I thought this would be big news!

Bueller? :-]

Seems like a knee jerk reaction with out much consideration to farmers. The problem isn't the class of herbicides it's a lack of knowledge or lack of communication involved in its use, and I would guess that the vast majority of its use isn't one that ends in compost.

Even as someone who manages pasture and composts the leavings from the animals that graze it I'll be irritated if these herbicides are banned.

Tox, very glad you found and posted this. I've joined others there sending a letter to the EPA. Urge readers of this forum to take the time to do so, if their consciences lean toward doing the right thing.

subk3 - have you read the posted link? Me thinks not.

Rosie, Sugar Hill, GA

Their point was that labeling didn't work - i.e. it's impossible for the stuff NOT to end up in someone's compost. They may or may not be right about that, and I'm certainly in favor of education to get things done right (which is why I hang out at this forum, after all).

I sure wish it could be fixed without hurting farmers or gardeners.

There have been numerous groups asking the EPA to better review many of the pesticides on the market today, but the EPA prefers to accept the manufacturers assurances that the products the sell are safe. On occassion the EPA will, after major problems are reported, investigate and then maybe restrict the sale of those products, rarely outright banning them.
Part of the problem is lack of manpower, and funding, to conduct the research necessary. Most products, that need to satisfy regulations to be sold, rely on the manufacturers research for safety concerns.

Now that sure doesn't sound like the heavy-handed, regulation-issuing, job-killing EPA that we all know and love! What is wrong with this picture? LOL

"subk3 - have you read the posted link? Me thinks not."

Well I read the part where it said "ban the sale" and "place a moratorium." Which part do you think I'm missing? And how long do you think it takes the Federal government to do a review?

Because of drought conditions I have a specific weed problem in about 30 acres of pasture that will respond to one or two treatments of the aforementioned class of herbicide OR 4 or more applications of a herbicide with a much shorter half life.

Anybody think spraying 30 acres 4 or 5 times with a less effective chemical while managing appropriate grazing rotation for the livestock is either insignificant in terms of the cost of fuel, product, man hours or organization and timing? I manage and personally use my compost from the animals that graze these fields and as long as I'm aware of the herbicide situation I have plenty of use for the resulting "bad" compost--just not on my gardens.

And taxcrusader I think it depends on your definition of compost as to whether "everything" ends up as compost. If anything that comes out of the back end of an animal is compost then yes your are right. If you narrow that down to waste that is specifically managed then used to promote vegetation that may be tender than that's a whole 'nuther ball game. That class of livestock waste if very, very small.

I've been in the horse business 30+ years. I'm one of the very few I know who purposely composts stall leavings with the intent of a specific end product. The vast majority of stables I know either pay to have it hauled to a landfill--this happens closer to urban/suburban areas (Yes, cringe, I know) OR they spread it on their own fields--a case where the residual herbicide can have effects a farm manager likes! OR lastly they dedicate an area and just pile the stuff up to deal with much later. None of those situations have it coming in contact with the tender plants it's a problem for, and that's the overwhelming majorty of stuff that comes from the back end of a horse.

I live in a very horsey area. I know of two businesses that create and sell compost from horse leavings. One is a huge horse boarding facility that also produces their own hay so they are controlling the process from the beginning. The other contracts with only a few stables to collect and haul it away--I don't know how they manage the quality of hay intake--but they have told me it's a 2 year process from start to finished product which may help the situation.

"Labeling" will not solve this problem and any government official who thought it would is an idiot. The problem arises because the composter is usually at the end of a long line of vendors away from the guy who read the label in the first place. A typical bale of hay could be sprayed and cut, sold to a distributer, who sells it to a merchant like a farmers Co-op who sells it to a barn owner who sells the resulting leavings to a composter. With several possibilties of additional middlemen.

Educating livestock owners/farm managers is closer to the answer. I participate in a horse forum much like GardenWeb. It's a much more educated group than the average horse owner and the folks on that board are completely clueless that this is a problem. I did not learn about it until I came here.

It isn't the chemical. It's using the chemical without knowing its end destination--which is simply inappropriate use. If I paint manufacture used a toxic chemical in the manucturing process that they didn't know how or where it would end up that would be a problem too. I don't see that this is much different.

PBS' Nature just reran a story from years ago about the loss of frogs, toads, newts, etc. from many ecosystems as well as genetic deformitites many of these have because of the amounts of these pesticides that are being used and accumulating where these lower life forms live.
So if these products are causing genetic changes in lower life forms what might they be doing to us?

So if these products are causing genetic changes in lower life forms what might they be doing to us?
Two words: Super powers.

subk3, thank you, for showing that as a composter, it is my job to make sure the marital for & compost from a stable or cow pen is safe for vegetable use.
That everyone in the chain are aware of the use for said marital, so we can work together to make the compost safe.
What if someone dose not play ball, well then, take your ball to another court.
Change maybe slow, but knowledge of a problem is the first step in change, not more rules, that some will never adhere too.
Tox, thanks for bring the problem to the forum.

Thanks for the authoritative info from the trenches subk3. In light of all that, what we're doing is struggling with creating a needed feedback loop or information conduit that does not exist currently. That's how I would look at it from a systems perspective. That kind of thing always causes some stress for the various stakeholders.

"...what we're doing is struggling with creating a needed feedback loop or information conduit that does not exist currently."
Yes! Education and an information system.

Without all due respect, I can't really let you think I am "in the trenches." I run an operation that's only a bit more than a gentleman farming place--Mr. subk is the gentleman and I'm the farmer! (Until something breaks, then he's a master at fixing things!) We can't survive without his income from sitting at a desk 40+ hours a week. The real guys in the trenchers are the full time farmers who work harder than I even know how.

I've just been fortunate to be close enough to the working agriculture industry to have a more in depth perspective on it. That and I've shoveled lots and lots of horse manure over the years. Most of you guys here know more about composting than I ever will, but I'm more than happy to share concerning the little sliver of the subject matter that I know: horses and their $h!t! :-)

I'd like the Composting Council to run some studies on possible better ways to compost to mitigate these chemicals. Maybe longer curing times or different feedstocks. There has to be a way to break them down, we just haven't found it yet.

Lloyd