I have never gardened in your climate. Having said that, the condo property where I live had an unidentified rose I believe to be a hybrid musk growing for many years along a fence where it hardly received any sun. Three years ago I moved it to a nearly full sun location, and just at this moment it has several hundred 2" medium to pale pink double flowers just covering it. It's also nearly thornless. I'm hoping to see a second flush from this rose later this summer or in September.

Count me a fan!

(PS: This rose is scentless, but many of the earliest hybrid musks were specifically bred for fragrance as well as beauty.)

The thing is, you mention that the teas, chinas, and noisettes are the most popular, "and for good reason." Most of those roses aren't hardy here, so I have no way to compare them to hybrid musks! The hybrid musks are very useful for areas where too much shade narrows the choice, but in your case, when they'll be getting afternoon sun, you may also want to consider which varieties have a tendency to quickly lose their delicate coloring in hot sun. ('Buff Beauty' does, I'm afraid.) Hope this is helpful.

I grow many - - let me count - - 15 or so, many more different varieties - - in a climate and in soils they like. I classify them my way, things like Lyda Rose, Marjorie Fair, Darlow's Enigma and Excellenz von Schubert I consider Hybrid Musks. I have a number of modern HM's bred by Louis Lens, a favored group of Pemberton musks, and scattered HM's that are often classified as shrubs but are really HM's.

They look best left to grow out as vase-like, arching plant or large bushy shrubs e.g. Darlow's Enigma. They are essentially once- or spring and fall bloomers, no matter what anyone tells you. Sure, there's a scattered bloom here and there, but nothing like the profusion for which they are known. They are, after all, mostly hybrid multifloras. They have, by and large, wonderful scent.

I do not grow many in shade. I have Darlow's Enigma growing on a north-facing wall. I have the shrub Lavender Dream (a couple) growing in the conditions you describe: house shade until the sun is high enough reach them on the west side of the house. They are fine but not nearly so happy as roses that get morning sun until 1 or 2 PM and then house shade the rest of the day. We have no blackspot here, so I offer no assessments. A few have a bit of powdery mildew. None rust. Many bear excellent hips in the winter.

I have Penelope and she is doing well in a morning shade, afternoon sorta sunny location. Also have a mis-labeled Felicia who I believe is really Clare Martin - same location and both tough as nails, no spray, etc. Is Reines des Violettes a hybrid musk? If so, then she is my favorite of the ones I have - great scent, nice color, no-spray, etc.

Just ordered Buff Beauty from RU last week and was told I got their last one. After viewing boisemom's photo sure glad I did. Think I'll get Penelope next.

I am far from a zone 9, but in case anyone is interested,
I have Ballerina, Bouquet Parfait, Darlow's Enigma,
Kathleen, Lavender Lassie, Nymphenburg, & Sally Holmes.
Bouquet Parfait & Nymphenburg are too young to comment
on rebloom,(although there was a small second flush on Bouquet Parfait) but the others, especially Kathleen, Ballerina, Darlow's Enigma, and Sally Holmes do rebloom, and they are even more beautiful in autumn, the colors much
stronger. Lavender Lassie does not have a strong rebloom,
but does have some. when she is done blooming i will cut
her back(i usually don't)and see if there is a difference.
I wonder if zone has anything to do with their rebloom?

My Ballerina and Sally Holmes are more of a 'mounding'
shape. Lavender Lassie is stiff and on a trellis..not sure
how that would look freestanding. Kathleen, is beautiful
and graceful. Oh and my Sally Holmes is on a pillar.

Thanks. Boisemom, you're Buff Beauty is to die for! I think that is one of the ones I heard won't bloom very well, so maybe it doesn't like our heat. Still, I know that everyone has different situations and micro-climates, so it still may be worth a try!

I'm sure many of them would hve to be considered a white rose here because of fading. Our UV is quite strong. I have wondered how Belinda would do, or Skyrocket, as they are brightly colored and would therefore add some color.

Are there any that bloom on laterals, and not just the tips?

Belinda here has good blackspot resistance and does rebloom, as long as she is kept growing. It is mostly tip bloom, like big heads of phlox.

Kathleen for me blooms on laterals in spring, then terminally on major shoots, huge panicles now and again, quite noticeable, but not a big show. This might also be a no-spray rose in Florida. It makes a nice large low-arching shrub if you remove the strong laterals after blooming. No blooms in the dirt; in fact, the growth is stiff and rather intractable. Beautiful large foliage.

Lav. Lassie has poor repeat and is susceptible to blackspot.

I've seen old, neglected plants of what I think were Skyrocket. The habit seemed like it wanted to be upright. I didn't notice any repeat, but the plants were abused.

Thanks again. Anyone have any comments about Cornelia? She sure looks pretty in pictures!

Climate might be everything with the HM's. I grow several and get almost constant bloom on them-Nymphenburg, Lavender Lassie, Feliia and Buff Beauty have similar growth-akward gawky but covered with blooms. Buff Beauty to me has the more attractive look. Cornelia is a small flowered HM and reblooms well here but I have heard that is not always the case. My personal favorite is Pax-butterfly like large white flowers very fragrant-but still a gawky grower. I grow them with no support but they would be happier with some-they are good on a wall I think or short pillar. No disease issues here in blackspot land.

patricia

Anyone have any comments about Cornelia? She sure looks pretty in pictures!

*** She's very nice here in coastal Southern Calif., Sandy. Doesn't like hard pruning! I learned THAT the hard way. We pruned her hard, and she didn't bloom hardly at all for maybe 3 years.

Repeats well, now that she's back to blooming. Doesn't mildew. Doesn't rust.
She does a neat trick from time to time, when buds develop in cool weather and open in sudden heat, she blooms in a range of shades that look sorta "calico."
Graceful. I have her on a trellis, and I think she'd rather mound, but -- where she is, the trellis is her fate.

Jeri

I adore Buff Beauty and on the basis of my experience with it, would be happy to try other hybrid musks.

Yeah, they can be sprawling, but OTOH you wouldn't put an HT against a wall and expect it to scramble up it, either, right? Each plant has a typical growth habit and we always choose the right spot for each. (Or try.) I suppose if your garden consists of regimented rows of similarly sized shrubs, then a hybrid musk wouldn't fit in well.

Hi Sandy,

When I vacationed in Florida last March, I visited with a wonderful lady who grows HMs in her garden. They were absolutely beautiful and healthy. You could contact her directly for more specific information.

Kathy

Here is a link that might be useful: Country Care Roses

Ok, you got me started on hybrid musks.
Felicia is a fantastic rebloomer. It is the sturdiest, most upright hm I have. It blooms in huge flushes, rests a few weeks and does it again just as heavily, or close to it as the first flush in spring. It does it all season. It has an intense, delicious fragrance. One time I gave two roses to someone to sniff...Abe Darby and Felicia. They thought Felicia was the more fragrant. It can get a little bs. But it's a wonderful plant.
Felicia:
{{gwi:287805}}

Cornelia needs support IMO but I think the blooms are a pretty nice medium size. Not as fragrant as Felicia but not a sloucher. Rebloom not as good.

Cornelia:
{{gwi:287807}}

Lavender Lassie is a huge plant, best with support. It is not very stiff but not on the ground either. Mine is getting better rebloom every year but it is not the workhorse Felicia is. STill it puts them out. NOt bs free but not too bad. Husband thinks it has good fragrance..it's pretty good to me.
Lavender Lassie:
{{gwi:287809}}

Ballerina is another workhorse, gets some bs, has an upright but arching shape. That is, the canes will reach up then arch over.

Ballerina:
{{gwi:287811}}

Agree that Buff Beauty has a tendency to sprawl. Same with Penelope. So far my Penelope is a nice low plant and I like it being wider than tall. Same for Marjorie Fair. Long low canes.

Danae is also a sprawler here.
Sally HOlmes is too young to comment on but looks pretty bs resistant so far.
Nur Mahal is upright and has a great spring flush with lesser rebloom afterward. Some bs.
Gartendirektor Otto Linne, ( not sure he's a hm but I think so) is a fantastic repeater with big flushes all season. VERY healthy, and a nice strong pink. Not floppy.
Otto Linne:
{{gwi:287814}}
I like the contrast of large and small blooms which hm's are great for.

HAd Mozart and sp'd due to bs and was too big for spot.

Moonlight is a huge shrub with good health and repeat flushes. Spring is best but it reblooms pretty well.

Moonlight, Nur Mahal, and Aloha:

{{gwi:287816}}
Maybe these plants rebloom best in warm climates.

Linda

Hi Sandy!!! (waving wildly)

I grow Hybrid Musks on their own roots and they are wonderful. My most favorite HM is Clytemestra. This is such a pretty rose. The bush is big and just bows over with bloom clusters. It is always in bloom and not a dab of blackspot. I want to move it in the a more prominent place so everyone can see how pretty it is. You have GOT to get this one!!!
Fellenburg is a beautiful healthy thing too. No blackspot at all and is always covered in blooms for me.
Buff Beauty is very healthy, not as heavy a bloomer as Clytemestra, but still pretty and also makes a good climber.
Felicia is also a pretty bush, V shaped and the smell!!! OH MY, it is the best smelling one of them all to me.
Cornelia is a pretty bush shape, the blooms are big ole clusters and it does get a tad of BS but not enough to matter.

Hope this helps!

Deb

P.S. I know I have more out there, I just can't think of them right this minute.

Sandy,
I can't say much about HMs, so far mine have not been good repeaters. But I would like to say that my whole rose garden is in a morning shade afternoon sun location and the teas, HTs, Austins, Fls, etc, all bloom very well even though they don't get any sun before 1.
In my personal opinion, blooms spring summer and fall (like you get from the teas, with no real pause between flushes) are a lot more desirable than spring and some fall bloom. So far, my HMs aren't even blooming that great in the fall.

Hi Deb, I'm waving back wildly! I wonder how close you live to me? It would be fun to get together sometime.

I appreciate all of the feedback and comments, and Linda, the pictures posted here of your bushes and gardens are breathtaking!

I truly, truly, appprecaite all the help you have all given me. I'm inspired to try a few and see how they do for me.

I wasn't feeling too well for a few days after working out in the heat and humidity here, so haven't done much on the computer. I haven't learned when to quit out there, and I get busy and forget to drink enough water, so... I'm just now really looking over all the answers here.

Sandy

How big is big when talking about Clytemnestra? I just got one own root, as well as Penelope, and I'm debating where to put them. I would love to see a whole bush photo of Cly if you have one, deb.

If Erasmus Cornelia is Cornelia, I wonder what in Heaven's name I have here.
The blooms look the right form, but are a bit softer pink. However, they are perhaps the size of a quarter, in fairly prolific sprays.
It's a nice rose, and it grows as I would expect a HM to grow, tho somewhat more lax than some -- but ?????

Jeri

I've posted this picture here before but this is Prosperity grown in almost the same sun conditions you are talking about. I had it growing on an obelisk but it got too big and so we got another one and built an arch. It blooms tremendously like this in the spring and it is reblooming great right now. I think the rebloom is dependent on a lot of factors. Ours gets people stopping all the time.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:287801}}

These are my favorites among the Hybrid Musks we grow

Favorite white H.Ms
Prosperity
secret Garden Musk Climber
and Darlows Enigma

Favorite yellow "Callisto" its JUne and its in its second flush already.

Pink
"Bubble Bath" for its wafting fragrance. This produced 4 flushes last year. This year it bloomed in Jan, April and is budding up again for another flush.

"Cornelia" I adore its coppery pink hues in the autumn, my favortie Hybrid Musk of all.

Queen of the Musks" should be grown more often, for those who have lots of space. darling red buds open to cream flowers with a bit of red on the edges. can reach over 10 ftx7ft.

Luxrosa

Your Prosperity bushes are beautiful!

I'm a long way from Florida.:-) Cornelia is my favorite so far, though I lost my little band Buff Beauty over the winter. Cornelia at 3" is not a small bloom. It is the only one I grow that doesn't look only semi-double and blowy, like Lavender Lassie, Felicia and Penelope, which have smaller flowers, though they compensate by blooming in big clusters. LL and F were not protected as well from deer and are much smaller, so hard to evaluate. I also have Excellenz von Schubert which is very pretty light purple and is blooming well, but the growth is very vigorous and grew through my wire cage (for deer protection) trapping the cane.

Thanks Sandy! I have been thinking about getting more hybrid musks but this one does blackspot if I don't spray it and it has gotten so big it is hard to spray. I love this quiz from Peter Schneider on Roses:
Joseph Pemberton
a. was an Anglican curate
b. originated the hybrid musk roses
c. lived all his life in a round house with his sister
d. all of the above.

If you answered "d" you are correct.

This has been fun! I really like all the ones mentioned, but they get so large down here and I have space issues. I am assuming that there has to be at least 7 ft. spacing, maybe more? There will definitely have choices to be made. It sounds like Ballerina, Felicia, Cornelia, and Prosperity are the most popular. I'm also thinking of trying Marjorie Fair because I like red so much, and Belinda. I've read Ballerina and Belinda will perform well with a lot less direct sun as long as they have bright light. Has anyone found this to be true?

Hi Sandy,
I live in north central Texas, not as humid as Florida, but probably just as hot. I used to grow Ballerina, but shovel pruned her because she didn't bloom enough to take up the amount of room she commanded. I still have Penelope, Skyrocket, and Felicia, but Penelope and Felicia are naked right now. Blackspot has been worse than ever here with an unheard of cool wet spring and I do not spray. Penelope will keep her spot because she is in a back corner that is out of my direct line of sight. However, Felicia is in a prime location. She is blooming right now, but naked roses in bloom really bug me!! Felicia's roses really bleach out in the hot Texas sun, too. Skyrocket is blooming now (2nd flush), and has about 50% of his leaves. He is the youngest of the bunch, only in the ground for 1.5 years. I think he is going to improve with age. I was smitten with hybrid musks at one time, too. I have now decided that my hot Texas summers are just too much for them to be at their best, even with a few hours of shade. However, I had to plant them and grow them for a while to be convinced that something else would be happier in my garden.

Having said all of that, Skyrocket is a keeper IMO. I wish I could decide about Felicia.....

Cathy

Thanks Cathy,

They may not do great for me either. My hybrid muskss are coming as bands, so they'll be in pots for awhile anyway. Perhaps that way I'll be able to judge somewhat if they're worth planting in the ground or not.

I have a few "difficult" areas that don't receive ideal sun for a china or tea, but I still want a rose there. It might be worth a try with a hybrid musk. I guess you can't tell to you try it. I have an Abraham Darby on the west side of my house that doesn't get sun until about 1:00. He is so extremely happy there-growing by leaps and bounds, and blooming like crazy. I'm thinking of taking out Rosarium Uetersen on the same side and need a bush that will be a nice speciman there. I decided it doesn't necessarily have to be a climber. The trellis can always serve as a backdrop. It also doesn't have to be a hybrid musk, but it will have to be something that will thrive under those conditions.

What areas of the U.S. do the hybrid musks truly thrive in?

Sandy,
I hope the HMs do well for you. I had the exact same train of thought about trying a HM in those less than ideal areas in my garden. I had to try a rose with some shade tolerance in my not-quite-full-sun areas. Maybe you'll have better outcomes than I did.

From reading on this forum, I think HMs are happiest in California, Oregon, Washington state. They were originally bred for gardens in England? (I think.... perhaps someone can correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly). Certainly England has different growing conditions than Texas. It's the darn summer heat and blazing southern sun that washed mine out so badly. And mine didn't have much blackspot resistance. So... I tried them and fell out of love. I still enjoy seeing photos of gorgeous HMs, particularly full bush shots. They are awesome plants!! (but not in my yard!!) LOL

Cathy

Jeri, blooms on my Cornelia are about 2 to 3". I got my plant from Almost Heaven Roses. My picture makes them look a little bigger as it's a close up, but still, they are way bigger than a quarter. I guess there are different Cornelias.

Sandy, I have three Ballerinas, one in a pot, one under a tree, and one in sun. The one in shade is not too bad a bloomer, considering.
Linda

What about Danae?
She's a hybrid musk, right?
Can anyone give any information on Danae?

I have a new Francesca, and so far I really like it - kind of like a young and innocent Lady Hillingdon. The blooms are a lighter shade of LH and fade quickly, but for a young plant there are a lot of them.

Cziga, I can give only my preliminary impressions of my year old Danae. Its growth has been very vigorous, with a dense, wide, arching habit, maybe 6' across at this point. Bloom production has been good for such a young plant and has been more or less continuous since mid April. The deep yellow buds open to 2' or so wide, loosely double blooms the color of orange sherbet and then fade quickly, but not unattractively, to creamy white.

The bad news is that it looks like poor resistance to powdery mildew might be a problem. PM can be a serious problem in my climate and conditions were especially favorable for it this spring, but I managed to keep it down on my other roses. Danae was eaten up by it. Resistance to black spot seems much better, though, and hopefully it will develop better resistance to PM as it matures.

> I guess there are different Cornelias.

*** I can't say that would surprise me.

Jeri

I have Danae but it is very sprawly. Might be more upright in more sun. Mine has good bs resisance and good rebloom. The blooms are small, start out fairly yellow but fade quickly.

I have been really curious about Clytemnestra and Nymphenberg. Am glad to hear Clytemnestra is good. Would like to hear about Nymphenberg and whether it is a strong orange/pink color or just pink. I'd also like to try Jeri Jennings..it looks like a strong yellow. Is it patented?
Linda

That's funny, I thought Danae was a bit of a climber. I'm surprised to hear that she's sprawling. Maybe more of a horizontal climber, like Buff Beauty???

Hi...peeking my shy self out of Lurkville to rave about a seldom mentioned HM because she's just that good.

Bubble Bath is one of the best all around roses I've got, and I've got alot of roses.

Here's why I feel so affectionate towards her...

She's always the first to bloom, even in 1/2 day deep shade. What a harbinger of spring to see her loaded with thousands of pretty pink blossoms! The pink isn't too 'girly' but isn't too 'hot' either. Just simple and strikingly pretty.

She's healthy, healthy, healthy. I don't even have to think about her, even in the shade. She just gets whatever organic yummies I'm feeding the rest of the herd a couple of times a year. And regular water, which she probably doesn't need since she's grown so big, come to think of it.

She's big but not too big, covering the west wall of our pumphouse perfectly. She wouldn't mind being hacked back, but I like her just the way she is.

She's polite and a good neighbor; doesn't mind the interloper clematis I planted at her feet.

And I can't describe the fragrance. It's strong and lovely. And in springtime when I smell her wafting across the vineyard on a still spring morning I know I made it through another winter!

It's also one of the only rose fragrances my husband notices when he's outside working, which says something. (He likes her a lot, too.)

I don't mind that the rebloom never matches that first flush. By then I've got other roses coming on.

I just love her. And I wouldn't part with her for the world.

Is there a reason no one ever mentions Eva? I recently acquired her and am hoping she'll be worthy of the space.

Tiarosa -- Thanks so much for your praise of "Bubblebath." I've been looking at her and couldn't decide. You tipped the balance.

Cat

Cat:

You're quite welcome. Give her time to build up some size, and then step back and enjoy.

I wonder if I can get my 'Junior Enabler' badge at this point? Lt. Enabler? Cub Enabler?

Of course I'm not worthy to snap the spent blooms of those mighty enabling ones who came before, but still, I'm happy enough just to encourage anyone to consider this particular rose!

'Cornelia' is a good one, floriferous and richly colored with comparatively tidy flowers and good foliage. Has been very highly rated in past ARS surveys. Do not know Florida experience.

I have heard good things about Bubble Bath, but not sure about overall performance in Florida. I do know that Cornelia was one of Ken Muncy's favorites, so I will probably try her. I just wish they didn't take up so much room. The teas take a lot of room, and they are my favorite class, followed by some of the chinas. I'm intrigued with the hybrid musks and am going to try a few. I'm guessing if they do well in a pot, then they will probably do good in the ground too. In the pots I can try out different locations and see what they like the best.

Sandy

You might ask the folks at the Antique Rose Emporium, with their experience with roses in the south. They offer a lot of Hybrid Musks.

This information probably isn't very directly useful to you, since a rose's performance depends so much on climate BUT

I wish to put it on the record that

a happy mature plant of 'Cornelia' is one of the most flawlessly beautiful sights in the entire rose kingdom.

Like any work of art it's greater than the sum of its parts.

About the habit of the Hybrid Musks, some have a shrubby self-supporting habit, for example 'Felicia', while others are like pocket ramblers, with flexible canes that are easy to trellis: 'Cornelia' falls into this class. You can grow it without support, but it will lounge, like 'Buff Beauty' in the photo above.

Melissa

Sandy, 'Cornelia' is one of the most beautiful roses I've ever seen. There is a mature one growing at a local garden here in my suburb that rocks.
Jeri, the blooms on this Cornelia are at least 2" wide and maybe even larger at times.
This plant has very few thorns, and naturally arching branches.

Cornelia, growing in a local garden:
{{gwi:287818}}
{{gwi:287820}}

... notice how long and relatively narrow the leaves are (they are oblong in shape).

OK. THAT looks like my Cornelia, Randy.
(Only much, MUCH happier.)

Jeri

Sandy, I am not in Florida but I grow the beautiful Cornelia quite well in former cottonpatch, Alabama, and I was first drawn to the lovely Prosperiy after seeing Tampa Bay Rosarian's on HGTV.

Tiarosa -- Sorry it took so long to acknowledge -- life getting in the way of roses. . . You rate at LEAST Jr. Enabler -- just got Bubblebath and put her in the ground yesterday.

Cat