have a family emergency and don't have time right now and then I never call them back. If they are not nice people, I tell them flat out we are different wavelengths and they need to find someone else. But for the most part, I have been lucky. Most of my clients give me a general idea of what they want and let me do my job.

If you're telling them to amend planting hole backfill you are telling them wrong.

Business relationships are not casual ones, here is a maxim that Ive learned over years..

"ITS OK TO FIRE A CUSTOMER"

Do not mix business with pleasure.. I would not work for friends. Its your job to accommodate a customers demands as long as they are reasonable about paying them, your job is to give advise , give directions, give your honesty. If they ignore it that's their fault not yours niels. I wouldnt fret over much, but communicate your frustration to the client. I.E. "MR. CUSTOMER, I want to be up front to you with your decisions, these are not the best choices for our climate, they will recieve a lot of winter damage, if you still wish to plant them, lets do it. But you might have to replace next year. or this "MR. CUSTOMER, I understand what you looked up online about roses being greedy feeders and they are.. but what you are putting on them is 10X what you need, if you wish to do it, lets do it, but please relize this might kill them."

Bill them for thier hours and move on!

Silverkelt

It's somewhat typical, isn't it? I have close friends in the nursery bussiness and in garden design. I don't know how they deal with it. I can't.

Think All Creatures Great and Small.

The customer is always right.

I used to be a portrait photographer and always discussed clothing colors and patterns when photographing a family group so that the faces dominated not a clash of color/pattern. Most people listened and had beautiful results.

But one of our favorite families, photographed several times over the years, looked like they dressed in the dark with clothes from Goodwill. Very large wall-sized portraits purchased every time. Delightful loving family.
Yes we signed our names to their portraits.

Who says I'm right and they are wrong?

But since you own your business if you want full control over what plants are selected and how they are planted you can do that.
I am of the "Live and let live" philosophy except when it clashes with my personal ethics. That's another thing altogether.

I am not a garden designer but I once gave a Seagull rambler to a friend when my husband and I visited her cottage in the country. The garden is large but the house is a very small one-bedroom house with a kitchenette, about half as tall as the ultimate size of a mature Seagull in her very benign climate. She was very pleased with the gift but wanted to plant it near the back door. I told her the rose will get as wide as the house and much taller and would make it impossible for her to use that door in a few years. I suggested she put it next to the woodshed which is larger than the house. She insisted and my husband helped her plant it. I took a walk, I couldn't stand and watch. I was glad that she would at least have the front door. Two years later she called me to ask if roses could be moved? I am not mad at my friend, only at myself for not being more insistent and at my husband for not backing me up. He knew as well as I that this wouldn't work.

TY for you perspective and sympathy ... the money I was paid would not cover the same advice by a therapist, since they charge more than I do :-)))

Campanula - I learned early out to handle the initial client contact - Clients always pay a fee for the first visit and the work it takes to draw the first simple garden plan- interview, measurements, site inspection, Soil tests (if needed) , and I take many digital pictures. On the 2. visit I present them the different suggestions and choices. 1. and 2. visit is always prepaid. If they want a very detailed and more extensive garden plan they also pay upfront for that - for the hours it takes for me draw the plan, budget, cost estiments and make the plant portofolio map with care instructions for the plants used.

Cass describe it well - that some clients don't know what they want ... and it really is my job to help them sort this out. Most do however know - but had not considered other options and solutions - because they have never seen that before. I was actually thinking about one of your roses - doing this job Cass - the image I had in my mind of your beautiful "Compassion" rose in full bloom ... Here we can not use it for arches - not hardy enough but great against walls ...

With garden design there is not many" one size fits all" solutions. As you know - it depends on the site - and the people - their skills and the level of maintainance they are willing/able to provide a part of their garden. Some looks and designs can be duplicated- but plants are not plastic ...

Like York Rose and Mariannese writes - by experience we know/have learned that a Grand Danoise will not thrieve in a studio apartment in Greenwich willage - and by experience we know how big Seagull becomes (Not a good choice for and indoor potted plant in the same studio apartment either -but then again some exclaim - The customer is always right ... when we work with people we simply know that is not true ... And like Silverkelt describes - it takes good communication skills to tell them this ...

When that orange Hybrid Tea they planted at the arbor fails - to grow into "An orange MAC" and cover the arch and call me and complains - I will show them the garden plan that they signed - were I recommended "Westerland" ... but like you know the roses will most likely not survive the fertilizer burn ...

It is sad when people do not take the advice of specialists - like Anita And Mariannese and probably most experienced rose growers here have experienced. People sometimes are like children -. ask for advice and then do what they want - and later realize - they should have listened - just to do it again and again - eventually they/we grow up.

One could never work with these jobs if we were not passionate about what we are doing - want our clients - to succeed and be happy with the results. Connie even have a much shorter time counseling people - about the choice of roses - I at least have the luxury of seeing the site - it takes great experience and ability to listen - before we come up with suggestions that will work. In the end, it is however the people who are going to live with the choices they made. However much it pains us.

Niels, I'm so sorry for your traumatic experience with these intractable clients. Since I've never seen you write anything remotely like this in length or depth of emotion, I must assume that it is a rare experience - thankfully. May I suggest that you count up all the jobs you've done and also how many fit into this nightmare category. If the percentage of bad is 5% or less, maybe it's best to just let go of this one, chalk it off to a once-in-a-lifetime thing, and let the peace that normally fills your life refill it. It's really not worth the suffering of this much aggravation and turmoil. It's one of those things that is so far out of your control at this point that you have to say, "OK, it hurts my pride but I accept having done one really bad job in my career (without the reasons) because I'm just not perfect, but I'm not going to be hurt by this anymore" and be done with it. Then go rest in your beautiful, romantic garden and forget the whole thing - and watch your blood pressure, sweetie.

Sherry

Well, maybe next year they will call you up and say "Niels, you were right and we were wrong!" Now do it again your way, and we will pay you and keep our mouths shut because you are the expert and we are not!"

Sometimes that happens. Really, sometimes it does. :)

It usually seem to take a few years - if it happens at all.

If you pay attention, this is a chronic problem in any of the more challenging rose climates. People 'do their research', and are told many, totally unrealistic things. The 'local experts' try to dissuade them, and point them in a more constructive direction, but it doesn't agree with what they want to hear, so they don't hear it.

LOL Sherry you are so right! It has been the only job I have had that went so wrong ... I did have a very difficult client - that changed his mind 4 times ... and had to be persuaded A LOT (retaining walls - had to be done by pro's - it was not a DIY project ... etc. every details had to be discussed - but hey they ended up been very happy - and me too - even though the process was hard ... people might be big bosses professionally - but no one can boss plants/roses around - they do not jump if you say so ...

Hoovb - In a perfect world it does! --- but more likely - I will be very busy - and have lot of family emergencies the next years ... like Catsroses suggested ...

Mad Gallica - you know what I am getting at - imagine if some some of your neighbours wanting to grow orange HT's ... Good luck ... it will the school of hard knocks.

Well in colder climates it also always is a problem, that people want to have HT's a size of 5x5 shrub, with gorgeous florist rose blooms. It just does not exist, at least not in z4-5 climates. If you can even find a rose that comes close to that kind of bloom, it won't ever have a habit they wish to see. You can, of course, grow something like that in a greenhouse, but that as well is not something they would consider doing. So they keep buying roses that won't ever do well for them, and then blame the roses, not their ignorance, for the failure.

It is very difficult to change the mind of such people, because they forget everything they heard as soon as they see blossoms on the rose bands in the local nursery.

I really hated rose shopping with my mother on that regard, since she would never listen to the explanations, that there are different classes of roses and that HTs need at least good winter protection (which she was lazy to do) to survive. It does not help also that OGRs, having different kind of bloom, also get disregarded as "wild rose", which translates into not garden worthy. We even had some kind of HT/floribunda in the garden, that was doing fairly well, but it was somewhat neglected as a lesser rose, because it did not have fragrant red roses on a long stem, just like what you buy from the flower stand. Argggh, sometimes it is just hopeless.

Because I put in such an enormous amount of work for my customers, and often remain to do regular maintenance, Some of their gardens I regard as 'mine' - I grow spare plants and divisions for them and often stay longer than my billed hours. But, there are others where we are happy to do the job, get paid and go. One thing we have learned is to never, never do a half job because the customer wants to finish themselves and save money. years ago, we built a porch for some people, complete with stained glass - it was beautiful but, they insisted that they wanted to do all the finishing them selves. We gave them extensive advice how to do this - what fillers, primers and paints to use etc. A couple of weeks later, we went back to collect some tools and nearly wept when we saw the tragedy - they had not sanded, not filled, nor primed but just painted over.....and you could still see old footprints on the timber! These same people also would not let us have a key and the one time we needed access to the house whilst they were at work, they got their parent to sit in the house in case we robbed anything. We took our money, and our wood and left after doing only the front porch and didn't bother attempting a pergola in the back garden - I also made a point of peeing on the front lawn since a toilet was denied us! Now they really were bastards! Bad taste and impetuous planting comes nowhere in my 'black book' compared to being suspected of being dishonest.
Hey, Niels, too late for me now - I am clearly a soft touch but on the other hand, we don't work for rich people, just impecunious arty types or academics.....and the poorer they are, the better they tip and the more appreciative they seem to be. You can't have it everyway but, on the whole, i am happy with what we have.

Campanula, I simply cannot imagine the imhumanity of people denying others the basic civilities of bathroom privileges; it simply boggles my mind.

Two years ago while in the midst of a massive kitchen remodel, we had a major medical emergency with our grandson and had to travel to Chicago and stay there for a week. Our contractor, who is a wonderful guy, simply told us to go and he would take care of everything in our absence. I handed him a spare set of house keys and we left. When we came home, everything was on schedule and there were no problems.

I really appreciate my contractor; he only has a couple of guys working for him but he's punctual, honest, and above all, I VALUE his advice. We have continued to use his services on several projects and I'm always happy to pass along his business card to others looking for a good contractor.

We had a crew of three men to redo the drainage of our house. They worked very fast and on their last day, a very hot one, I made a cake and invited them for coffee in the garden. The boss stared at me, and shouted so loud that I had to take a step back: "This is a proper household!". The reason for this outburst was that according to him nobody gives workmen anything anymore. They'd worked three months for some people without getting so much as a glass of water. It didn't use to be like that, he said. I think this was very sad.

Niels, you will have to become a famous garden designer! And soon, too! :-) Nobody interferes with the designs of Ulf Nordfjell, Dan Pearson or Diarmuid Gavin. I do wish you could help me with my garden because I know your style will suit me to a T.

Campanula - it is sad to have clients like that - turning something that could have been good into something hidoeus ,,, and slooppy anndjust to save a few pennies - not worth it.I maintain gardens and house-sit million dollar homes - without any problems.

Mariannese - it wold take a higher horticultular degree to be able to get the get the sponsors Ulf Nordfejll and his ilk gets - I would only be able to help you get the dream garden YOU want. I am also more sure you know what you want - but may have overlooked some possibilities. I just know that any garden - anywhere can become gorgeous out-door rooms - with memories that will last a lifetime. You have the skills and knowledge to build on and may only need "a look on what you have" and clarify /envision what you are aiming for and some advice vhere to go from her to there to fullfill those dreams.

Well, Terryjean, it was back in the day when we were still starting out and felt we had to put up with anything and, in truth, this pair were the only customers who behaved so appallingly. Working in someone's home or garden is an intimate relationship and without trust and transparency, it is simply not possible to do a fine job under bad circumstances. Now, after working for 7 years, we have a core of lovely customers. For sure, we do get the odd mean one who is not willing to spend anything on the garden apart from our labour - this is discouraging as all gardens need an investment in time and money. We also do a couple of complete design and build jobs - these give us a chance to earn more money since we are usually working many more hours and after doing them, we can down tools for a few weeks and catch up on our own gardening - pretty good life, by and large but we are never gonna get rich (we're cheapskates,anyway).

Niels..........

You always find some nasty clients with money and the inability to work with anyone with expertise in any area of their lives when you are self-employed. The best thing you can do is to say, "I see you have done your homework and decided what really suits your vision. I think you have reached the stage where you don't need a garden designer any more. I'll just drop off my last invoice tomorrow." Boom you are out of there.

The only clients you can keep are the ones that like your style. The rest will drive you to where you are not the person you want to be in this world. No amount of money is worth sacrificing your own standards as to how to create the content of your life.

Personally, I think I would drive you bonkers. I don't have a bit of visual insight. Looking at other gardens truly would not help as I live in mountain town and an elevation change of just 200' feet changes the timing of bloom of a given plant. Even in my own garden, the same plant placed out front will bloom earlier than the plant at the top of slope in back.

Yes, I would love to know that I have more options, but since I can't visualize the end result, I'd drive you nuts !

The gardens are coming together slowly, with plenty of mistakes, but I have decided all gardens are a work-in-progress and mine will just take a bit longer to get to the point where everything works together.

I truly wish you well and hope you continue to fill your client list with people you enjoy.

Smiles,
Lyn

You have my sympathies for sure. In gardening, the customer is definitely NOT always right: there are the realities of plant behavior that are one of the bases of gardening, and that can't be wished away. An Italian proverb says, "The herb 'I want!' doesn't grow even in the garden of the king". And they sound like the kind of people who will blame you for the garden not being the garden of their dreams. Your putting your knowledge at their disposal to help them plan a garden they'll love, which you do, is completely different from imposing your own tastes on them, which you don't do. Well, better luck next time!
Melissa

After reading your post I would suggest asking yourself just how badly did you need the money? Clients aren't always right and yes it is an acceptable practice to fire them. Why? Because your professional name and reputation is on the line. You know very well there is a good chance they will blame you when the roses die and fail to perform to their expectations. That is why you are worrying so much. I would too, if I were in your situation.

Patrick - I needed the money! Very few people use garden designers - most garden designers here are Landscape Architects and are very expensive to employ - so people rarely use them.
And you are right - I should have been more assertive with these clients and used some of the advice I have gotten here - about handling difficult clients. It just still baffles me that they did not do just one thing right, followed any of the instructions, bought the right materials and even worse - DID not buy even a single one of the roses I recommended and drowned the potted roses in more Bayer NitroPhoska fertilizer than water.

I got an email yesterday - they had bought 6 more roses (All fluorescent reddish-Orange blend HTs) - still not any of those on the plant list we worked out together - that we drove around and saw and that they really liked! And that I knew would do better (Compassion, Ghislaine de Feligonde, Alchymist, Charles Austin, Frlingsduft ... for example). I told them that I did not have time this week to come help them ... because I work on 2 other gardens at the moment. (2 small court yard gardens). I better get going ... I have total freedom to do these as I want - they are going to be really nice and the owners are so excited and happy now that the perennial weeds are gone and the hardscaping has been done.

You hate them? You really HATE some of them? Did you solicit their patronage? Did you accept the job? People are weird, eccentric, maddening, idiotic, moronic (but often wonderful). If the downside of business is more emotionally debilitating than the upside is rewarding, then do yourself a huge favor and find another endeavor. Life, afterall, is far too short and much too ephemeral to court misery. I'm really bummed, Cupshaped, to think of you as being so disconsolate . . . What absolutely fabulous something has happened in you life lately? I just know that there's been SOMETHING stupendous -- what is it?

The problem Jax - is that when you say YES to this kind of job - you can not foresee the problems down the line. I Sure hope those folks are going to enjoy all the roses they bought - that I did not recommend - since it is their responsibility and choice. I just hate the fact that a garden turned or will turn into??? Well not much - I guess when it could have been great.

Only "fabulous thing" that has happened in my life lately is that I lost 105 pounds in 6 months and can run 4 miles now ... and that I am getting in shape and can work hard again - I love it!!!! ! And some days feel so hot and gorgeous and that I can barely keep my hands away from myself. Oh and my private garden is smashing this year ...

Maybe the changes on a personal level have changed me too - I do not let people treat me as a door mat anymore - I have become more assertive - and I am pursuing my goals more than I ever did - creatively - my writing has taking off big ! I am blossoming - I can stand on my own 2 now - and what I have learned from this is experience is to say NO more in the future. And unleash my creative energy - whether as a writer or as a garden designer ... Thanks!

Uh, the issue of contractors, tea and cookies, and using the lou isn't as clear cut as you may think. Here, in Northern California, my experienced contractors, and I've worked with quite a few for more than 25 years, would rather soil themselves than walk into a home to ask to use the lou. It just isn't done if one is a professional, and those that do are considered the rankest amateurs. Same with water or any other refreshment. Contractors come prepared to work in all weather conditions with appropriate nourishment. The General Contractor must supply a portable toilet if the work last longer than a week. People paid $75 or $90 an hour don't sip tea and eat cookies on the clock.

I've insisted and handed out many, many glasses of water when it gets hot. We have a reverse osmosis filtering system, so the water is purer than bottled water, no chlorine, almost no minerals. The responses are interesting. The nonprofessionals, or those who don't know the local custom, often astound me by asking for bottled water instead. The pros always refuse it unless it's a wickedly hot day approaching 100℉ and they've exhausted their coolers of water toward the end of the afternoon.

It's good to know the local customs and practices. They aren't always obvious.

Ah, but we are not General Contractors and we certainly do not charge $75-90 per hour. It sounds harsh and horrible that a human need to use a lavatory when working in someones home or garden, is regarded as rank amateurism and makes me wonder exactly what they might mean by professionalism. My concept of professionalism is based upon competence, experience and honesty - not an iron bladder.

"It sounds harsh and horrible that a human need to use a lavatory when working in someones home or garden, is regarded as rank amateurism..."

A nice thought in principal, but when you have a contractor come in at the end of the day to use the lavatory and completely plug it up & flood the bathroom, then leave it with the door closed and the exhaust fan on for you to clean up EVERYTHING--not just water--and he doesn't even tell you that it happened...or the contractor who misses the toilet entirely and urinates on the floor, leaving it for you to clean up...you don't exactly get to be the happy camper about people using your facilities. And that doesn't even begin to address those coming in with muddy workboots on the carpet, or heavy shoes filled with grit and rocks that scratch your wood floor to the point where you have to make repairs.

Yes, all of these have really happened to me--they aren't just "what ifs".

Sure Berndoodle - local customs and traditions are nice - like the fingers I got Up my bum in Chicago Airport. And the midwestern genous shrink charging me 300 dollars an hour without even breaking a sweat ( I think it was -10 outside) before ordering a 5000 dollar brain scan ... Dare I presume they had water at the right temperature - correlated with the outdoor temps and whether it was appropriate or they asked Jesus for permission and blessing the salt of the earth before sipping ...before they charged my Visa?

"It sounds harsh and horrible that a human need to use a lavatory when working in someones home or garden, is regarded as rank amateurism and makes me wonder exactly what they might mean by professionalism. My concept of professionalism is based upon competence, experience and honesty - not an iron bladder."

I think it kind of depends on the people and their experience with previous contractors or general level of being paranoid. When you hire somebody without knowing them, it always is a gamble what you are going to get, some indeed take pride in being honest, some can steal things from the house. Beforehand it is hard to know, so it is not all too strange that people have somebody to supervise just to make sure that you are not destroying their property.

Last year for example I had to constantly keep an eye what road workers were doing around our garden, since at some point they just dug up holes in the middle of my flower beds looking for some pipe, left all the plants just lay there in a sun, piled up like weeds. If nobody was at home at that point, they would have just simply dug up a trench through most of our front garden, without any warning or discussion. So to rely on a common sense of general contractor, or at least of the peons employed, is not always a very good thing.

Then regarding the toileting and food, it is also something that highly depends on personal views on a matter. You kind of know where you are going to work and that WC might be not available - but there are solutions like chemical toilet in a back of a van, etc.

With food also there are local customs, for example here it is very odd to offer people something else than a cup of coffee. Even if a family eats at the point when somebody is working in the house and they stop for lunch, they always bring their own sandwich and just take a cup of coffee. In Eastern Europe, where my family comes from, that is completely different, there it would be very odd not to offer food for your worker and if somebody is working for you whole day, it is somewhat proper to give them a proper meal.

I also made a point of peeing on the front lawn since a toilet was denied us!

That's pretty funny! Here guys tend to just work shorter days, or vanish for a couple hours at lunch. If it is a substantial job, a port-a-potty is mandated by law. If anyone asks, they are welcome in my house, but they have to take their shoes off. That I suppose prevents a...a... splashing problem somewhat.

local customs and traditions are nice - like the fingers I got Up my bum in Chicago Airport.

Would like to hear more. Knowing Chicago, they probably charged extra for that.

oh yeah - the gender thing. I am betting that ALL men would simply pee behind a bush but for me, a 53 year old woman, this is not really such an option. This thread about contractors could run and run - as Elemire points out, different circumstances mean one rule does not fit all. We have come across some nasty class issues and I am absolutely sure racism raises its ugly head. There is often a kind of sneering nastiness that builders are somehow uncouth, uncivilised and do not need to be accorded the same decencies awarded to a GP or a solicitor or a teacher....and in a number of cases, this stereotype appears to be well-founded. However, we do have a relationship with our customers whether we work on their garden over months and years or whether we just do a project then leave....a relationship which implies a level of respect on both sides - obviously, if I do need to pee, the workboots come off. Interestingly, most of our customers give us a key to the house since they are usually at work. We can make drinks (we provide our own) and shelter from rain if we wish (although we tend to sit in our van). What we have learned is to negotiate details at the start of the job and especially emphasise how we might differ from other workers (we are not super-fast, we have to maintain our regular customers (we usually work three days a week on a long project)we will usually ask for material money up front as we are a small business and cannot afford to pay for materials....but we then transfer our trade discounts direct to the customer, unlike many workers who can make substantial profits from material charges. If the worst came to it, we are always free to walk away - and have done once. I guess all we ask is to be treated like individual people without prior assumptions and, in return, we will do likewise, showing respect to you and your property (and, in many cases, your neighbours).

" If anyone asks, they are welcome in my house, but they have to take their shoes off. That I suppose prevents a...a... splashing problem somewhat. "

Funny that you mention that, it is great idea to prevent "drowning cat in a toilet" syndrome. :D

At my last job I worked with abouts 70 guys in same office, roughly in the age range of 20-35. Oh boy, now that was a task to keep all that office to look like an office and not a barn! It was somewhat better in the toilets when it was a summer and they wore slippers, but our administrator had to constantly write all team e-mails about toilet and table manners! :D

Lyn, I'm writing this one down, it will work in LOTS of different circumstances with a little adjustment here and there:

"I see you have done your homework and decided what really suits your vision. I think you have reached the stage where you don't need a garden designer any more. I'll just drop off my last invoice tomorrow."

hoovb - It was my understanding that it was "complimentary" - my sincere gratitude to immigration and Home Land Security. Pretty sure they were Jealous of my "Dr. House meds" - but I had prescription for the them - so nothing more happened.