Nothing is better then making your own compost. If you buy compost buy a quality expensive brand and check the ingredients. Top soil could be just more sand or clay or just about anything. It may not blend with your native soil. It's better to fix up all your soil, not just the planing hole, as the tree will move out into the rest of the soil. It's hard to explain.

I don't think peaches would like cape cod. I had a peach tree when I moved it, but it has some horrible leaf fungus due to the climate of San Francisco being foggy. I would have sprayed that tree, but then I would not want to eat the peaches. There was no point in having that tree, so I removed it. So, don't spend a lot of money of things that won't work. If you must have a peach tree, just buy one only and see if it works first before investing a many peach trees.

Thanks for the reply. My compost is made from fish offal and woodchips. I presently have 4 palletbins ready to go. I did read about prepping the holes to 'encourage' roots to go into the original soil, but am not sure how that would apply here, since 'soil' around the hole is likely to be barren sand/gravel mix. I am willing to dig holes as large as possible (given I'll be working with a spade and wheelbarrow), and fill them with pretty much anything that makes sense. I understand prepping holes in the fall will give time for the dirt to settle prior to planting.

As to peaches, my neighbor has a couple that seem to be prolific and pretty much care-free, as he doesn't do much besides a spring pruning - definitely does not spray them with anything.
Still, I'm not hung up on peaches and would be grateful for any recommendations of fruit tree cultivars particularly well suited to Cape Cod.

I could be wrong about Cape Cod, but don't you have damp fog? The only good fruit tree for cold fog is citrus and it won't rot. If the leaves get a bad rot, the tree can't make enough food from the sun, and the fruit won't be good. The tree will be unhealthy and unsightly. Without summer heat the fruit won't set properly.The peaches were green tasteless and edible, but I had to pick out from my garden peach pits for years. They never decompose. I still find peach pits in my soil from time to time after 20 years.

If trees are growing nearby that are good, this is good sign. The reason to fix all the soil as much as you can, if some of the soil is different the soil won't blend well. The watering and drainage could be off. I amend everything in the whole garden, but if I was planting a tree, I would amend the hole extra good, then also use compost on top of all the soil.

But, still if the trees are expensive, it better to test one tree out first. If they are like Costco specials, well go crazy then.

I see lot of people put in a lot of plants and then just let it all go, when they get lazy with them.

The Cape Cod Cooperative Extension has a good fact sheet on growing peaches, and they're very helpful if you contact them.

I'm not on the Cape itself, just north of the Canal with a similar coastal climate. I spent a few weeks in San Francisco a while ago and we have nothing like those cold damp fogs here. Fog, yes, but not a daily oppressive feature.

If your neighbor grows peaches well, then you should have no problem.

Claire

We get fog maybe 4-5 days/year, mostly in April and May. Water temps around us are in the mid-high seventies now, and it's hard to get dew temperatures that high. It is relatively humid, though, with summer day temperatures peaking in mid-eighties, often 10 or more degrees cooler than the 'mainland'. Dews can get real heavy.
I AM trying to find a couple of relatively care-free dwarf trees, and I would love to hear from folks who found a cultivar that worked for them in similar conditions.

I just remembered it is Peach Leaf Curl that the peach trees get. I looked it up on the web and on wikipedia and ehow has a bunch of stuff. If you don't spray the fungus will go into the wood of the tree. I have a similar problem with roses and brown canker fungus.

I don't see how if this guy does not spray that peach trees can be free of the fungus. People often spray their gardens and not tell people so everything thinks they are organic, but the truth can be difficult to face. Apparently, it not just in foggy areas, it is all over the country.

You might get more response by posting in the Fruit & Orchards Forum. Also, your local farmers' market probably has peaches and the growers usually enjoy questions.

I know the farmer at the Buzzards Bay Farmers' Market has different varieties of peaches (grown in Dighton, MA) and is very knowledgeable.

Claire

Generally speaking, you should mix soil amendments into the existing soil rather than removing the soil completely. In particular, compost - which should be almost all organic matter - will continue to break down slowly over time, so if you replace the soil with compost, after a couple years you'll have a depression around the tree.

You can mix 1/4 - 1/3 compost with your soil and the tree will be quite happy, though.

Good luck and bring us some peaches.

:-]

Removing native soil is a good thing. I had to remove a lot fine grained sand because if you don't remove at least some of it there will not be room to add the enough compost. But, this takes time. The best way to plant a tree is to spend a few years working on the soil before planting. Later on when the soil is up to par you will be happier. It does take a while for what you added to settle in. But, it could work, I don't meant to be discouraging. This is just what would be ideal for the best possible soil.

The county agent says no.
You never dig deeper then you wish to plant, the tree should be placed on firm, undistributed ground at the bottom of the hole.
When I countered that I had planted a Moon Glow pear this way & after 8 year it was 12 feet tall & covered with fruit.
He said it will take years for the soil to seattle & the tree would be in a hole.
So you can form a donut mold, firm center & dig down around the center & add compost.
This is how I will plant my next large fruit trees.

I don't mean deeper, but fixing the soil all over the yard, but just the top layer. If you plant a tree and amend the hole and not the rest of the soil, you will get problems. There is huge long thread with like 100 replies on the subject somewhere on the soil forum, but I can't remember the name of it.

I just remembered it was called "The Myth of Soil Amendments"
It specifically deals with planting trees. However smaller plants will do very well with the all over composting plan, and I found the trees that I had got much healthier after I started composting, but I do it all over the garden, not just in the planting holes.

You can/should dig the hole wider by a good bit than the root ball but not deeper than the root ball.

Most roots do not go straight down but angle out so putting amended soil on the bottom besides causing the tree to settle is pretty much a waste of time.

Just do not disturb the center foot or so of hole bottom and go gung-ho on the rest within logical reason.

The term "topsoil" is meaninigless since it is defined only as the top 4 to 6 inches of soil. Is your soil sand, sandy loam, loam, or clay loam?
If sand then you will want to amend it well with organic matter to help that sand hold both moisture and nutrients, but if it is clay you would not want to amend the planting hole because that could create a place that hold too much water and your newly planted tree could drown.

My 'topsoil' is largely sand, (4":1/8":1/4" on the shaken jar sand:silt:clay test) but I've been working to increase organic matter to near 8% with adequate nutrients and micro-nutrients. (UMASS soil test) Below that 8" is stuff that looks like builders' sand with gravel mixed it. Think beach sand. Of course I intend to save and reuse the top 8", but the question is what to do with the seemily unproductive sand/gravel below.
Based on the comments it seems I should remove some and mix the rest with compost, but my question is really what to do when planting a fruit tree into obviously unproductive ground. I'm willing to dig as large hole as it takes, but don't know how large it ought to be and what to fill it with.

You would mix compost hopefully that you made yourself with the native soil. The ratio will depend on what the type of tree. If the tree like more compost or less compost. Research what kind of soil peach trees like and look for more ideas.

I'm glad the soil type issue was brought up because it does make a difference as stated.

If you think of the roots of a tree fanning out in all directions from the base of the trunk, then it's easy to see that the hole filled with amended soil should be a dish rather than a cylinder. I learned this from this group after planting many trees grown in cylindrical pots by digging a similarly shaped hole but much larger and deeper. Plastic pots are not shaped like natural root systems.

I make the hole about as deep as the root ball, and about 3x as wide. I add some amended soil back to the bottom, plant the tree high and mound soil up around it. But I'm in clay. With sand you may be able to plant at just about ground level since the drainage will be a lot better.

Since you're planning ahead and don't know what size trees you'll be planting and how deep to dig, you might want to contact a fruit tree nursery like Miller Nurseries and ask what size the root ball is on their dwarf peaches.

That way you'll be able to determine roughly how deep the hole(s) should be and that should also give you an idea of how wide the hole must be (using toxcrusader's rule of same depth and 3X wide). It would also be good to know the optimal spacing, so you can decide whether to amend one mini-orchard area or separate patches.

Claire

Removing native soil is a good thing.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG!! I am continually amazed at how long these unsubstantiated, mythical but widely accepted garden practices continue to be promulgated.

There is considerable scientific evidence to support the value of planting in indigenous (read: "native") soils. Trees - and shrubs as well for that matter - do not confine their root systems to the original planting hole. They extend out widely, often to several times the mature height of the plant. Obviously they will be growing into native soils (unless you remove ALL the soil in your garden and start over!) so in order to establish quickly and thrive, they should become rapidly accustomed to whatever soil exists naturally.

Amending the planting hole is another related topic that bears rethinking. Overly amending soils, especially when confined to to a pretty small planting hole, has proven to be detrimental (not beneficial) to the correct and prompt establishment of trees. There is the issue of soil interface: one soil structure around the root ball; a second in the amended planting hole; and the third that of the surrounding native soils. These different soil structures impede both good drainage and proper root development.

If you feel you must amend, it should not be as individual planting holes but over the largest area you can manage - ideally the entire projected root span of the mature tree (or shrub). And limit the amount of amending you do to only about 10-15% organic matter by total volume. And remember that additions of organic matter are only temporary anyway. Eventually they will fully decompose and you are back to what is essentially 'native' soil anyway. You will be far better served to use any desired amendments/composts as a topdressing or mulch and replace/refresh annually.

It might be of benefit for some of the posters to reread the 'Myth of Soil Amendments'.......apparently they failed to understand the point that was being made. There is absolutely no need to remove any existing soils and DO NOT AMEND INDIVIDUAL PLANTING HOLES!

Here is a link that might be useful: Myth of Soil Amendments

Depending on your soil it can take years for a tree to fully adapt.
Some come out of the gate full speed but to gamble on that happening is just that, a gamble.

Do not dispose of the dirt from the hole, use that to refill with what ever you amend it with but loosen the edges of the hole so that there are not walls.
That way the roots may find a more gradual change of soils rather that sudden change.
Always, always, always remove the twine--- and as much burlap as you can.
Never use a tree in a wire cage.

I have in my own trees often reduced the dirt ball to semi-bare root without ever having a problem as the (this is assuming you are fully aware of drainage issues) roots do not need the problem of dealing with a compressed root ball.
Main reason landscapers leave the root ball as intact as possible is for keeping the tree ar a preset planting height, assuming the hole is the correct size.

Being just down the road (and over the bridge) from the OP's location, I'm familiar with the native soil he says he has. A thin layer of sort-of-soil over a lot of sand. Not the stuff for healthy, happy tree growth.

When I moved here, I had to relocate a seven foot tall osmanthus that had been growing in that stuff for at least forty years. It was struggling to survive, not helped by being at the upper limit of its hardiness. When the arborist picked it up I was amazed that the roots were all contained in a mat about 4 inches thick and had never penetrated the sand. The arborist replanted the osmanthus in better soil and it's now about 15 feet tall and spreading happily.

gardengal is absolutely right in general, but this type of native soil will not support most ornamental plants if unamended. Unless you want to plant a pine barren.

I've been amending all planting holes with compost as I plant, and I topdress all beds with compost every fall so the surrounding soil will be improved by the time the new plant's roots get to it. In the seven years or so I've been doing this, the soil has become markedly better. I have a multitude of weeds and volunteer trees to prove it.

I just wanted to share my experience with soil very similar to the OP's.

Claire

I am not sure it should be an ALWAYS or NEVER thing. Both seem extreme and do not take into account local conditions.

In hard clay, overamending can certainly result in roots stopping when they reach the wall, or at least slowing down considerably.

The OP has sand, and I don't see how this would happen in sand. The worst problem with sand is that it's TOO porous, so water and nutrients can leach away quickly. That seems to call for some amending with organic matter, doesn't it?

I certainly can't argue with the idea of amending as large an area as possible, though.

There are just so many variables in soil conditions that it seems impossible to make a single simple rule for everybody, one which does not consider soil type at all.

Thank you Claire, you've summarized my problem neatly. Perhaps the way to look at this is to think of a container of productive soil surrounded by plant-inhospitable materials. I don't really expect the plant roots to ever penetrate thae sand/gravel much. I havce planty of native red oaks on the property that spread out like Claire says, and their roots don't penetrate the sand/gravel much.
So if I was to plant a dwarf fruit tree in a container of soil housed within the sand/gravel substrate, and to give up on expecting tree roots to eventually penetrate the substrate, how big should the tree hole be, and what should I put in it? I'm certainly willing to dig a cubic yard and fill the hole with (not quite sure what, but as much compost as seems reasonable). I can dig a bigger hole if it would make an appreciabl edifference, but I'm digging by hand.
So, how big a hole, and what should I put in it on the assumption that the original substrate is inhospitable to root penetration.

General theories can only take you so far. You need to know the approximate size of the rootball to determine what size the hole should be. Once you have that information people can argue about whether the hole should be the same depth or deeper, and whether the hole should be 2 or 3 times wider, or whatever. That's why I suggested earlier that you contact a nursery to find out the size.

Claire

What's the texture of your sand/gravel? Is it compacted and hard, or does it flow like sand, or somewhere in between? I'm guessing it's compacted and hard, since you don't think roots will penetrate. Are there any large trees around? If so they have definitely penetrated beyond a foot deep.

I lived in Albuquerque for years and the soil was like a mixture of 20% silt and clay with decomposed granite the size of kitty litter. It was so compacted it often took a pick axe to dig holes. But it is very porous. Dad and I planted sycamores (not really a desert tree!) and cedars, and those trees are huge now. Roots do have the power to penetrate.

I second the advice to also consult local experts. Not only nurseries but also the Master Gardeners or a gardening club, University Ag Extension, etc. They are likely to be more versed in local conditions.

The soil I have here is Lake Michigan beach sand and if it is not amended with lots of organic matter water will simply flow out, except where the water table is really high, and nutrients will not be held in the root zone. So amending any planting hole, or the whole platning bed is essential if I want and plant to survive. However, my sister is on a clay strata and if you just amend the planting hole you will, essentially, create a pot that will hold water because it cannot drain out through the unamended clay around it.

Since your neighbor has peaches that seem to be doing well, find out what was done there (assuming the neighbor was the planter).

Tropical thought I am with you.
I have been working up beds, not holes, since I was ten years old & forget that some people still plant with a posthole digger. I was taught to space plant so they would not touch when full size( about five-ten years). Also to work up all the soil in the bed, between the plants as well as around them, with compost or peat/dry manure. We planted tree 30 years ago & they are doing fine today.
I was talking about a single tree in 8' X8' bed, but I had dug too deep according to the agent with the PhD. But the tree is doing well after nine or ten years. I mulch with pure coffee compost & water it weekly if it does not rain.

Jolj, I really do think it's better to amend all the soil, and not just the planting hole, (even if you have sand) because the drainage will be uneven and the tree roots will leave the planting hole and branch out to the rest of the area as the tree grows. And you will probably want to have some ground cover plants or other smaller plants filling in between trees. Even you have nothing but woody mulch, the soil will be healthier even under the mulch and drain better if it is amended.

The only person I completely agree with is gardengal48. Coming from personal experience of growing peaches and citrus, this whole thread is full of FUD. Josko, please refer to the fruit and orchard forum for correct information.

Side note...If you have no experience growing fruit trees then you shouldnt chime in. No disrespect intended but I dont want a person to start a tree with the wrong info and be screwed in the long run.