I received some baby roses that had blackspot on them, which is not uncommon. I never sprayed the rose and the blackspot disappeared in a few weeks. I would never keep a rose that I had to use toxins on in order to keep it looking good. A Mutabilis that I grew in another location did get blackspot even as a mature rose but it just dropped its leaves and grew a new, healthy set. If it's a choice between having a healthy ecosystem in my yard and owning a particular rose that I would have to spray, the rose would be gone in a heartbeat. There are enough roses that will be healthy without spraying to bother with the wimpy ones. That of course is just my opinion; there are many people who do use chemicals. My hope is just that people will educate themselves on the long-term effects of widespread use of toxins before they make that decision for themselves.

Ingrid

I'm with Ingrid.
I guess I'd stop spraying it now.
It takes a while, anyhow, for them to "de-tox."

If it can't make it, so be it. Tough love.

Jeri

I'm with Jeri and Ingrid. I'm basically no-chemical, but I sprayed for bs a bit my first few years here--I was so disheartening--but it didn't really solve anything at the level I was willing to spray. And now I have enough roses that don't get it or get it only lightly, including Mutabalis, so I don't get as hopeless. Instead, the black spotted roses get black listed.

I only grow 5 varieties of roses but I don't spray any of them and they all do fine...some black spot but not much and never seen an what I'd call defoliation at all.....I mean all the leaves or most of them dropping.....

Paul from Alabama

You asked the question, how do you know when to try a rose as no spray. My answer would be to find out what has been successful for other growers in your community. As you are making your purchase, you can find information about the roses.

Sadly, I only this year have decided to go "no spray", and have a huge garden. More than likely I will lose many of my hybrid teas and floribundas that are not Buck.

Sammy

Common sense would tell you that what Sammy says is right.
Unfortunately what works in other no spray gardens in my area doesn't work in my garden. For example, Lamarque and Mme Alfred Carrierre have zero leaves in my garden once it gets hot. I think they are both on the earthkind list. This happens every single year with them - and no they aren't mislabled.
I've only sprayed once this year (actually my husband sprayed) and my healthiest looking roses right now are some of my Austins. And the Buck Prairie Harvest - some other Bucks are naked.
I guess what I'm saying is that if you want to go no spray then just stop spraying. See what roses work no spray in your yard. There's a thread going about Maggie right now - my Maggie stays so covered in blooms that the 50% defoliation she had doesn't really matter.
You may even find (like I have found over the last 3 years with my Austins), that some of your roses are perfectly healthy if sprayed twice a year or so. To me, spraying every 3 months as opposed to every 2, 3, or 4 weeks, is a wonderful compromise and so very worth it to have plants that bloom as much and as fragrantly and for such a long period of time as roses.
I don't know how a "detox" would work. I just don't see how a rose as defoliated as Lamarque and MAC could have leaves all of a sudden after detoxing. Maybe I'm missing something there. My soil is healthy even with blackspot spray (no insecticides). You've never seen so many critters - bird nests, worms, snakes, etc.
Carrie

Yes, BS and mildew are common with new bands. I have not lost one to those problems & don't do anything to treat it.

What I have lost some to is some type of canker - sort of brown stem rot that starts at the top and works its way down. I got one set of bands from a particular nursery that seemed prone to that problem, and I lost almost all of the plants from that particular order over the course of a year. Even the ones that I put into the ground from that order had trouble overwintering (several died), I suspect due to fungal infection. I may try a single fungicide application if I see that brown rot again on a potted band.

I just don't see how a rose as defoliated as Lamarque and MAC could have leaves all of a sudden after detoxing.

*** Carrie, To grow roses without sprays, you must accept the fact that some roses won't make the transition.

Some roses develop resistance to fungal diseases, without the "crutch" of chemicals.
Some do not.

Those roses, well, you must either accept that they look bad, but keep them anyhow -
OR remove them, and plant something with a better no-spray track record.

Jeri

Right but you guys live in the South. Southern California.

Unfortunately, I need to hear what people in South Carolina grow no spray. Olga's no spray list is small, for example. Most of the local RS members here spray everything. But they also grow a lot of HTs.

BTW, Carrie, I am so with you on the spraying frequency. I really would not mind spraying monthly. Every 2 weeks is kind of a pain. I wouldn't spray weekly no matter how appealing the rose.

Yes, Red. I understand that.

But listen -- LISTS from people ANYWHERE will only take you so far.
A rose that is flawless for me may have problems 40 miles north of me.
At a certain point, you're just going to have to try them.
There are no guarantees in life.
There aren't even any guarantees in gardening.

Jeri

Please allow me a momentary pity party about my fungus. I'll get over it.

I never spray for fungus, I will spray something against insects if they really get out of hand, but several years since now.

I go for the theory that when roses is planted in a garden together with other plants, not sprayed and given organic fertilizers there will establish a type of ecological balance that keep the pathogenic fungus under control. I use hot composted organic materials, seaweed, composted cow and horse manure that are full of beneficial microorganisms. When a rose gets established it gets much more resistant. It is a question of patients, varieties, and the amendments that is used. This really makes a difference, and it helps to have a plan for the garden and to do it longterm. The roses and other plants needs time to get established and for a garden to grow in to a natural balance.

Sox,
Three words.
Rose Rosette Disease.

I think taoseeker might be onto something. My roses seem much healthier (so far) in their second season with a little maturity. I haven't seen any evidence of BS or PM at all this year.

This spring we've had aphids and rose slugs, which get sprayed off with water or squished. The birds in my garden seem to help keep everything in balance and I'm also growing many companions among the roses. I haven't noticed any damage done by the insects.

I had a bad experience with Miracle Grow once (I burned a hydrangea) and ever since I've only used an organic alphalpha based fertilizer and composted manure.
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Ann, I don't get that. Please 'splain.

One of the things I was trying to ask is lets say I try a tea that is kind of on the cusp for me to begin with. Say it is a Zone 6a or b and I am trying to see if it will be hardy enough for me. It might last forever or if we get a killer cold winter, it could die. But I would want it to get big enough first so that if it defoliates SOME in the growing season, not all, it won't die. Do you get what I mean?

I would get it budded, and try it more than once if it fails.

Redsox,
I picked most of my roses after reading a lot, books, rose web sites, and here. Asking people around my area just won't work. Most of the old roses grown around here are from years ago and people haven't a clue of what they are. Anyway, I found that in general, a good rose is good in many places. Of course the rose may fail to do well for you, but if a lot of people are singing its virtues, that's probably a good sign. Like Marie Pavie, I bought her because of this forum a long time ago. So many people talked about what a great rose she was, I figured I would give her a try and she has performed exceedingly well for me. Sometimes I take a real gamble like when I bought SDLM. Everyone has always sung her praises, but I knew the hardiness of her was an issue. She does sometimes die back to the ground, but she is vigorous and comes back like a champ every year. So I think besides foliage issues that may arise, you are better off finding the answer to "Is this rose a vigorous grower that will rebound from disease or a hard winter?"
Remy

If a new plant was kinda wimpy and showing some BS, I might spray it lightly to help it along, but by the time it puts out an actual bloom and new leaves, I generally hold off a bit on spraying so that I can determine how disease-resistant it will or won't be in my garden. Of course, I have sometimes had a plant that stayed wimpy the first couple years--they needed help for that time with BS, but by the 3rd year they took off and I held off on spraying. However, most roses will start putting out stronger growth at least in a couple months after being planted in your garden. (NOTE: The plants I'm talking about were called disease-resistant by multiple sources--I don't buy them otherwise.)

Two things I've learned about spraying my roses.
1) Most of my roses only need a couple sprays in the springtime and a couple times in the fall. They are, indeed, quite disease-resistant. Only about 8-10 of my roses need more spraying in the springtime and fall--maybe 4 times each.
2) When it gets really hot (July and Aug) I don't usually need to do any spraying. It's too hot for BS to develop in most cases.

Your conditions may be different than mine, but my point is, find out which ones need more or less spraying, and then limit your spraying only to those that really need it. Don't spray everything just because a spray was scheduled for that day.

Hope you can make sense out of all of that. LOL

Kate

You are surrounded by counties in which Rose Rosette Disease has been reported. If Black Spot can really get to you, RRD will do much worse to the joy of growing roses.

Re your growing conditions: there's a difference between KY and TN that is not often remarked upon. Kentucky most often has wet summers. (People in your area plant annuals in family cemetery plots; down here that would be a waste without twice a week watering.)
You may find that you have the hardiness of Olga and Lori, who also have wetter summers and falls than I do.
My hypothesis is that dry summers impart a hardiness that is better able to survive winter. It seems to explain why I have tea roses when some with similar zones cannot.
Trying roses on better rootstock confounds the problem. Fortuniana pushes growth through winter, not a good thing. A rootstock that makes a bigger plant faster, may inadvertantly make a weaker plant because of over winter losses.
I've seen gardens about forty miles north of you where no canes survive winter. They aren't that much colder than my conditions; their summers are wonderful with lots of rainfall. Their roses don't, I think, slow down at all until the canes are killed by the winds off the Canadian Shield.

I don't know enough to have an opinion, Ann. Last summer was dry as a bone. In addition, the winter was mild and I had very little dieback. This year was a very wet Spring but so far a slightly under average rainfall for Summer. Are you also saying that I would be better off with ownroot? I only have Dr. Huey rootstock, other than 2 containers which are multiflora.

I don't know enough to have an opinion, Ann. Last summer was dry as a bone. In addition, the winter was mild and I had very little dieback. This year was a very wet Spring but so far a slightly under average rainfall for Summer. Are you also saying that I would be better off with ownroot? I only have Dr. Huey rootstock, other than 2 containers which are multiflora.

Well, one question is, what's average? Most of the people here would be completely amazed at how lush and green everything is if they received as much rainfull during a summer as we do during official droughts. We can get more rain from one tropical storm than some places get during an entire year. So we fight blackspot on most roses, but consider watering an odd and unnatural activity.

Teas and chinas, and by extension their descendants, are not particularly programmed for cold dormancy. They are much more attuned to drought. So in an area with wet falls, like here, they tend to put on a significant growth spurt in the fall, reacting to the water, which is just in time to die off from the cold. Drier places, like the midwest, stop or cut down on watering in the fall and don't have this problem. We don't have that option. Over the years, I've figured out that there is about a half a zone difference in rose hardiness between here and say Michigan. I think it's the water that causes it.

That is the sort of thing that comes with experience. It takes time to figure out where you fall on the hardiness continuum.